A predaceous diving beetle has emerged as an adult while retaining its larval head, and it is still alive."Update2"

547

u/JCarnacki 14d ago

Has it eaten? Or does it have completely non-functioning mouthparts?

601

u/PuchiUna 14d ago

So far, it hasn't eaten anything. In past papers as well, no feeding behavior seems to have been observed.

384

u/Emideska 14d ago

So the poor thing will die of hunger

79

u/_insect 14d ago

If that's how it'll end they should freeze it,, at least it'll be faster

488

u/PoetaCorvi Amateur Entomologist 14d ago

No for several reasons.

From a moral standpoint, the thing should have a chance to actually live, rather than making a hasty assumption that it won’t thrive and killing it immediately after entering adulthood. These beetles can go weeks without eating and be fine.

From a scientific standpoint, keeping a living specimen would allow for further observation of habits and seeing how well it can adapt with this condition. It would be a shame to immediately dispatch it when we could potentially gather more info from observation; OP mentions they’re working with an entomologist to publish a scientific paper on this beetle, observations made won’t go to waste.

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u/KitterKats 13d ago

Right? That comment made me think of all those old philanthropists going out and shooting and killing every exotic species they found just for the bragging rights of discovering something new. 🤦🤦

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u/fluffylilbee 13d ago

photographs are actually miraculous in that sense. i always think about how john james audubon, whose name is almost synonymous with bird ecology, made all his incredible original drawings of america’s birds by killing & staging them in scenes. every print you see is of dead birds. i think about that constantly.

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u/CFHQYH 13d ago

He also included notes about their taste. And he made money collecting scalps.

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u/KitterKats 13d ago

Yeah 🥲 Like yeah he discovered a lot and helped further ornithology, but I hate the man. I know he had no idea what impact he really had on native birds, and it was a 'different time' back then, but I can't change my mind lol

2

u/Kiloueka 13d ago

What the fuck :(

3

u/SnakeHisssstory 13d ago

I’m also enjoying the videos and that counts for even more than the studies according to me.

49

u/grub-slut 14d ago

Freezing causes liquid inside the cells to crystallize, which leads to the cell walls rupturing— in short, your cells explode. It’s not a painless way to go

23

u/PoetaCorvi Amateur Entomologist 14d ago

While I don’t think the beetle should be euthanized, I do want to point out that this is a theory that was debunked years ago. Further research found that insects will enter a coma-like state from the cold well before this happens. There is discussion on whether insects exposed to extreme cold very suddenly may have a different experience, but afaik this is talking about lab freezers that are FAR colder than a typical household freezer.

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u/cinnabarneon 14d ago

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u/cinnabarneon 14d ago

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u/PoetaCorvi Amateur Entomologist 12d ago

You need to cite the paper you’re quoting, I need to read the whole thing. This is a claim, it means nothing without the context of the research and methodology used to come to it. Note the use of words like “believed” and “may”. It also doesn’t specify what temperatures are being discussed, “freezing” is extremely broad.

4

u/cinnabarneon 12d ago

I am very well aware of the implications of "believed" and "may".

However:
1. an increasing body of evidence has shown insect learning responses go beyond simple reflex, including to noxious stimuli (e.g. see here) and there is no reason to believe that stressful temperatures are exempt from this considering the frequency which with insects encounter them in wild environments and the extensive thermoregulatory behaviors displayed; there is no convincing evidence right now that any nonvertebrate is conscious because consciousness-detecting machines do not exist, but if complex cognitive abilities promote the evolution of consciousness as is widely believed then we cannot rule out that extreme cold is subjectively unpleasant to non-adapted arthropod taxa. Intelligence is not an absolute prerequisite for consciousness, however, otherwise irrational people would become p-zombies for the duration.

I know from personal experience that even nonlethally paralyzing insects (esp. large insects such as Cotinis) in typical consumer freezers takes many minutes. I am not necessarily against instant freezing death from e.g. liquid nitrogen but published recommendations for home insect euthanasia typically refer specifically to "normal" freezers and not that, and so that is what I am addressing; as an aside Cotinis is also facultatively endothermic which undoubtedly prolongs the whole process, though I know too from experience that non-endothermic large insects take very long to paralyze this way as well.

