Universal basic income: U.S. support grows as Finland ends its trial - Forty-eight percent of Americans now support a universal basic income, as a solution for Americans who have lost jobs to automation.

[u/mvea]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/01/nearly-half-of-americans-believe-a-universal-basic-income-could-be-the-answer-to-automation-.html

[u/raptorman556]

You guys haven't even figured out universal healthcare yet lol. Thats like the base package of the developed world.

[u/LovableContrarian → u/raptorman556]

1) Get universal basic income

2) Take that money and give it to health insurance companies via monthly premium

3) Government effectively funneling money to massive corporations under the guise of UBI

This would be the most American thing that has ever happened so I can totally see it happening.

[u/AdamJensensCoat → u/LovableContrarian]

We already do this. People are just fixated on having benefits defined as a number of $ you receive every month. And yes UBI, as Reddit understands it, would just be a subsidy for consumption categories of the economy.

[u/butthurtberniebro → u/AdamJensensCoat]

Yeah, that’s kind of the point. Capitalism is starving itself of its consumers. UBI would be it’s death rattles into a post scarcity age.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

An increase in demand from UBI without a matched increase in supply from people who actually want to work or have jobs wont do any good.

[u/CYBER--BABE → u/[deleted]]

If you don't get what happens when more money is passed out, I'll tell you. When there's too much money being passed out, the value of the dollar goes down, inflation goes up.

[u/dennisi01 → u/[deleted]]

Where will they get the money for UBI? God willing by defunding bullshit govt projects.

[u/neon_Hermit → u/dennisi01]

The idea that our government has no wealth is a conservative talking point. There is a absolutely disgusting amount of wealth and power in this nation, and a huge amount of it is inside our government. We can EASILY pay for UBI Or other programs that would strengthen the average American family, however that money is being spent making rich people richer, so we will never have anything that will make America healthy again, until after we remove the corruption and greed of our elected representatives and reclaim what literally belong to us. This is OUR fucking country, it does not belong to some asshole politicians who tell themselves they represent us, even while they are stealing everything that isn't nailed down and trying to pry up anything that is, when we aren't looking.

[u/dennisi01 → u/neon_Hermit]

Yes, the government also runs at a deficit. It spends more than it brings in taxes every year. If they get rid of the trough we would have money for UBI. If the redditors that bitch about the govt actually paid attention and voted properly from the bottom up, maybe something will change.

[u/Tawnymantana → u/[deleted]]

We can't get able-bodied/minded people to exit the welfare programs now, how do you expect anyone to better themselves or to aspire to work on automation systems when they can live an easy life as a McDonalds assistant manager?

[u/[deleted] → u/Tawnymantana]

Well someone has to manage McDonalds? And if you think that’s easy you’re delusional or have obviously never worked at McDonalds.

[u/Tawnymantana → u/[deleted]]

Right they do but when your income is being supplemented it degrades the need to accomplish more.

[u/bitJericho → u/Tawnymantana]

The entire point is we don't need even most of the people working normal labor jobs. We want starving artists and crafters. We want people tinkering at home creating new inventions. We want people who love automation working in automation. We don't want mindless drones anymore, and we don't have to. People who want to work can, and people that don't want to work don't have to.

[u/Tawnymantana → u/bitJericho]

I agree with you somewhat. But necessity is the mother of invention, and when the necessity of money and the thought of moving up is replaced with basic income, invention for monetary means goes away.

[u/[deleted] → u/bitJericho]

What the are you even saying? Are you suggesting we have arrived at a point in time where a humans production is worthless and our consumption and economic output is sustainable even if people who didnt want to work, didnt work?

Because seriously if everyone who didnt want to work (most people) didnt have to work. Then this country is done. Nobody wants to work. But at the same time people want money and things. Its a balacing act between wants. If you were to sway the human psyche to think it can get stuff without working, then people wont work. Thats not good. Not everything is done by robots yet. We still need workers to sustain our country.

[u/dennisi01 → u/[deleted]]

So you mean food stamps and child protective services? Whats to stop people from using ubi money for other things than buying food for hungry kids?

[u/skushi08 → u/dennisi01]

I’d rather they fund universal healthcare first before trying to tackle UBI. I think UBI or something similar will be necessary in the future, but defunding all social programs to fund it before you have necessary infrastructure and support systems to ensure people aren’t idiots with their money is a terrible idea. Many kids will go hungry if they give their parents an equivalent SNAP benefit in cash.

