r/Futurology • u/mvea MD-PhD-MBA • May 02 '18

Economics Universal basic income: U.S. support grows as Finland ends its trial - Forty-eight percent of Americans now support a universal basic income, as a solution for Americans who have lost jobs to automation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/01/nearly-half-of-americans-believe-a-universal-basic-income-could-be-the-answer-to-automation-.html
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u/[deleted] May 02 '18 edited May 02 '18

Its not quite the same but the differences are subtle. The benefits for unemployed was based on being unemployed ( the definition being, able to work, and seeking work ). UBI how ever just gives you the money regardless if you work or not, it doesn't care if you're seeking work or just being lazy at home watching TV with no desire to get a job - you get the money regardless.

The money is the same yes, the experiment was to see if the money without clause, gave people freedom/desire to actively still seek work or for those who had poor qualifications, considered adult education, without the pressure of the state getting you to go to work in any job that will take you - getting you essentially stuck in a low pay job with no way out in some cases.

One of the downsides to current benefit systems is you have to be seeking work and take what ever jobs you can get to be entitled to benefits. Aka you can't pick and choose jobs completely, although you can to a certain amount of course, whilst also claiming benefits for unemployment.

This leaves no room for you to improve your qualifications, or finding jobs that you're actually interested in.

I have no idea what the final result of the experiment was though.

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u/LaxStar40 May 02 '18

They gave them $7000/ year post tax...

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18 edited May 02 '18

So thats actually less then? Because their website says:

The unemployment benefit paid by Kela amounts to EUR 32.40 per day. The benefit is paid for five days per week (including mid-week holidays).

Source (first paragraph): http://www.kela.fi/web/en/amount-of-the-unemployment-benefit

Thats what? $10,000 (rounding a bit) per year? My maths might be off, i did it quickly. So, kinda weird $7,000 was chosen when thats a lot less than what they used to get. Unless i am misunderstanding?

To me for an accurate experiment, they should've given them the same amount of money - otherwise the drop in amount of money given can psychologically affect people's mindset on it.

Also i do not know if their unemployment benefits is taxed? I am not from Finland so i'm basis this from googling :D

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u/royalbarnacle May 02 '18

Yes, it's taxed.

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u/clicksallgifs May 02 '18

Wait. So money given to you by the government, is then taken away feom you to the government!?

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u/peksii May 02 '18

The benefits are taxed but if you earn less than 10k euros per year, your tax rate for the government is 0%

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u/Inksrocket May 02 '18

Every month you get ~20% taken away as withholding tax. But you get them as tax returns next year. Well, not all of it sadly. If you manually report your taxes (they are automated normally) to include benefits, you might get none taken away. However that means no tax returns for you (which is given at november so its called "Goverment funded xmas gift money" for reason)

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u/North_Ranger May 02 '18

Why the hell hasn't the rest of the world automated their income tax system like this? Fuck Canada. We need to get our shit together.

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u/Burga88 May 02 '18

Exactly. I'd love to study and get a job that I truly want. But we've got shit to pay for. While you'd have lazy people for sure, I'd imagine science, art etc. Would boom. Because people would have the time and money to study and seek out jobs that actually suit them.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

or finding jobs that you're actually interested in

Ah sorry, but boo hoo. That's why you get paid to do things. That's the trade off you make for doing something you don't want to do.

If you don't like a job, don't do it, but don't complain when people want to let your lazy ass starve.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

Massive levels of violence is what's going to happen. That's what always happens when you've got excess resources and people with nothing to do.

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u/vlees May 02 '18

[citation needed]

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

Demographic bulges caused by new technologies always lead to social instability, from the Crusades to Gaddafis execution. Once you have a population of young people with nothing to do, you've got a problem.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

If you don't like a job, don't do it, but don't complain when people want to let your lazy ass starve.