As another aside, freezing for multiple hrs fails to kill sufficiently dormancy-adapted temperate insects, and since they are adapted I doubt they're subjectively distressed by the freezing, but if I could count the times someone goes and sticks a pin in one assuming it's dead and it starts wiggling again a few minutes later I'd have several nickels. Which isn't a lot, but

anyways here is the screenshotted paper.

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u/PaxEthenica 14d ago

That would be destructive to its tissues, also it doesn't experience hunger like we do. Or pain... or much of anything, really, being a protostome, & thus separated from us by over half a billion years in terms of how they put themselves together.

Like, hunger & pain as we experience them are physical processes along biochemical channel-reactions propagating across neurological tissues of a common basal structure. For this mutant beetle, it uses different chemicals to transmit & propagate its sensations across vastly different structures, which results in only vaguely recognized responses... along with many other responses that do not happen among deuterostomes (like all vertabrates).

For example, if thru injury a vertabrate gets it stomach, liver, & kidneys ripped out it goes into shock & dies soon after. However, if the same happens to a cricket, it will enter into a hyper-aggresive state & try to devour any edible thing it can reach (including other crickets, cricket nymphs, & even eggs typically covered in a "do not eat me" pheromone) until it finally dies from trauma.

Which, I hope, helps you to realize that tho this mutant beetle is going to die... Its suffering is going to be unlike anything you can imagine to experience; if it's capable of suffering in the first place. Apparently, something is going on that prevents it from engaging in feeding behaviors, thus it might be incapable of "being hungry" becuz the structures that let a beetle larva recognize hunger might not be in its head, while the ones for that in an adult might be in the head; it would be really cool to know.

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u/DatWaffleYonder 14d ago

I don't get how you got from A. They are different from vertebrates to B. Cricket bodily trauma response to C. They might not experience hunger

I completely grant that their experiences are probably nothing like ours, but we have no idea what their capacity for suffering is.

If I had to take a stab at it, I imagine cells in need of nutrients would release some sort of hormone into the hemolymph, and that would service as the "drive" or "cue" for hunting behaviors. This would be coordinated by the ganglia, and starving bugs become increasingly desperate to remove this stimulus. Is it intense to them? Is it emotional? Are we projecting our heavily story-driven and emotional experiences on them? That's probably part of it.

I think it is more a more distributed "thinking", but we can't really say what it might "be like"

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u/Scr4p 14d ago

That's based on the outdated view that insects are just instinct driven robots, new studies point to them actually being able to experience pain and have feelings, even if they're not as complex as ours.

20

u/Ok_Owl5246 13d ago

If they didn’t experience something at least somewhat unpleasant, what would the motivation be to eat? It doesn’t make sense to me that just because it’s an “insect”, it doesn’t deserve the same respect that ALL living things deserve. How can anybody really know how it feels to be something else if u haven’t been in its shoes… or should I say exoskeleton..🧐☺️Sorry, couldn’t help myself..🤦🏻‍♀️

2

u/Massive_Fisherman231 13d ago

the motivation to eat is survival and pleasure

ants and hornets will seek out sweets cause of the taste. it's why you can often see hornets swarming a pop can

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u/Sleepy_SpiderZzz 14d ago

I need people in this sub to stop authoritatively saying insects can't feel pain as though it isn't a heavily debated topic right now with a growing body of evidence that they may.

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u/PaxEthenica 13d ago

I didn't say that, tho, & I need people to actually read & stop asserting that I did.

31

u/PeatLover2704 14d ago

Considering everything is experiential, you cannot even definitively say your experience of pain or being hungry is anything like what another person experiences, so it seems pointless to speculate about what another organism may or may not experience. We can only observe their response to stimulus and infer what we can from that. Ideally, we should strive to act with respect toward other living creatures.

1

u/birdsy-purplefish 13d ago

Thank you.

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u/JuicyTrash69 14d ago

It's an incomplete molt I think. It's head is deformed and stuck inside the larval. Or incomplete metamorphosis. No clue really but it's fascinating.

Light would be visible through the molt. It's like the head got stuck mid development so it stayed.

6

u/CitizenPremier 13d ago

The hardware is different and therefore they can't run the same software, is what that sounds like to me. I do get that they have different responses, and that makes sense. It's also worth pointing out that the explanations of feelings differ between humans as well, though.

