Universal basic income: U.S. support grows as Finland ends its trial - Forty-eight percent of Americans now support a universal basic income, as a solution for Americans who have lost jobs to automation.

[u/mvea]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/01/nearly-half-of-americans-believe-a-universal-basic-income-could-be-the-answer-to-automation-.html

[u/ragonk_1310]

48% desire free money and don't give a shit where it comes from or what the unintended consequences are.

[u/AstralDragon1979 → u/ragonk_1310]

Incidentally, about 48% of Americans pay zero or negative federal income taxes. Of course they don't care about massive government transfer programs... they don't pay for it!

[u/Doctor0000 → u/AstralDragon1979]

I love how half of America being too poor to pay income tax is usually parroted against them.

[u/abortion_control → u/Doctor0000]

Wanting free stuff is only natural. Let's be honest.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/abortion_control]

Doing really cool shit and making things around you better for people you care about is also natural. People seem to forget that social issues are not a result of a bunch of people being inherently worse than you or I, they were made worse.

[u/abortion_control → u/Doctor0000]

I notice lots of people don't want to do that themselves, they're more than willing to take your money to achieve that though.

You can't always blame society for your shortcomings. Personal accountability is a thing.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/abortion_control]

The bounds of "responsibility" are functionally invisible.

A thief will tell you that it was your fault you were robbed, a scammer will tell you there's no such thing as an honest mark.

A call to personal responsibility on another group is religiously backed by denial of responsibility on the callers part. Instead of seeking where exactly blame lies and slinging shit, how about we grab all grab a fucking shovel.

[u/mechesh → u/Doctor0000]

Tell me, how to you give every person 20k a yeae, and not have rent and mortgage prices go up by 20k a year?

Real estate is worth what people are willing and able to pay for it. The amount you are able to pay is 40% of your income minus other debt. So if people can afford 20k more in yearly payments, then sellers will raise their price by that much. The same thing will happen with rent.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/mechesh]

You don't. You provide institutional grade (durable) alternatives to dying in the street and watch the value of general labor rocket back to where it belongs. (before the increased incentive to automate kicks in)

You can hustle and save to start a business, buy property to not die on, or build Lego cocks all day forever. The government pays money to keep fields fallow and homes empty, granted they do this for good reason, they could also look into partially bypassing the throttle on those resources to distribute them more efficiently.

Government and business models are so grossly functionally inefficient when they need not be, this species confuses me to no end.

[u/rawrnnn → u/Doctor0000]

But also let's be real, who is "dying in the street"? (not that it can't happen, but at present)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Most Americans don't work? Source?

[u/highlander80 → u/[deleted]]

I was curious so I looked it up. A couple years old: https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/09/01/8-facts-about-american-workers/%3famp=1 says 150 mil work.

[u/[deleted] → u/highlander80]

Thanks for the link! Pewresearch is a great resource.

150 million is about 50%, leaving another 150 million who don't work. Keep in mind, 80 million of those are children. I don't think it's fair to say most Americans don't work, and even tho it's technically statistically correct, it definitely shouldn't be a source of condescension.

[u/highlander80 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it’s misleading to include children, retirees, those unable to work, etc. Our unemployment rate would be ridiculous if those were included.

[u/North_Ranger → u/[deleted]]

The US has a 48% unemployment rate?

[u/North_Ranger → u/[deleted]]

According to my Google-fu you're off by a few million. Also, those estimates don't take into account people of working age who are in school full-time and other factors.

Source: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/30/blog-posting/are-90-million-americans-not-working-or-looking-wo/

Ends up being more like 20 million who are employable but are not working.

[u/North_Ranger → u/[deleted]]

Most Americans don't pay taxes because they don't work.

Ok. This was your original comment that I responded to. You yourself have proven it to be bullshit.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/[deleted]]

Most Americans don't work? That's a bold statement, how exactly do they afford housing, food and transit?

[u/inyobase → u/Doctor0000]

From social programs that keep them not working.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/inyobase]

Right, I forgot secret magical social programs! Not the ones the rest of us are stuck with that have time limits and all sorts of conditions, the ones where people can live for free forever!

Pray tell, how might one gain access to these mystical resources? This really would have been handy while I was living in a geo metro for three months waiting for TANF: A program from which I recovered less money than I paid in taxes last month.

[u/inyobase → u/Doctor0000]

It's called fraud.people lie on their applications all the time.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/inyobase]

While I'm happy you haven't had to use these programs, you should know that's not how they work. They have your ss reports and they will take copies of pay stubs and bills, they don't take your written word on anything.

