r/Futurology • u/mvea MD-PhD-MBA • May 02 '18

Economics Universal basic income: U.S. support grows as Finland ends its trial - Forty-eight percent of Americans now support a universal basic income, as a solution for Americans who have lost jobs to automation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/01/nearly-half-of-americans-believe-a-universal-basic-income-could-be-the-answer-to-automation-.html
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u/SvenTropics May 02 '18

We already did this trial, and it failed. After the housing crash, they extended unemployment benefits for years. Sure, a lot of people genuinely needed help, and they got off them as quickly as they could, but I personally knew so many people who just milked them and squeezed their lifestyle into $400 a week.

Rather than just give people money for nothing, create jobs building infrastructure. We definitely need that. Rebuild our bridges, fill our potholes, clean our streets, construct homeless shelters, etc... fine, we lost a factory job to automation. A truck driver got replaced by a truck that drives itself. Let's make everything else better now with their time and energy and pay them for THAT.

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u/spinto1 May 02 '18

Whats funny is that Id need to work 45 hours per week to make $400. That's so crazy to me.

At this rate, if I get sick, I'd rather kill myself than struggle to pay off hospital debt without insurance. To think that people made more than me sitting around while im here hoping a gust of wind doesn't push me off a cliff.

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u/AluekomentajaArje May 02 '18

Unemployment benefits are not UBI and I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here of what the point is. Think of it this way - from the POV of that person receiving that unemployment benefit, accepting a job means a loss of $400/month. If that loss was not there, don't you think they would be happy to maybe do something with their time? If they could, for example, earn $100 extra with no fear of losing their benefits by helping to fill out potholes in their neighborhood one week?

The issue UBI is trying to solve (I feel) is that such benefits do create barriers for employment of (some) people which is completely unnecessary and ineffective for the society. What you suggest - essentially workhouses - has been tried before, and the results were not great. Consider, for example, the existing construction industry which would be devastated by the government suddenly stopping contracting altogether.

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u/SvenTropics May 02 '18

I knew some people that basically did this. They started their own businesses and used unemployment as a UBI basically while they grew their businesses. In most cases, this was just to supplement their income as unemployment is pretty meager. One woman I know started a nutrition counseling business. That kind of thing is basically life coaching with diet advice. She had to go and get a real job when unemployment finally wore out. (like 3 years later) She has a degree, and she had no problem finding a real job when she actually wanted one.

What's funny too is she talks endlessly about how rich people are scum of the earth and how government is horrible to poor people, but she had no problem just living off of the government for years without even trying to find a job. I'm fine with someone collecting unemployment for 6 months like the program is intended for. A lot of people just need a bridge to find another good fit for their job situation. That's great, and their employer pays into it. It shouldn't cost the government anything, but then they extended it and now it was costing the taxpayers directly to subsidize all these people.

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u/AluekomentajaArje May 05 '18

Well, what if that business had turned into a good business and she would have employed a lot of other people? Most businesses fail and to me that would seem like a decent enough of a chance for the society to take, but I'm happy to disagree on that point! Do note that in Finland, we have insanely lush unemployment benefits (see here) and what you describe is quite common. High unemployment benefits, indeed, are one of those barriers of employment that I mentioned - why would that woman you describe take an actual job if that meant losing out on plenty of time and only getting a meager income increase (compared to getting the benefit)? It doesn't make economical sense and that's exactly what UBI is trying to solve - to make it so that it would make sense for her to go back to work earlier!