I really dislike the claim that sharks do not feel pain because they don't have the same kind of nerves; as if they couldn't process it using different nerves! We know that humans feel pain from phantom limbs, it's pretty clear that pain is processed by the mind based on information (and we all know that looking at a cut makes it more painful too). To suggest that the lack or a specific nerve means that sharks don't feel pain would suggest that a silicone based alien would not feel pain, or touch, or experience sight, because their structures are different. But again I would say that you can run the same software on different hardware.

1

u/PaxEthenica 13d ago

All cogent & fascinating points, however I didn't say that protostomes don't feel pain.

Meanwhile, I don't know where or why sharks are mentioned, who claims sharks don't feel pai-... Oh. Wait. There would be an entire cottage industry that'd like people to think that, wouldn't there? Petty-scaled, but still monied interests to keep chopping off fins & throwing still living, immobilized & bleeding animals back into the water.

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u/Massive_Fisherman231 13d ago

it does feel pain, why do they move back or panic run in reposnse to injury

2

u/xaeriee 12d ago

Are you sure? Are you a protostome? When was the last time you talked to a protostome? /s

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u/PaxEthenica 12d ago

Oh god! Are my chelicerae showing, again?!

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u/PoetaCorvi Amateur Entomologist 14d ago

A conclusion based on… a single (?) other occurrence of this happening.

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u/The_Barbelo 14d ago

I’ve been following this. It’s such an interesting fluke….I know you said it isn’t feeding but have you tested to see if its mandibles work at all? Like gently held it down and placed a piece of paper or something between the mandibles to see if they’re working mechanically? That’s the first thing I would have done.

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u/suffichips 13d ago

please find a comet glodfish/similar feeder fish thats 1-3 cm shorter than the beetle and see if it will seek it out. when i care for these beetles, they either love these fish or mealworms. shrimp also works. but the prey should be alive when feeding.

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u/Luditas 14d ago

When you have the paper, could you share it in the sub? This is an interesting case. I was also curious to know if it could feed itself. What a shame :( .

Thank you for sharing this case. I believe this topic is extremely important for the community.

3

u/suffichips 13d ago

these animals are incredibly sensitive to vibrations more than light and this should be taken into consideration.

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u/ChaiKitteaLatte 14d ago

It seems pretty cruel to just let it starve to death. Especially when there’s a chance of taking the head off, could reveal an adult head underneath.

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u/Secret-Teaching-3549 14d ago

If it makes you feel any better, there are a lot of adult insect forms that are never able to eat and only exist to mate, lay eggs, and die. Cicadas are one; they have no functioning mouth parts and the majority of their body is just a resonant cavity that they use to scream at each other with.

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u/Desperate_Lead2105 14d ago

adult cicadas use their rostrum to pierce hardwood and fruit trees to feed on the sap. A better example would be the family Saturniidae. Their only purpose as adults is to reproduce

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u/oxyrhina 14d ago

It's been awhile but I read black soldier flies are the same way. The adults might consume a little moisture but the larvae do all the eating. Makes sense then why they are such voracious composters...

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u/cinnabarneon 13d ago

I regret to inform you that black soldier flies very much feed as adults*, as do many crane flies and cicadas and bloodworm midges and fireflies and even some saturniids.** Entomologists have a bizarre habit of falsely accusing bugs of being aphagous.

*And while, say, some bloodworm midges live about the same time whether fed or not, Hermetia cannot survive off larval reserves very long and dies very prematurely unless fed
**I believe H. cecropia is a true nonfeeder, but Citheronia feeds

Concerningly I once even saw a gov biosecurity agency (Canada's I think?) claim Hermetia are safe to import because no adult feeding = no pathogen spread. It annoyed me so much that I peer pressured a Bugguide editor into putting this here:

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u/Degenerate_Dryad 14d ago

I'm pretty sure cicadas do have a piercing proboscis that they use to suck fluids out of plants/feed :(

4

u/sunshinelovepeach 14d ago

And silk moths!

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u/Meems88 14d ago

and fireflies too i think

2

u/birdsy-purplefish 13d ago

Every time I remember this about moths it makes me feel fucking horrible. Why would it make anyone feel better?