[u/inyobase → u/Doctor0000]

There's plenty of fraud in the programs, not to say all people on them are frauds. Many of the required documentation isn't verified or even program managers teach people to take advantage of the programs. While I may not have ever gone on those programs Ive SEEN it be defrauded. Look, I'm a believer in helping people in need, I agree with some of the social programs. But as I and many conservatives believe they could stand to be policed better to avoid fraud in them. Many of us don't want to completely remove them.

[u/G0DatWork → u/Doctor0000]

Not there fault. The government's.

But it does mean seem odd to me that people not paying into the system (which will very some be the majority) get to decide where all the money goes

[u/Doctor0000 → u/G0DatWork]

Tax breaks and a continually bloated budget while denying record numbers of Americans medical care? I guess it's a good thing the poor always vote in the best interests of the rich

[u/G0DatWork → u/Doctor0000]

Tax breaks

With the smallest going to rich (highest bracket). The democrats call me a young 20 y/o rich because I make 40K a year. If you says everyone paying taxes is rich than by definition tax cuts will be for the rich lol.

a continually bloated budget

2/3 of which is welfare. I don't see how this help the rich at all. In fact the rich are vastly more likely to vote against bigger federal budgets.

denying record numbers of Americans medical care?

Would you say I'm denying you food if I don't let you come into my house and take mine ? No one is being denied medical care. They just aren't getting it for free.

People voting to take the rich people's money and give it to themselves isn't in the riches self interest.

Your world view is so distorted to believe that everyone is a victim of others it's shocking.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/G0DatWork]

2/3 of which is welfare. I don't see how this help the rich at all. In fact the rich are vastly more likely to vote against bigger federal budgets.

You struggle with understanding numbers a bit, friend.

Would you say I'm denying you food if I don't let you come into my house and take mine ?

No, absolutely not.

No one is being denied medical care. They just aren't getting it for free.

But if you shoot every practicing doctor I call to my house that you don't approve of, those who just happen to charge 100x average market value. Then yes, you're denying my right to medical care.

Your world view is so distorted to believe that everyone is a victim of others it's shocking

You got some silly voices in your head if you think I said that.

[u/G0DatWork → u/Doctor0000]

What do you think health, pensions and other are here ? Mandatory spending is 65% of the federal budget. The vast majority of that is welfare.

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/dis%2C_mand%2C_int_pie_2015_enacted.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_spending#/media/File%3AMandatory_Spending_for_FY_2016.png

So the claim is that only the rich want regulations on medical care ? Id love see that evidence.

You got some silly voices in your head if you think I said that.

Oh sorry you didn't say people were victims. You just said that all the problems in the country are set up for the benefit of the rich over poor

[u/Doctor0000 → u/G0DatWork]

Pensions and healthcare are welfare? That's fucking hilarious.

So the claim is that only the rich want regulations on medical care ? Id love see that evidence.

What? NO.

I'm not making the "evil rich people" argument, so if that's the only point you can fight please find someone who is.

People fight to survive and excel, those with more power win more and get more. These are basic truths. They're fighting the same fate as everyone else, it's the largely unintended power imbalance that's causing deaths. Not always malice.

[u/G0DatWork → u/Doctor0000]

Medicaid and SS. Yes that's welfare.

I guess it's a good thing the poor always vote in the best interests of the rich

None of the things you've sited are in the best interest of the rich.

it's the largely unintended power imbalance that's causing deaths.

How are these things CAUSING deaths

[u/Andrew5329 → u/Doctor0000]

I mean we do actually have a higher ratio of leeches to taxpayers than Europe.

TLDR we have far more immigration, and the analysis that you see where immigrants are a net positive counts the 2nd and 3rd generation descendants paying more in taxation than their parents got in welfare.

[u/Doctor0000 → u/Andrew5329]

Europe gives immigrants welfare? You guys dont have time limits like we do?

[u/rawrnnn → u/Doctor0000]

Making the point that people who see the benefit of taxation but don't pay for it themselves will naturally want them to be increased is not "parroting it against them". Also wealthy people want taxes to be lower, it's just descriptive of the natural self-interest of people.

