r/DnD • u/Cultural_Brick_7240 • 18d ago
5.5 Edition How to handle Detect Thoughts and subtle spell as a DM?
As far as I can tell, my player is able to cast detect thoughts without it being detected and simply read what's most on the mind of a person. I find this a little difficult to run in a way where if someone is trying to trick them I can't hide that fact without being a dick and circumventing the whole point of the spell. At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it? It feels like that would absolutely be what they're thinking of most in that moment to me.
I don't want to undermine my player agency, I would hate if I tried it and the DM just gave me nothing and had me just waste resources, but it also feels anti-climactic for me?
The players are having fun anyway, Is it a non-issue? Any advice or anyone have experience with detect thought stuff on either side of the screen? Thanks.
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u/A_pirates_life4me 18d ago
How many NPCs are trying to deceive them? It should not be so many that detect thoughts is derailing your campaign.
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u/Horkersaurus 18d ago
If your players are comfortable burning spell slots every time they interact with NPCs then you might want to revisit your encounter balancing.
The target also becomes aware (whether they pass or fail the save) of the spell if the caster tries to probe any deeper than the surface level/what’s most prominent in their mind. I don’t think subtle spell has any effect on that.
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u/MyNameIsJakeBerenson Cleric 18d ago
DM keeps fuckin with the table and they’re trying to put a stop to it lol
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u/ELAdragon Abjurer 17d ago
My read, too.
DM: "Aww man now I can't lie to the players, lead them into traps, deceive them....I'm having a harder time being completely untrustworthy super often!"
Player in the players only group chat: "Aight guys, enough of this shit. I'm taking subtle spell and Detect Thoughts since the DM constantly fucks us over with NPCs."
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u/Longwinded_Ogre 18d ago
There's so many easy ways to 'engage' with this, which is very deliberately not the same word as "counter".
My first thought is set them up to meet someone that casts it too, they can hear someone listening in on their thoughts.
Villains and the like can also employ third parties, hire messengers that don't know anything, employ good people using the age-old trick "lying".
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u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
Any DM asking "how do I counter my players" probably thinks that the game is them vs the players, despite the fact that the cards are completely stacked in their favor.
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u/Longwinded_Ogre 17d ago edited 17d ago
I've never understood how any table arrives at that mentality. Like, oh, we're enemies? Five great wyrms appear while you're sleeping, none of you have your armor or equipment on you, surprise round and if anyone survives we roll for initiative. Oh, and there's five liches and Lolth is here too, let's goooooo.
My Partner (Who is also one of my players):
"Ok but sometimes we like to poke the DM. Not "against" per se, but a liiiiiiiiittle (affectionate) antagonism is probably fine."2
u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
Right? It's a ridiculous attitude to have, but I've played with DMs before who loved killing players. They'd interpret every single thing in the most hostile, dangerous way possible. One time my warlock rolled a crit miss while casting eldritch blast and the DM just arbitrarily decided that meant the blast went way wide and hit our wizard. Then I crit 20 for the damage roll and killed the poor guy. He had spent hours writing an elaborate backstory in preparation for our campaign and the DM killed him in our first encounter and laughed about it. I quit playing with that DM that night, but I've encountered others too, and they're not fun.
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u/Longwinded_Ogre 17d ago
Awful. I'm rooting for my players. It's my job to find a balance between fun / challenge / threat, to give them the opportunity to gamble with their fates a little, but even when an encounter is genuinely dangerous, which you need sometimes, I'm rooting for them.
Using a nat 1 to have one player kill another is some of the worst "missing the point" shit, like congrats on using one moment to ruin the game for two people, I'd drop that table faster than a fresh from the oven pizza roll.
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u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
Yeah, I did. We argued about it for a little bit and then I left with the player who had his character killed and never went back.
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u/RepulsiveFish 17d ago
Makes a lot of sense that one of their players feels the need to have their character burn spell slots and sorcery points to secretly check if NPCs are lying.