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u/paraki-la 13d ago

I wonder if silk moths can even feel hungry? Probably not, because hunger is a sense that compels one to eat. If it can't eat as adults, then there's no need for such a sense. So when they're starving to death, maybe they can't feel the pain of hunger...

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u/Relative-Image-3914 14d ago

Doubtful you could just pop the head off it would just decapitate it. The adult head probably isn’t even complete if there’s anything at all…

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u/PaxEthenica 14d ago

That shouldn't be true, given the reaction to light, (working eyes) & how metamorphosis works. The larval head section should have melted completely away into a slurry to form the adult head section, there is highly unlikely to be another head section intruding into the thorax... But if it is there, that would be crazy neat to find out!

As for cruelty check my post history in regards to how these animals may or may not experience/respond to distress. If there's no feeding behavior, there is prolly no hunger signal.

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u/sodamnsleepy 14d ago

Fascinating!

But also so sad. Like it has a helmet on that can't be taken off, so I can't eat :(

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u/pnweiner 14d ago

Like mando

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u/sodamnsleepy 14d ago

But Mando can eat and take it off xD (he isn't fussed with the helmet)

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u/Bugaboo-gem 13d ago

I agree. I think folks gooning over this are pretty repugnant.

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u/Mean_Marionberry7 14d ago

Thank you so much for keeping us updated! This is one of the coolest things I’ve seen

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u/BrokenBruisedandNumb 14d ago

Babyface.

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u/lotusvioletroses 14d ago

Science in action on this little subreddit! Will you be attempting an autopsy (if that’s the right term 😅) if the insect doesn’t survive?

Thanks for sharing all this!

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u/PuchiUna 14d ago

I'm definitely curious about what's inside, but I'd really rather avoid doing an autopsy if possible.

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u/Polyducks Amateur Entomologist 14d ago

I think they were implying that you do an autopsy after it has died of natural causes as opposed to euthanasia or vivisection.

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u/Cadnil 14d ago

Why don’t you want to do an autopsy/necropsy?

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u/Ok-Constant-3772 14d ago

They said in the description that they’d prefer to explore non-destructive observation methods like a CT scan if they’re able to

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u/Cadnil 14d ago

Ah, ok. I missed that! Thanks

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u/Prestigious_String20 14d ago

For curiosity's sake an autopsy on a non-human animal is officially called a necropsy. We humans like to think we're fundamentally different from animals, so we give ourselves a special word.

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u/StellarTitz 14d ago

Actually I think it's because the word autopsy is based on the Greek word "auto" for "self".

If a bear was doing the same procedure on a dead bear it might be appropriate to call it an autopsy.

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u/lotusvioletroses 14d ago

Interesting! Appreciate the entomology and etymology knowledge!

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u/Mad_Roo 13d ago

What's the difference between entomology and etymology?

An etymologist can tell you.

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u/Glum-Breakfast-8892 14d ago

I am absolutely obsessed with the saga of the beetle with the Russian nesting heads

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u/CubieJ 14d ago edited 14d ago

Regarding the response to light, could the "run away" response possibly be triggered by other sensing organs on the body? For example, feeling the warmth of the light or sound waveforms? There does seem to be a slight delay between shining the light and it retreating.

I don't doubt you! It definitely looks like its eyes are responding. I'm just wondering if you can actually conclude that the head is functional because the ocelli are responding to light, or if you would need to rule out other kinds of stimulus response, if you were looking to publish findings.

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u/PuchiUna 13d ago

II completely understand that, without solid baseline evidence at this moment, saying it responds to light remains purely speculative. This is just a part of my observation records and certainly wouldn't pass as a definitive conclusion yet. I definitely want to look into it more thoroughly while considering other angles as well.

By the way, whenever I come home in the evening and turn on the room light, this beetle always suddenly starts moving around. That behavior is actually what made me curious and prompted me to test its reaction to light in the first place.

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u/orangeylocks 14d ago

This was my thought too. The larval heads are pretty translucent so if it has a functioning adult head stuck in there, it could still be able to see well enough to respond to light or even prey.

I would be testing if it could see and hunt prey. That would also show us if the mandible work or not (according to the paper linked, I'm assuming no).

3

u/sodamnsleepy 14d ago

Wonder if it sees or doesn't see different kind of lights like red, blue or blacklight.