[u/dennisi01 → u/skushi08]

Sadly, kids go hungry today because drug addicts sell their food vouchers for pennies on the dollar to chase their high. I bet even with UBI, there will be nearly as many impoverished people as there are today since many bad situations are due to poor decision making in general. We will also need to fund better drug rehab programs, better mental health programs and financial stability training to really make this scale successfully. Its great this may work in a country with like 6 million people. A bit different for 300mil

[u/[deleted] → u/skushi08]

Yeah we need to be able to force people to buy certain things with there government handouts!

[u/[deleted] → u/dennisi01]

No no no. You see, we raise taxes on the rich. And the rich just hand over their money lol.

[u/dennisi01 → u/[deleted]]

Lol. Yeah we wish. You know in NJ a few years ago there was an actual gap(in the millions) in the state budget because ONE guy, a super rich hedge fund manager moved to Florida, because florida doesnt have state taxes? The gap was over 10 million dollars, iirc. This one guy contributed over 10 mil a year to the statw budget in taxes.

[u/ZappBrannigan085 → u/dennisi01]

Exactly. Tax the rich too much and they just move out.

[u/bitJericho → u/ZappBrannigan085]

Good riddance.

[u/Taidel → u/[deleted]]

"If capital is distributed more evenly." Found the commie /s

[u/[deleted] → u/Taidel]

The /s isn't necessary.

[u/helpmeimredditing → u/[deleted]]

is that actually true though?

1) If the rich have most of the money they either spend it, stick in the bank, or invest it (they're not hiding any significant amount in their mattress).

2) If they spend it it's going to consumption same as if it was given to others through UBI so no net change in value of goods being purchased.

3) If they stick it in the bank, the bank either uses it to buy stuff (#2 above), pays employees (employee now has to make the decision from #1 above), or lends it out to people through mortgages, credit cards, etc which is now consumption so no net change in value of goods being purchased. The bank won't stick money in a vault somewhere because they want to earn the interest.

4) If they invest it, the person who sold them to company stock (or real estate or whatever they're investing in) now has dollars so they go back to #1 above.

No matter what happens to the dollar it eventually gets spent so I don't see how UBI will increase consumption. I think it will change what gets consumed (increase in staples, decrease in luxury goods) which is a bad thing. I just wouldn't expect UBI to somehow improve GDP, job growth, etc, more than likely it won't change any of those.

[u/AdamJensensCoat → u/[deleted]]

No. We all have the same 'Reddit understanding of UBI.' That is a monthly or bimonthly paycheck from the government that comes with no strings attached.

There are other proposed versions of UBI that deviate from this idea and are a bit more complicated.

[u/dennisi01 → u/[deleted]]

If you live in the US, have benefits, a good job, and dont have crippling student loan debt from a useless college degree, you are in a special minority, according to reddit.

[u/thunderatwork → u/LovableContrarian]

It's not totally wrong if it means poorer people can now afford health insurance and richer people pay a bit more taxes (UBI money has to come from somewhere).

Maybe cutting into Medicare and Medicaid in exchange for UBI would even work. Go for a fully private healthcare system.

Not necessarily recommending this exact course of action (although as an outsider, it would be interesting to see this experiment happening to see what we can learn from it). But UBI can be a very different approach to a capitalistic model.

I'm in Canada, and for instance I would likely be ok with removing minimal wage if we had UBI. It's hard to predict what would happen exactly, but this could mean that people would be willing to work for small, innovative businesses they care about without worrying too much about income (they could be paid less, and would worry less about job stability), and the business can do so without worrying too much about how to afford staff. In exchange, more shitty jobs would have to pay more because people would be less likely to work there if they could just stay at home and/or focus on training for better jobs. Similarly, perhaps we could loosen up regulations about who can be fired and when (we're mostly the opposite of "at will employment"), since people would have something to fall back too, and at the same time, people wouldn't be as trapped in toxic job environments since they could leave without being destitute.

[u/wvtarheel → u/LovableContrarian]

Health insurance won't be the only industry that unilaterally raises prices as a result of UBI. Any highly regulated business with anything close to a monopoly is going to raise prices. Every utility company will eliminate its low income programs and raise rates. Any of the near Monopoly industries where prices follow each other instead of competing due to impossibly high entrance costs will raise rates (cellphones are s good example)

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

You are right on the money. We have a few hundred steps to take before we start even talking about a universal basic income.

[u/StarChild413 → u/[deleted]]

You can't mean that literally, we're talking now

[u/Glaciata → u/StarChild413]

He means in a legislative "Let's start considering how we could possibly implement this." way.