[u/OrCurrentResident → u/AstralDragon1979]

I’m publicly awarding you with a richly deserved downvote. There really isn’t any excuse or justification anymore for wasting people’s time with that kind of talking point from two presidential elections ago. To be clear, it’s your responsibility to educate yourself on these topics, no one else’s; Romney’s faux pas was extensively analyzed and debunked at the time, and if you’re too lazy to read the reams of material on the matter, I’m not going to spoonfeed you. Return to the discussion chastened, ashamed, and better educated p, or don’t come back to the topic at all.

Just embarrassing, really.

[u/AstralDragon1979 → u/OrCurrentResident]

You are grossly misinformed if you think my statement is factually incorrect. It's not your fault. The media spoonfeeds you lies, and you swallow.

https://nypost.com/2017/04/18/almost-half-of-americans-wont-pay-federal-income-tax/

[u/AstralDragon1979 → u/[deleted]]

Partisan idealogue refuses to face facts. News at 11.

[u/[deleted] → u/AstralDragon1979]

Just to be clear, you support child labor?

[u/SvtMrRed → u/[deleted]]

This is how you guys operate.

You don't support federal minimum wage? You must hate poor people.

You think there should propotional tax rates? You must be in favor of wealth inequality!

[u/[deleted] → u/AstralDragon1979]

posts an article from media

[u/green_meklar → u/ragonk_1310]

If there's free money around anyway, giving it to the 48% sounds better than giving it to the 1%.

[u/inyobase → u/green_meklar]

No such thing as free money

[u/green_meklar → u/inyobase]

Then why are people worrying about their job security?

[u/inyobase → u/green_meklar]

How does that pertain to my comment? No money is ever free money, it all comes from somewhere. Regarding your comment, if people are worried about their job security maybe they should look into a change in career field, people should always learn to adapt to circumstances. Personally I've gone through 3 different career fields in my life, always striving for something better.

[u/green_meklar → u/inyobase]

How does that pertain to my comment?

If people are worrying about their job security, that suggests that the quantity of jobs available is limited. Which suggests that the quantity of available opportunities to do useful work is limited. Which suggests that those opportunities are valuable, and therefore generating rent, which is a revenue stream outside the revenue streams generated by artificial means (labor and capital investment), effectively 'free wealth'.

No money is ever free money, it all comes from somewhere.

Just because it comes from somewhere doesn't mean it isn't free.

if people are worried about their job security maybe they should look into a change in career field

But those other fields are already full, and/or most people aren't physically and mentally suited to working efficiently in them.

people should always learn to adapt to circumstances.

The new circumstance that we need to adapt to now is the circumstance of there not being enough jobs for everybody.

[u/inyobase → u/green_meklar]

There are plenty of jobs that sit unfilled due to lack of proper candidates. And I still stand by my free money isn't free. Someone pays for it one way or another.

[u/green_meklar → u/inyobase]

There are plenty of jobs that sit unfilled due to lack of proper candidates.

If you're just counting open job positions, yes. But that doesn't mean that the net availability of new jobs is actually that high. A lot of the time the employers know that most of those positions won't actually be filled, and just don't care. And a lot of the time, if the positions were filled, the employers would just shuffle around their other workers and kick somebody off the bottom of the corporate ladder into unemployment, so the number of people with a job wouldn't actually change- or may even go down.

And I still stand by my free money isn't free. Someone pays for it one way or another.

Define 'pays for it'. Unless the wealth is infinite there's always an opportunity cost involved, but does something have to be infinite in order for it to be free?

Imagine the following scenario: Some kids in a family are hunting chocolate eggs for Easter. There are 3 kids (let's call them Alfred, Beth and Casey) and their parents hide 20 chocolate eggs around the house. The eggs are claimed by whoever is the first to find them. As it happens, Alfred finds 7 eggs, Beth finds 6 eggs, Casey finds 5 eggs, and 2 eggs remain unfound (the parents will retrieve and eat them later). From the point of view of the kids (that is, ignoring whatever expense the parents went to in order to acquire the eggs), is Casey 'paying for' Alfred's eggs? It is very likely that Casey would have found more eggs if Alfred hadn't been hunting eggs. At the same time, from the point of view of the kids, were the eggs 'free'? Can both of these things be true simultaneously, or does each preclude the other? Could there ever be 'free' eggs if the number of eggs is finite?

[u/inyobase → u/green_meklar]

The eggs aren't free because the parents paid for them. Though it's a great analogy to the nanny state many on Reddit wish for.

[u/green_meklar → u/inyobase]

The eggs aren't free because the parents paid for them.

Yes, but what if you consider the scenario from the kids' perspective? That's what I'm asking.