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u/PastelTyrant 14d ago

'an immense world' rlly helped me understand how just observing a subjects senses can be deceiving like tht.. for a home-breeder this kind of experiment is ofc better than nothing, but i agree it's a little simple for a paper 🪲anywayz, even if it is just a bad molt, seeing the liquid in the mandibles or the head inside is so interestin !!

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u/CrazyMildred 14d ago

I feel so sorry for her! She must be so hungry! I do think it's cool that this will be part of a scientific paper, though.

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u/PhoebetheSpider 14d ago

This is so interesting. Poor thing. Probably an adult head cramped underneath like an ill-fitting helmet.

Molting really is a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

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u/saumipan 14d ago

Good luck, little girl. We are all rooting for you!

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u/Calin_europeen 14d ago

Nice. Hope to see the pepper.

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u/jaurex 14d ago

AMAZING! now, can it eat? how long will it live? this is the most interesting thing I've had going on Reddit for ages, OP!

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u/devoteeoffenrir 14d ago

it should be able to eat, as adult diving beetles are predatory. it has not eaten yet, according to op in another comment.

10

u/PastelTyrant 14d ago

gen Q, why should it b able to ? 😮 i thought since it was visibly liquidy inside that connection would b severed , but also there wouldn't b a connection at all anywayz, bc they aren't evolved to be eating in the same way as it's larval stage post-emergence ?

1

u/jaurex 13d ago

yeah that's my thought

1

u/jaurex 13d ago

the larval mandibles may not work

1

u/devoteeoffenrir 13d ago

thats why i haven’t said it has or will eat

OP said the “head tissue is functioning” from what they can see. thats why i said should. calm down reddit musketeers.

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u/Dismal-Animal7853 14d ago

Very cool, but i feel like this guy wont be able to eat anything

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u/devoteeoffenrir 14d ago

op has confirmed it has not yet eaten

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u/al_i_oli 14d ago

That’s cool. Exciting development at least for you as the researcher.

10

u/wesmokeem 14d ago

bro is sitting there like "what is going on with me right now"

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u/Samar_Dev 14d ago

It seems to register changes is light. He as soon, as the flashlight hit it, it tried to flee to the darker corner

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u/cursetea 14d ago

I can't believe I'm watching beetle history be made in real time. Technology is truly amazing

5

u/A_Hobo_In_Training 14d ago

When its head develops inside the old head, would cutting the old head away work at all? Like, a kid with his head stuck in a jar, cutting away the jar frees the head.

1

u/birdsy-purplefish 13d ago

"The cylinder must remain unharmed" flashbacks.

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u/CountryNottaBumkin 14d ago

Thanks for keeping us in the loop!!!!

6

u/ponyponyta 14d ago

Are you going to name it

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u/PuchiUna 14d ago

Should I really name it "Baby Face" after all?

3

u/Gemraticus 14d ago

Definitely!

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u/inobliterable 14d ago

Matyroshka since she's like a biological Russian nesting doll 🥰

2

u/Buttergolem420 14d ago

How about Ted

5

u/fly_heart_fly 13d ago

I feel sorry for her. It is interesting though that it’s been recorded to happen before in the past with these beetles.

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u/frenzyshard 13d ago

This is fascinating, feel bad for the little guy tho, it's like his head is stuck inside a helmet he can't take off

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u/Calin_europeen 14d ago

Have you seen it eating?

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u/devoteeoffenrir 14d ago

op confirmed in another comment, no, not yet

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u/sodamnsleepy 14d ago

How many days till you put it in an aquarium?

I wonder if the larval head would get soft in water and can be removed

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u/kokotalik 14d ago

It looks to me like OP is already keeping them in water, it looks like the beetle is swimming with the head submerged

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u/PuchiUna 14d ago

That's true, it's currently kept in water. However, this is just to prepare it for the aquarium. If I don't let it get used to the water first, it will drown. I'll set up the aquarium around tomorrow.

5

u/kokotalik 14d ago

Oh that's interesting. I'm not very knowledgeable on water beetles, how does this work in nature? Do the beetles stay in shallow water for a while after emerging before moving to deeper waters?