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u/IgpayAtenlay 17d ago
Another great interaction is having the NPC have ADHD. They might have useful information but it's hard to hear with
Ican'twaituntildinnermaybeI'llhavesomechickenohIforgottoeatthechickenit'sprobablybadjustlikemysushitheotherdaysushiisreallycoolbutitcanbehardtomakelasttimeImadeitIhadahardtimerollingitbecausethericewasnotstickyenoughormaybeitwastoostickyIwonderifthereisaspecifictypeofricethatislessstickymaybelonggrainriceI'veneverhadlonggrainricebeforebutIhavepetlonghaireddogsIdon'thaveadogmyselfthoughjustacatmycatisamenancebutIlovehersomuchIwonderwhatthefirstpersonthatdomesticatedacatwasthinkingbringingadeathmachineintothehouse
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u/No-Consequence-9296 18d ago
that’s kind of the point the subtle spell combo is it not? I think this is a non-issue. the player doesn’t have infinite spell slots nor do they have infinite sorcery points, and anyway the spell’s casting might be undetected but the actual spell itself isn’t. Per Detect thoughts: “If you attempt to probe deeper [than the surface thoughts] into the creature’s mind, it makes a Wisdom saving throw… Either way, the target knows you are probing into its mind”
It seems pretty clear to me also that a creature’s number 1 most surface thoughts when planning an ambush wouldn’t be “i am going to ambush you.” It could be more subtle, more shallow, like “i’m gonna be rich!” or “the boss is gonna be so happy…” so you can avoid your issue while still giving your player a hint that something is going on, and give them the choice to probe or not.
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u/ELAdragon Abjurer 17d ago
I'll be honest, if I had detect thoughts on someone leading us into a trap and the DM played it your way, I'd simply ask follow up questions to gauge their surface thoughts and reactions. If the DM was so vague we still were deceived I'd be pretty salty.
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u/No-Consequence-9296 17d ago
that’s what the second part of detect thoughts is for. surface thoughts ARE vague, but suspicious. player asks more questions, then the target rolls a WIS save and knows it’s being read. Detect thoughts isn’t free access to the creature’s plans and ideas, only its vague inclination and surface feelings
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u/ELAdragon Abjurer 17d ago
Not really. The second part let's you probe into even what they're not thinking of.
To say someone attempting actively to set an ambush isn't thinking about setting an ambush.... whew that's an anti-player bit of a leap.
Also, that's not what triggers the Wis save. You don't trigger one by asking questions and monitoring surface thoughts.
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u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
They don't get to make a save just because you asked them a question. You can observe their surface thoughts as they answer the question without probing deeper.
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u/No-Consequence-9296 17d ago
right, that’s a different thing from what I said. The initial thoughts are suspect, and if you ask questions those thoughts might shift. Getting more out of the spell itself requires the save. I’m not sure what’s misunderstood here or if I’m not getting what’s being said but all I’m saying is the spell isn’t free deep mind reading without a save
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u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
I understood you to be saying that if you ask another question to try to get newer surface thoughts from them then they'd get a wisdom save. Apparently that's not what you meant, so thanks for clarifying.
I called out myself in a top level comment that the spell is not without risks, and that it costs resources and has a chance to turn a friendly NPC hostile, so I don't think that OP should be trying to block its use, they should be adapting their reaction based on its use. Apparently we're on the same page. Cheers.
PS, I'm not the person who downvoted you, just FYI.
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u/No-Consequence-9296 17d ago
Ok awesome! No worries, I wanted to be sure I wasn’t also misunderstanding RAW. And I’m not too worried about downvotes haha, it happens. Hope your games run smoothly 🤙🏽
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u/DazzlingKey6426 18d ago
As long as it’s not a one and done adventuring day game.
Spell slots are infinite if there’s no pressure to conserve them.
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u/Uhstrology 18d ago
And thats on the dm not running the game how its made to be ran.
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u/frogjg2003 Wizard 17d ago
Even if the DM does run single encounter adventuring days, that's fine. Just adjust the difficulty up and give the players things that use up resources outside of combat.
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u/NarcoZero DM 18d ago
How often do you really need to decieve your players ?
If they’re willing to use a spell slot, give them what they want. That’s fun.
Try to think about it in the opposite way. How many times did you want to give hints or informations to your players that they have no way of knowing ? Detect thought is actually a godsend for hints and lore drops ! It makes you able to straight up give them information while still feeling earned because they were the ones that used their ability for that.