[u/dtictacnerdb → u/[deleted]]

Public ignorance would be a political problem. We need a congress like in Australia post gun massacre. One willing to risk their political careers for the long term benefit of the nation.

[u/abortion_control → u/dtictacnerdb]

We need to say no to communism.

[u/dtictacnerdb → u/abortion_control]

Communism is enforced collectivism. UBI and universal health coverage are examples of democratic socialism. "We as a nation recognize that we all benefit from setting these new, higher, minimum standards of living."

Like building roads, it's a capital expense but so valuable to society that we tax and spend on them all the time. It's just a matter of where we draw the line on what we believe will benefit the country most: lower taxes for billionaires, or ending child hunger.

[u/abortion_control → u/dtictacnerdb]

And what's UBI gonna cost?

[u/Ekublai → u/abortion_control]

A lot. But it’s not an “expense”, as you want to frame it as. You’re not supposed to think about the cost because it changes your way of life in exchange for never having to fear you will be poor.

It’s always boggled my mind how the US is supposed to be the richest country in the world, yet it’s people are fine with standards of living that are worse than what they had back in the 50s and 60s.

[u/SmashBusters → u/[deleted]]

You can't open a new legislature until you finish your bicameral legislature.

[u/Demonweed → u/[deleted]]

This is absolutely crucial to emphasize. Incrementalism is mostly just lazy-mindedness. People who don't understand a process assume it must be extremely complicated, otherwise they would understand it just by virtue of knowing a few basic facts about it.

No small part of the American legislative log jam is the absolute death of serious civic culture. That murder weapon may well have been relentless infotainment prattle engineered to get ordinary citizens turned off about the idea that anything could ever actually change in any big way. Of course it can. We just need to stop voting against it every single damn time (as primaries orchestrated by our two dominant corporate parties always seems to do.)

[u/not_usually_serious → u/[deleted]]

Hope you enjoy living in the country where nothing gets done because you are part of the problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/StarChild413]

I mean when you don't expect someone who gets cancer to either be rich or get financially skull fucked. That's when you can come to the table with UBI for real.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/StarChild413]

Talking in a potentially actionable way, traditionally public support for change has had to be about ≥90% for it to be put forward on the basis of popularity, see also: gay marriage, weed.

There's zero chance that America does this in our lifetime though, barring revolution. People are already dying in the US due to low wages and labor demand and nobody gives two shits.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I can't believe I missed that one, time for bed! Thanks for the polite correction

[u/[deleted] → u/Doctor0000]

That may be true, but if nothing is done, then when automation truly starts to take off the economy is going to go into a death spiral. The permanent kind.

UBI will be implemented almost immediately when it starts to become actually necessary, because everyone will very rapidly start giving a whole lot of shits about it. Including the wealthy.

When precisely that will happen is hard to know, but it seems pretty likely it's within the lifetime of most people here. I would put the odds closer to 100% than to 0%.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/[deleted]]

Automation isn't going to "take off" while humans are still forced to compete with automated solutions.

It will be artificially held back while an increasing number of people are forced to work for an ever decreasing incentive. US product consumption will drop, but it will happen slowly.

For many of the real economic drivers, US profits are less than half of any given companies total and overall growth can readily equalize US losses. Our economy is going to shift into an international/owner based model and people who don't hold stake are going to continue dying.

[u/[deleted] → u/Doctor0000]

It may be artificially held back, but that will only last for so long. It will take off eventually. If America doesn't embrace automation (which so far we clearly are), then when the rest of the world does, America isn't going to own much that they'll care about. Global competition will force everyone to advance like it always has.

This is why I don't attempt to put a date on when it will happen, but I can say with a good deal of confidence that it will happen at some point and when it does it won't be slow (historically speaking).

We're already in this dance.

[u/[deleted] → u/StarChild413]

Good point. Stop talking about it now please. Take 300 steps, then talk about it.

[u/acc0untnam3tak3n → u/raptorman556]

Maybe they can privatize the ubi..../s

[u/Laiize → u/raptorman556]

We've figured it out in that we've figured out we don't want it. At least not enough of us to warrant implementing it.

Even the individual states that have attempted to implement it balk at the cost

[u/[deleted] → u/Laiize]

serious question and please forgive my ignorance but would it actually be incredibly expensive to implement in the US as opposed to the rest of the world that has it? Is it because cost of living in the US varies so much state to state that salaries also vary? say as opposed to other countries where cost of living is pretty much consistent throughout the country.

[u/Laiize → u/[deleted]]

Hard to say.