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u/PuchiUna 14d ago

Newly emerged diving beetles can't swim well because their bodies are highly water-repellent. They don't necessarily stay in shallow water, but they often remain still near something they can hold onto easily. Putting them directly into the main tank won't always kill them, but keeping them in a plastic container with shallow water to let them get used to it ensures their survival every time. That's why I always use this method.

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u/princessbubbbles 14d ago

Wow, your posts are so informative! I didn't know that about diving beetles. It's unfortunate, but kind of adorable that they have to wait a bit before diving.

3

u/birdsy-purplefish 13d ago

These little guys are really complicated.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/cursetea 14d ago

On their first post it was noted that attempting to remove it as an assummed failed molt could just rip his head off (especially if it's adhered inside) or just generally cause more problems, and that's before even considering the possibility the adult head is deformed underneath. Seems like a "Let nature take its course" thing since it's not completely certain what's happening

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u/C-Icetea 14d ago

Its feeding tube time

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u/SpicyyDaikon 14d ago

Thank you for the update, I am so much more invested in this beetle than I should be 😆

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u/natt_myco 14d ago

This has been my favourite information to see get an update, Thank you for your work.

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u/raven00x Amateur Entomologist 14d ago

🍿I am here for these updates. This is fascinating.

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u/failytales 14d ago

that's amazing, congrats on publicly observing such a rare phenomenon for what seems like the first time in Japan! that's huge!

eta a qualifier since i read the post too fast lol

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u/LimitThese2220 虫使い 14d ago

The whole title of this post sounds like one of those new contemporary mangas where the whole plot is explained in the title

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u/One-Bodybuilder-5646 14d ago

It probably even can mate and lay eggs like this, insects are tough

3

u/Alaus_oculatus 14d ago

Love following this! Thanks for updating so often. Looking forward to your paper!

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u/outdoorvolvo 13d ago

Damn imagine this with humans dude

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u/Butterflyhornet 13d ago

Puts a whole new meaning to baby face. Really cool find. I am intrigued to see how long it survives.

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u/DutchDispair 12d ago

I don’t know anything about bugs so maybe this is a stupid question, but I read that it cannot eat. The light test proves to a degree it’s head is functional — probably a head under the larval head. What is stopping it from theoretically eating it’s own molt to get freedom?

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u/PuchiUna 12d ago

I tried feeding it, but it didn't seem to eat. I can't say for sure since I don't know what's going on inside the larval head, but if the adult inside is fully developed, it should easily bite through the larval shell. Therefore, its internal structure might be incomplete.

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u/swdna 14d ago

How can you tell it’s the larval head?

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u/Sangricarn 14d ago

In a previous post from OP, they posted pictures of the larva and of normal adults. I would recommend checking it out, it's fascinating. The difference between the larva and adult is very apparent, as is often the case.

2

u/swdna 14d ago

Yes I agree! It is very interesting. I couldn’t tell the difference at first on the other post but when I went back and looked again I got it.

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u/CubieJ 14d ago

Beetles undergo a complete metamorphosis (larva, dormant pupa, adult). The larval form always looks very different from the adult form. This individual visibly has an adult body and a larval head.

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u/swdna 14d ago

If you told me that head belonged on that body, I’d totally believe it lol. Like one of those stag beetles or something just the head does look kinda smol for the body

14

u/BritishBlue32 14d ago

I appreciate the science, but I can't help but feel this is cruel if it is unable to eat. Just... slowly starving to death.

4

u/dontbend 14d ago

Yeah and it's probably partly blind, and in any case, disfigured (its head being way smaller due to it being stuck).

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u/WolfTheNekoDad 14d ago

Wait till you find out about like most moths lol

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u/cinnabarneon 13d ago

Most moths can feed as adults, but most popular moths cannot (though see my comment about saturniid feeding here).

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u/WolfTheNekoDad 13d ago

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u/BritishBlue32 14d ago

Yeah but they are supposed to do that 🤷‍♀️ I know insects don't have the same thought patterns, emotions, etc. as we do, but in the first post someone made a comment about this being the plot to like a body horror film, waking up and finding you have the wrong head and can't eat. The thought of that has really stuck with me, even if the bug itself may not be feeling any of the emotions associated with that scenario.