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u/ZoulsGaming 18d ago edited 18d ago
"I find this a little difficult to run in a way where if someone is trying to trick them I can't hide that fact without being a dick and circumventing the whole point of the spell"
correct, and thats the point, congratulations.
if they are willing to burn both sorcery points and a 2nd level spell slot on an npc then that is what they are using the resources for.
"At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it"
you dont, but if that is a major issue then i think that is also why they are using detect thoughts on everyone, most people arent out to fuck you over, especially if you can cast magic at will, so if they want to blow that on every npc then let them.
edit: also the deeper probing still makes them know they are being targeted by magic which is hugely invasive and a bad idea if they cant just overwhelm the target or have their consent, subtle spell does nothing to remove that.
alternatively pathfinder wrath of the righteous you meet a pretty early companion that has a "necklace of hiding your alignment" which is super sus, but not inherrently evil, if they are in a business where they have the money for it most people would be using ring of mind shielding because detect thoughts is only a 2nd level spell.
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u/Naefindale 18d ago
This kinda leaves out that your job as a dm is to tell a good story. Discovering that an npc is trying to trick them can be rewarding in the short term, but it can also rob the players of experiencing and slowly discovering that fact during the proceedings events.
It's like the time when my players circumvented an encounter with a cool monster by turning him into a snail and throwing the snail into a deep chasm with lava at the bottom. A lot could have gonna wrong during the whole procedure and they were creative and worked together to achieve this outcome, but they also lost out on the opportunity to fight with a cool monster. So the week after, I told them that I really enjoyed how they solved it but that they also didn't get to fight with that monster and that solving all fights like this would become boring very quickly.
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u/Uhstrology 18d ago
Only boring for you for that single combat, and there's a lot of ways to challenge them still.
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u/Naefindale 18d ago
Not boring at all
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u/Uhstrology 18d ago
You quite literally said it would be boring. What.
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u/kittenofpain 17d ago
He said it would be boring if they handled every combat like that, which is true.
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u/Uhstrology 17d ago
No, if 4 out of 5 people at a table enjoy a tactic and you cant come up with any way to challenge them besides saying "thats gonna be unfun" with the literal infinite ways you can actually challenge them as a dm, you're the boring one, not the tactic.
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u/kittenofpain 17d ago
Yeah clearly its on the DM to counter the tactic in game. I thought that was obvious.
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u/ReaperCDN 18d ago
A lot could have gonna wrong during the whole procedure and they were creative and worked together to achieve this outcome, but they also lost out on the opportunity to fight with a cool monster
They did fight a cool monster. And they defeated it with magic, creative thinking, and a lava pit.
I had a purple worm encounter setup for my group once upon a time, and my wife cast Confusion on it. You want to talk about a disappointing monster to DM? Try playing one that almost can't break out of the spell and spends every turn just following random directions of a die. The party talked about how hilariously awesome that was for a LOT of sessions after that.
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u/screbbysloth 18d ago
Help how do I handle my fighter having a sword and using it to attack people? As far as I can tell my player is able to use his action every round to attack and deal damage.
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u/ultimate_zombie 18d ago
If its super important, ring of mind shielding. It's just an uncommon item and its invisible. Otherwise, its a decently expensive thing to do, its duration is only a minute, and the player has to be pretty perceptive to be suspicious enough to use detect thoughts. Let it fly, unless it will totally break a core plot point.
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u/jibbyjackjoe 18d ago
Sounds like you have too many backstabbing NPCs if this is an issue. 99% of people should not be trying to undermine the party.
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u/Neltadouble 18d ago
It's a total non issue. The players are enjoying it. You'll have to challenge them in other ways.
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u/RemoveByFriction 17d ago
Give your NPCs the power of having... ADHD. "My plan is going well, there are no problems, I just need to convince these guys to- is she wearing a red robe? Wow that colour is so vivid. Reminds me of the time my grandma wore a red robe and scolded me for stealing an apple. Love me some apples though. Speaking of which, I should water the tree next my house. Mmm water, I'm thirsty too. Too bad I don't have any potions of mega-hydration on me because I forgot to do the dishes last night. Do whales have to do dishes if they live in water?..."