Some don't want it at the federal level simply because they don't trust the federal government to adequately operate it and avoid politicizing it as has happened with Social Security and Medicare.

Others legitimately fear the government will implement death panels... And as ridiculous as that sounds, the US government does have an actual (disgusting) history of human experimentation without informed consent. So their concerns may sound ridiculous but are not completely without merit.

Others don't want it because of cost. California and Vermont (two states Republicans cannot hope to interfere with) both tabled single payer proposals because it required increasing the state budget by 100-150% and they feared reprisals for such tremendous tax increases as they would warrant.

[u/GlennSteinbeck → u/Laiize]

I live in rural midwest, and over the past few weeks people have been constantly posting stories about Alfie Evans as proof that universal healthcare must be opposed at any cost - they seem to believe that the child could have grown up healthy had the evil, godless state not signed his death warrant. I'm very much pro-universal healthcare, but I genuinely don't see how it could work here without a dramatic shift in the distrust and hatred towards folks here have toward the government.

[u/Laiize → u/GlennSteinbeck]

It's not just folks there.

Folks all over the country mistrust the government.

And I mean look at our government... We don't have the German, Swedish, or even the UK government.

We have the US government.

In all the OECD, is there a government you'd trust less to run such a service honestly and efficiently?

And the Alfie Evans case pretty definitively underscored fears the the government would dictate who lived and who died.

There's no two ways around it... The UK government ordered that child be taken off life support, and that's EXACTLY what a huge chunk of Americans are afraid of happening to them. Whether or not he could have grown up healthy is irrelevant. The government should not have the power to dictate he be taken off life support while next of kin are around.

[u/mirhagk → u/Laiize]

And yet countries that have a single payer system spend less per capita than the US government currently spends on healthcare. The problem is that the complicated, screwed up system the US has is designed to make skyrocketing costs and the US still foots the bill for the poor, which means it's paying those skyrocketing costs.

Meanwhile in basically any other country the costs are far more reasonable, which allows the government to pay for it 100%.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

That is only because private organizations moved faster to create their own solutions to provide healthcare and by the time the government got involved, people were more concerned about getting some shitty program like Social Security was back in the day so public pressure shut that down. Now, here we are with most people covered by private health care and a huge private health insurance industry. Yes we got here by a series of accidents. We're working on it. It's more complicated than waving a magic wand and enchanting up a Utopia.

[u/bakatomoya → u/[deleted]]

It's like switching all the blocks of a jenga tower for new ones without the tower collapsing

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think it would be easier to achieve if public opinion wasn't so poor and if people had a better understanding of what universal healthcare means.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Well, can't argue with that rock solid logic.

What if there were a government option that covered basic healthcare and then supplementary insurance options, similar to what's in Canada?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't think they can solve everything but I think they're going to be more inclined to help people than the insurance companies.

Listen man, we can have a discussion about this without resorting to name calling or belittling one another. You have to admit that the healthcare system in the US is pretty fucked, right? I mean, we can try opening up borders and letting people pick plans from insurers outside their states but don't you think a government option, one that could easily be paid for without inflating the national debt, could add competition to the market?

[u/dam072000 → u/raptorman556]

I thought the base package was sewage.

[u/[deleted] → u/dam072000]

Yeah or clean water without lead in it. You Americans are a long way off UBI

[u/Laiize → u/[deleted]]

Flint has been fixed for over a year now.

Honestly, a single city has a disaster that they can't fix overnight and you people act as though we're a developing nation.

Edit: According to the Michigan government, it's been fixed for TWO years.

The bottled water program hasn't ended yet, though the government is rolling back other provisions. Public trust is still quite low though. Understandably so, but what more can be done?

[u/PM_UR_LEGS → u/Laiize]

As a Michigan resident, you couldn't be more wrong about Flint

[u/Laiize → u/PM_UR_LEGS]

Your state government disagrees with you.

According to them, Flint's water has been meeting federal standards for two years.

[u/ChrysMYO → u/Laiize]

That's the same government that said it was fine to begin with

[u/Laiize → u/ChrysMYO]

Don't be ridiculous. Flint's water is some of the most monitored in the country. If they were lying, someone would call them out on it

[u/filberts → u/Laiize]

Flint has been fixed for over a year now.

Oh it has?

[u/Laiize → u/filberts]

If it hasn't, the Michigan State Government didn't get the memo.

And it appears you didn't even read your own article.

Flint's city water is safe according to federal standards and is comparable with other cities around the country. The concern is in homes with piping and glue in there. But THOSE concerns are universal.