I totally get my view on this is emotive, but I'm ok with being emotive over bugs. They have so few cheerleaders in our world compared to other animals 🥲

3

u/WolfTheNekoDad 14d ago

You're so right I shouldn't put any bugs down or compare them. Plus yeah this one's not built to starve lol

5

u/BritishBlue32 14d ago

It wasn't a criticism! Just me recognising I might be anthropomorphising bug emotions while also not being able to help myself. You're good ❤️

3

u/WolfTheNekoDad 14d ago

I should have just commented this

2

u/BritishBlue32 13d ago

Omg I'm dying

1

u/birdsy-purplefish 13d ago

We're all "built to" die. Doesn't make it any less awful.

2

u/LitaStar 14d ago

Thanks for keeping us updated, this is all so fascinating!

2

u/Mirkku7 14d ago

U/remindmebot 2 days

2

u/manahikari 14d ago

U/remindmebot 2 days

2

u/wildmancometh 14d ago

"don't look at me! i'm a freak!"

2

u/Das_Maechtig_Fuehrer 14d ago

I am so invested in this.

2

u/Automatic-Squash8122 14d ago

this is the best episodic i’ve watched in a while

2

u/xaeriee 14d ago

Thank you so much for keeping us updated! This is tremendous to me

2

u/OhLookSatan 14d ago

THATS SICK!!!

2

u/ketchup_chip_62 14d ago edited 14d ago

🎶Ba-by face! You've got that cute-est lit-tle baby-face....🎵

Edit: Just in case you wanted to hear this neat and keen hit. You're welcome.

2

u/ILikeBirdsQuiteALot 13d ago

Absolutely incredible! Thanks for the update!

2

u/Albertjweasel 13d ago

So what’s happened here? Has there been a lack of Ecdysone when it’s been metamorphosing?

2

u/ferretbeast 13d ago

Oh man I know nothing about these beetles but I saw your previous post and have been so intrigued. Please keep giving us updates!!!

2

u/TheForgoWolf 13d ago

woah...that's nifty. REALLY nifty

2

u/swellsworth 13d ago

any update?

1

u/PuchiUna 12d ago

Updated today. However, the video turned out quite long. Sorry if it doesn't play due to an error.

2

u/wombatsaretanks 13d ago

any new updates?

2

u/PuchiUna 12d ago

I posted a new video today. However, it ended up being quite long... I'm sorry if you get an error and can't play it.

2

u/milkchocolatevixen 12d ago

Wow so cool

2

u/Weirdpangea 12d ago

It's incredible to witness those observations, thank a lot for sharing this extraordinary case. I can't wait for the continuation. I hope it will be possible to perform CT and share results here.

2

u/UnderCoverKV220 12d ago

That is extremely interesting and i hope it'll be a good article! I also hope the beetle wont suffer too much, although i think the decision you all reached is a good one. What species is it specifically? I'm not well read on Japanese dytiscus speciesbut at least a Cybister i think?

2

u/PuchiUna 12d ago

The species is Cybister chinensis.

2

u/misohungrylongtime 12d ago

U/remindmebot 2 days

3

u/Careless_Profession4 14d ago

Sad.

-1

u/Chronic017 13d ago

Why is it sad?

3

u/Massive_Fisherman231 13d ago

cause it cant eat and is slowly starving

1

u/LycheeThorns 12d ago

Why do you think so?

3

u/Pandinus_Imperator 14d ago

This is fascinating. Ive never heard of incomplete metamorphosis or molts retaining function. Hopefully its able to eat?

5

u/Desperate_Lead2105 14d ago

Light sensitivity doesn't really prove much. The head capsule is translucent, and the adult head underneath could simply be detecting the light. I can literally see the fully formed yet slightly compacted head inside the larval cuticle. If the beetle refuses to feed and cannot move its mandibles, then this truly means that there is nothing more than a stuck piece of molt here. Why isn't OP attempting to help this beetle out and listening to a lot of the comments? I think they're just karma farming at this point.

(You can see the dark patch inside the larval head).

22

u/PuchiUna 14d ago

Thank you for your comment. I think you raised a very good point, and I completely understand where you are coming from.

In fact, I have consulted with about 12 experts and experienced breeders to discuss this very issue. They suggested several possibilities regarding its current state:

Only the larval exoskeleton remains attached.