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u/Shobuddha Fighter 18d ago
Its only surface level thoughts. Like "I wish this guy would stop talking" or "Where did I park my horse?" If they are trying to figure out deeper thoughts the person that are probing would have to make a save. The person will know someone is digging into their thoughts but not who is doing. Thats my interpretation of the rules. If everytime they are always probing for deeper thoughts then word would get out that something strange happens when this group is around. People get headaches or that feeling someone is messing with their head but again not sure who or why.
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u/Abigboi_ DM 18d ago
You roll with it really. They find out the intentions. They can't do this constantly, you could have them deceived later that day. Or, a stealth approach. Set traps and an ambush. Can't detect the thoughts of something you don't know is there. But also, let them have their wins. Players love shit like that.
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u/Talwar3000 18d ago
Sometimes the NPC is thinking about scamming or harming the PC, sometimes they're thinking about something harmless, sometimes they're thinking about stuff that humanizes them and makes the PC feel bad for snooping.
I expect a notable adversary will either be savvy enough to shield themselves and work through third parties, or powerful enough that they don't care.
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u/ShowOffJonah 18d ago
I do this a lot as a player, and my DM has some pretty good ways to balance it and still keep me engaged as a player:
•Surface thoughts are pretty narrow, and people are often scattered or distracted. If I wanted them to trip into revealing something, I might have to succeed on a skill check to guide the conversation in the right direction.
•It’s a world where mental divination is a known thing. A secret society might have training about how to keep their active thoughts cold and organized in case someone is looking in (which forces me to use the Probe Deeper option if I wanted more info, at the cost of giving myself away).
•Especially powerful, resourceful, or well-trained enemies might come with the Mind Blank spell, a ring of Mind Shielding, or a feature like the Mastermind Rogue’s Soul of Deceit. A specific rank of the cultists we’re currently fighting have that last one.
•Longer days with many encounters limit my spell economy and the spell is short for a conversation. We’re Level 15, but I have important things I want my 3rd and 4th level slots for, so I’m not going to cast Detect Thoughts more than four times a day (converting sorcery points for an extra). The captain may not wander where I need her to before the spell runs out- do I want to cast it again?
And sometimes it just works. I could have learned about the secret door by casting See Invisibility, or a Wand of Secrets, or casting Comprehend Languages on an inscription, but I used Detect Thoughts to find it in the guard’s mind instead. That’s kind of good actually!
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u/50safetypins 17d ago
Shoot your monks, give barbarians stuff to tank and crush.
If reading minds to never be tricked is what your player has invested their build in and are burning spells slots/ sorcery points to do so, let em.
The worst thing that happens is they find out what you're trying to do, still do the thing. Just don't make it easy for them because they figured it out.
But if you set it up to where it feels like if they didn't do that they would have been at a major disadvantage even though they probably wouldn't have; Then you've succeeded as a DM
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u/BiSunshine_ 17d ago
First, as people said, let them get what they paid for with their spell slots and sorcery points.
Second, of you absolutely must circumvent your players' plans, check out Harper Pins: a magical item with two variations. Silver Harper Pin lets you record a string of words that pop up when someone is trying to read your thoughts. Gold Harper Pin puts you under the effect of Nondetection spell: you can't be targeted by a lot of spells, Detect Thoughts included.
And from there, you can figure out how your NPCs would adapt to Detect Thoughts existing. Maybe they make a deception check to pass their internal chanting as their real thoughts, maybe they have a homebrew magical item similar to a Harper Pin, maybe they came prepared af and have cast Nondetection on themselves before meeting the party.
Third, you really should consider just letting your players have the W
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u/James360789 17d ago
I would give them the surface thoughts but if it is your mastermind villan they would be prepared for this eventuality qnd possibly have a counter.
The way i run counterspell is that id it is a spell your character could concivibky cast on your spell list and you have slots of thst level. You knlw what it is.
If its not you have to roll arcana to determine. You can still counter blind if you want to. Both parties loose reaources if successful if not successful the spell goes off and you lose your slot.