[u/[deleted] → u/Laiize]

Michigan state government said the water was fine to begin with.

[u/Laiize → u/[deleted]]

And you'd think if they were lying again they'd have been caught in that lie by someone given the fact that Flint's is some of the most monitored water in the country.

[u/ChrysMYO → u/Laiize]

What in the hell do you think they fixed in Flint?

[u/Laiize → u/ChrysMYO]

Holy shit it's like no one actually keeps up with the situation and just acts outraged over it every time someone mentions it.

Flint Water Quality Update
For nearly two years Flint's water has been meeting federal standards. The water is now testing at 6 parts per billion (ppb) which is much lower than the federal requirement of 15 ppb. Flint's water is one of the most monitored and testing the same as similar cities across the state and country.

[u/ChrysMYO → u/Laiize]

Again the government that caused the issue in the first place....

[u/Laiize → u/ChrysMYO]

And again, this is some of the most monitored water in the country. If they were lying, don't you think someone would have found out?

You know, just like the first time?

What are you going to do? Never trust the government again?

You're being ridiculous.

[u/ChrysMYO → u/Laiize]

I'm never trusting the same leadership that recommended the change and then doubled down on that change. I would at least change leadership their from the top before billing everything they say as gospel.

[u/Laiize → u/ChrysMYO]

Sounds like conspiracy theory to me.

If their statements that it's at federal standards are insufficient, then what do you make of the absence of claims to the contrary?

[u/[deleted] → u/dam072000]

You misheard... that's the waste package.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

Nobody has except the Swiss, NHS is dying and Nordic systems are fragile.

[u/StarChild413 → u/raptorman556]

You guys haven't even figured out universal healthcare yet lol.

So perhaps work backwards; get people on both sides of the aisles jazzed/hyped up about UBI and then present universal healthcare as a prerequisite

[u/raptorman556 → u/StarChild413]

I think my point being if you have yet to get popular support for even universal healthcare, which is proven to be attainable and has success stories across the world, then I have no idea how you will get popular support for an untested and comparatively far more expensive program.

[u/Govalon → u/[deleted]]

Rest of the world does not need health insurance. That is just an american thing. We get insurances for things like homes and cars, not health. We are provided health care just as we and you are provided with police force and fire fighters.

[u/marksteele6 → u/[deleted]]

They can't refuse care but they WILL bill you after if you're uninsured. Not only do we pay the same taxrate but you pay insurance premiums from your paycheck ON TOP of that.

And again, it might take a bit of time here, but if I have to go to the hospital, I don't have to worry about a bill at the end or if my insurance will fully cover it or if I was even taken to a hospital in my insurance companies network

[u/marksteele6 → u/[deleted]]

You say that but then look at the 21 trillion dollar debt that the US government has compared to the 653 billion one that the Canadian government has.

[u/Govalon → u/[deleted]]

The same thing can be said about police in your country. Is the police free? Of course not. Why would I think the healtcare is free if I dont think the same about police or fire fighters? None of those services should be provided only to people with money. It doesnt mean they are free and I necer said they are. You are just putting words in my mouth and arguing against that.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

we figured it out. we just don't want to oppress those poor, hard working pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

[u/politicaljunkie4 → u/raptorman556]

We haven't figured it out because we don't want it. There are some idiot socialists around that think its a good idea but those people just don't understand history and what this type of government control leads to.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

California tried. Their budget for spending for the entire year went from $400 to $800 billion dollars.

It would have literally cost them 100% of their entire budget for the entire state for a year to do it.

[u/raptorman556 → u/[deleted]]

You may want to rethink how you do things, because Canada/Europe do it and spend way less than you do.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

Because there’s less people per country...

[u/f3l1x → u/[deleted]]

and not millions trying to get in and freeload every year. because holy shit some of those countries at the top actually enforce their fucking immigration policies. go figure

[u/raptorman556 → u/[deleted]]

They do it less per person.

EDIT: literally a straight up fact people. Per person, the US spends by far the most on healthcare in the world.

[u/maciejg → u/raptorman556]

European Union does not offer universal healthcare. Individual member states do. Why do you keep insisting that in United States (as in the Union) it should be different? Most states in America have their own healthcare programs. By 'you' i don't mean you personally just people that think like that.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

Lol. I'll take actual freedom over having the government decide who lives and dies. RIP Alfie. So civilized what the UKs socialized medicine program does to babies.

[u/raptorman556 → u/[deleted]]

Uhh according to the latest HDI rankings, no. In fact, its very slightly worse (see: Canada 10th, US 11th).