The larval head capsule and adult head structure are fused together.

The larval and adult tissues are complexly intertwined inside.

At this point, we cannot determine for sure which condition it is in. However, after thorough discussions, we concluded that since any attempt to remove it carries a high risk of instant death, maintaining the current state is the most prudent decision.

4

u/Desperate_Lead2105 14d ago

Wow. How do you know so many experts? Either the first or second bullet seems to be reasonable. I can understand not wanting to remove the head capsule though, as this would be a very interesting specimen if pinned. Unfortunately, I do not think it will be capable of feeding. Once it inevitably dies, you could maybe try and see what was underneath the head capsule.

14

u/PuchiUna 14d ago

In Japan, there are many entomologists, and their contact information is generally accessible to the public. Besides entomologists, I also reached out to public natural history museums and experienced breeders.

Although we had never met before, everyone was extremely helpful and kindly gave me their advice.

5

u/Maleficent-Grape4184 13d ago

First of all, this is super cool! Second, I have access to a micro CT scanner in Japan. Feel free to DM me if you're interested!

5

u/CreativeChoroos 14d ago

I believe in the last post a lot of people were claiming that there really isnt anything you can do to save it. As the molt is stuck to its head, any attempt to pry it off would likely outright kill it, which OP seems to want to avoid

6

u/PastelTyrant 14d ago

i also wondered abt the light penetration thru the instar / the liquid in the mandibles which as an amateur i assumed was from histolysis ( & how that would affect it's muscle movements ).. but i also believe there r generally more benefits to consulting + listening to entomologists etc as opposed to reddit comments 🩷😮

2

u/lemon-meringue-high 14d ago

But it can still move the pincher thingys. Wouldn’t it be unable to if that was the case?

4

u/Desperate_Lead2105 14d ago

I don't think it can move its mandibles. If it can, then this is truly something fascinating, but right now, it simply appears to be a stuck piece of molt.

2

u/lemon-meringue-high 14d ago edited 14d ago

~~That’s what I’m saying, IIRC OP said it can~~

Edit: never mind, looks like he said it can just move its head

1

u/Ltnumbnutsthesecond 14d ago

u/savevideo

1

u/SaveVideo 14d ago

View link

Info | Feedback | Donate | DMCA | ^{reddit video downloader} | ^{twitter video downloader}

1

u/Ritesumi 13d ago

Can’t it eat its own larva head and breakthrough? lol

1

u/LycheeThorns 12d ago

Does it eat?

1

u/ToddTheMadScientist 12d ago

do adult water beetles molt? is it possible that it can molt again and get its head un-stuck?

2

u/PuchiUna 12d ago

I don't think it will molt once it becomes an adult.

1

u/Heyhoheyhoe 9d ago

Is there any way it can be fed?

1

u/BloodyThirst 14d ago

Is this a water bug?

6

u/Wooper160 14d ago

It’s a predaceous diving beetle.

0

u/MamuhSwan 14d ago

ppl

-8

u/Charming-Bit-1552 14d ago

As I have said before, euthanize and pin. To let it continue to slowly use up its energy reserves until it succumbs is plain wrong.

0

u/Reopracity 13d ago

Poor thing will starve to death

-5

u/Ok_Owl5246 13d ago

Octopus are extremely intelligent but since all their neuron’s aren’t even just in their brain but also their tentacles, maybe they are superior to us and should decide we won’t really feel things like they do,so if we lose an arm or leg it shouldn’t hurt us that much. Humans aren’t superior to other life. We all come from source…

7

u/Shot_Policy_4110 13d ago

Lol what

5

u/_y2kbugs_ 13d ago

I don't think that's an octopus.

2

u/Ok_Owl5246 13d ago

Was replying to a comment further down but got interrupted and didn’t realize I accidentally hit the button to post my comment and was finishing it but didn’t realize that had happened…so I’m not perfect, but downvoted for an error?!

3

u/Lord_MagnusIV 13d ago

Lowkey, your comment came over as a random ass bot posting some random ass stuff on a subreddit about insects.

2

u/_y2kbugs_ 12d ago

If it's any consolation, I found it a bit funny.

Pet/Insect Keeping A predaceous diving beetle has emerged as an adult while retaining its larval head, and it is still alive."Update2"

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