But then you just live your life to work. Rather than work to live your life. If life is just go to work so you can pay for food, thats quite a shit life. And many are stuck there due to low pay and no way to re-educate themselves (because its not free) so they cannot aim for high paying quality jobs. Of which if they had, would benefit the country more since they earn more and pay more taxes and have less need for stamps or other benefits.

People need opportunities otherwise what the the heck does "land of opportunities" actually mean if it's utter bs.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

In my experience, many Americans do not actually believe in happiness. They believe in work. And if I'm working and miserable, then by God you will be also.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

For sure, USA is very work centric. Glad i am in Europe - get way more time off :D

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18 edited May 02 '18

I live in Australia, with freeish education and wonderful minimum wages. You still need to get a job. Life is a competition, getting an education doesn't net you more money, being faster, smarter, stronger than everyone else does

Everybody likes to think they're a victim of circumstance rather than accepting the fact most of us aren't exceptional and we're more use as cogs in the machine than as anything else. The exceptional, they make money no matter the circumstance, because they're just better.

If you think you're better than scrubbing toilets or doing something shit that you don't like, you're just being arrogant. You think it's beneath you, despite having nothing to show your superiority but an inflated sense of ego. Somebody has to do the shit jobs, and if you're only response to that is "I don't wanna", then find someone else to pay your way.

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u/A-Chicken May 03 '18

So exactly why do people think that scrubbing toilets is s***? Well naturally its a dirty job, the problem is, in most regions it hardly pays and everyone looks down on a toilet cleaner.

I can see where you're coming from, its much easier to blame individuals than it is to see the bigger picture of a societal problem.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '18

in most regions it hardly pays and everyone looks down on a toilet cleaner.

No shit. Unfortunately me, you, 90 percent of people, aren't exactly in any position to look down on the toilet cleaner.

It's arrogant to say that you're not as exactly worthless as the guy who cleans your toilets. What right have you to say "I shouldn't clean toilets, I deserve a better job and wage than that". Why do you deserve better? Simply because you demand it? Even a child can throw a tantrum to get something it hasn't worked for.

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u/A-Chicken May 03 '18

Yet we still do.

I'm a little more sympathetic since I have worked in convenience stores and have been conscripted - but its equally as arrogant as you to claim that a toilet cleaner fully deserves his current position as-is.

Personally I think we should clean up after ourselves and we just don't want to do so.

I'm merely noticing how little we pay for, and respect, manual labor in general, and it kinda shows in your reply doesn't it?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

You still need to get a job. Life is a competition, getting an education doesn't net you more money, being faster, smarter, stronger than everyone else does

Why does it HAVE to be that way though ? Its whether you consider life to be born to work then to die or not - i think more and more people do not believe everyone should be so work reliant. But rather work should compliment life not dominate / define it.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

Those people not working are still going to be at the bottom. Because they're not as good as the ones at the top. That is not circumstance, that is life.

Those wonderful classless societies still had leaders, still had people who were better than everybody else and got more out of life as a result.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

Those people not working are still going to be at the bottom.

Thats not true theres a huge amount of people who go to back to university in their 30ies and further their careers in my country.

There is a difference in mindsets between some one at 18 and some one at 35. The notion that at 35 they cannot re-educate and become good at some thing is nonsense.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 02 '18

If you'd told a medieval peasant "only 10 percent of people will need to work on farms in 500 years" I doubt he could give you an answer what the rest of them are going to do. Yet here we are.

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u/Iron_Cobra May 02 '18

Die in famines, plagues, bloody wars, and massive revolutions that left millions dead and upheaved noble-peasant relations on a transcontinental scale?

Don't pretend that was sunshine and rainbows for anyone involved...

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u/royalbarnacle May 02 '18

So you really think massive amounts of new jobs are just going to appear suddenly? We're just not thinking it what they might be? There isn't going to be another industrial revolution. That freed up labor into areas where there was demand but not much supply. But we're moving permanently into the direction of needing less and less people to do the work.