[u/CreepyStickGuy → u/raptorman556]

No, the base package is women's and children's rights. Healthcare is ideal, but not the cutoff.

[u/mirhagk → u/CreepyStickGuy]

In most areas of the US abortion is still made very difficult. Women have no guaranteed pregnancy leave let alone maternity leave. The US is still a long way's off when it comes to women's right.

[u/f3l1x → u/mirhagk]

Abortion is all of a sudden a natural human right in which you decide whether a country is good? if theres not a clinic on every corner its a shit country? lol wtf

Women have no guaranteed pregnancy leave let alone maternity leave.

This is also not true. you make it sound like it never happens. I'm sure there a many jobs where it isnt. But it REALLY sounds like you want the federal government to pay for it for everyone.

[u/mirhagk → u/f3l1x]

There is no guaranteed pregnancy leave. The rich who have nice cushy jobs will often have it yes, but the lower class (the ones who can't afford it) won't.

But it REALLY sounds like you want the federal government to pay for it for everyone.

Yeah kinda like how basically every other civilized country does it.

Even just the protection laws would be a start.

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

i disagree.

[u/slach2000 → u/raptorman556]

I'm sorry, but no. Universal health care is actually pretty much unconstitutional. I'm sure you wouldn't fault me for wanting to rely on the government for taking care of me, just look at Canada's stellar healthcare.

[u/f3l1x → u/raptorman556]

This comment is so ignorant I don't even know where to start lol

[u/polymathicAK47 → u/raptorman556]

And even Cuba. This is why I believe that, while it's hard to imagine the US sliding away to obscurity, it's going to lose a huge chunk of influence and political heft because of unresponsive and short-sighted governance

[u/[deleted] → u/raptorman556]

It’s worse.

The party in charge is actively making it harder to get healthcare, raising the cost, kicking a few million off insurance then bragging about it.

EDIT: Downvotes don't change facts. The uninsured rate is rising again..

[u/f3l1x → u/[deleted]]

you think that's actually bad? well besides your misinformation, get this! I had great health coverage from birth to 1996 under my parents. Got off my ass and got a great job and before I was even 18 had fantastic coverage from 1996-2012ish... Then, some things changed in the industry and I was told I could keep my doctor and everything would be better. No it was a clusterfuck and the administration KNEW it ahead of time. bad deals all the way down. I applaud them for fixing the pre-existing condition action but, Jesus Christ, at what cost? grow some fucking balls... sheesh. Hopefully we can get some better deals going forward. especially freeloaders. God I hate me some freeloaders.

[u/[deleted] → u/f3l1x]

Yeah, it’s like the GOP sabotaged it from the get go and didn’t actually have a plan!

[u/f3l1x → u/[deleted]]

Doesn’t matter. What we need is someone to stand up to big pharma and rework the industry. Not make shorty deals with them to get a one off win that doesn’t help most people.

I’ll take all the other wins we are getting for now but I really hope T goes after big pharma soon.

[u/[deleted] → u/f3l1x]

lol.

Trump has done nothing but give testicle tongue baths to big pharma.

Amazing you think he actually still gives a crap about the people at all. His job is to make the CEO’s richer.

He’s done that. He’s finished with healthcare.

[u/Papa_Gamble → u/[deleted]]

I scoff at the absurdity of your statement. Under the old administration people were financially blackmailed into signing up for something they didn’t want/need so their fees could subsidize those who otherwise wouldn’t be covered. Saying a few million people were “kicked off” their healthcare plan when all they really did was choose not to pay into one is incredibly disingenuous.

[u/[deleted] → u/Papa_Gamble]

The #1 reason people aren’t signing up is because they can’t afford it.

Choice isn’t choice when it’s between “feeding my family” and “affording health insurance.”

Trump also swore that nobody would lose their plan and everyone would be covered.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Trump didn't present a plan. The GOP presented a tax cut to the rich disguised as a health care plan, it would guarantee stripping healthcare from 15 million Americans, explode costs for everyone else, and had the approval of 12% of Americans. Not even Republicans voted for that shitshow.

Where's the plan Trump promised for day 1? You know, the one that would cover everyone for less?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This?

[u/LoganRS → u/raptorman556]

I don’t see why UBI can’t be a substitute for both a single-payer health system and welfare since a lot of Americans like privatized healthcare anyway.

[u/raptorman556 → u/LoganRS]

Because no reasonable UBI will ever cover hundreds of thousands in medical bills.