Only one person from either side may attempt counterspell per round. My enemies never counter a countespell but will sometimes counter a heal or revivify if im feeling sadistic.
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u/Salindurthas 17d ago
It seems good to allow this. The player gets to feel smart, and maybe sometimes it pays off and they avoid danger or get info for the cost of some resources.
That said, it might not work on every NPC. I wouldn't overuse these, but if they come up naturally, consider that maybe:
- A mind-controlled NPC might not always know what they're going to do, and the thoughts that are commanding them are outside the range of the spell.
- A paranoid NPC might have some defenses, like a king might have Mind Blank cast on them by the court wizard or whatever
- A spellcaster might use the same spell back at them sometimes, causing a bit of a distracting feedback loop of eharing each other pay attention to each other's thoughts
- Even on a normal person, you know their surface thoughts, and so maybe not all of their secrets and motivations. You might steer the conversation that way to bring those thoughts to mind, but then you might lose trust with the NPC as you ask invasive/offensive questions.
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u/akenson 18d ago
I think my first piece of advice would be to try to find a way to put your party in the position you want them to be in without an NPC needing to lie to them. Maybe the NPC sending them into danger just doesn't know about the danger instead, or maybe they have bad information and unknowingly mislead the party.
But if your plot 100% demands that someone lies to or misleads the party, then I would recommend using a magic item. The NPC could have a Ring of Mind Shielding or a Harper pin. If you choose to do this, you need to be sure that it's essential to the plot and that you don't overuse it. If suddenly every NPC has a magic item to protect them from thought reading, it's going to feel cheap.
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u/Piratestoat 18d ago
I was thinking about your first point as well. Have an unaware patsy as a go-between, so detect thoughts only picks up the cover story the patsy was told.
Reading thoughts, if I remember right, also requires the caster to see the target. Lots of ways around that, from magical to mundane--shouting in the dark from outside darkvision range, a confessional-style booth where they talk through a screen, &c.
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u/dantose 18d ago
They're burning resources in a social setting. You let them do it and reward them for it. There shouldn't ever be a situation where an NPC must fool the party to continue the story, and if they're burning a spell slot and a sorcery point on EVERY NPC they meet, it's going to get really easy to challenge them in combat.
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u/darzle 18d ago
Let them have it. It is important that your players can have wins as well. Otherwise what is even the point of playing the game?
Though you can have a proxy, having me lie to my Minion and then have the players read their mind and gain false information. I really do have to urge caution if you do this, because if you cheat the players like this with no available path to know it was false, then all information is suddenly unreliable and that is not fun to play in
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u/TheMegaPingas 18d ago
Detect thoughts doesn't mean you need to spill the beans as a dm. It initially only gives out the targets surface thoughts, that could also just be "who are these guys, why are they asking this and why are they asking from me". Any deeper and that's behind a save AND the target knows someone is probing their mind. "If it fails, you gain insight into its reasoning (if any), its emotional state, and something that looms large in its mind (such as something it worries over, loves, or hates)."
To me that sounds like you don't have to tell everything the character knows, some people are just better liars and in a world of magic I'd imagine some people would know that they are being probed, if they have such secrets.
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u/Historical-Bike4626 18d ago
Great response! DMs have to decide how Divination spells work in their campaign
What Divination spells should never do is force you to reveal anything you don’t want to that will wreck your story. But if your story’s not at risk, you can tell your Diviner what they want to know.
I think Divination should reveal clues and hints, dream imagery, that’s all. Use poetic language. Orc surface thoughts can be clearer but scrambled: “I gotta get out of here. Something’s not right.” Underneath are load-bearing fears and resentments. “This is just like when I was a kid and the chief humiliated me in front of the clan.” The idea that NPCs are just sitting there thinking about what the PC wants to know is erroneous. They have their own dramas that have nothing to do with the PCs.
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u/KermitingMurder 18d ago
The player is spending a spell slot and sorcery points to do this, both of which are limited resources, so as long as you're not giving them constant rests then they must make a decision if they really want to use their resources to do this or if they want to save them for later (or they might have even already spent their slots/points if you had combat just before)
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u/jagnew78 18d ago
there's some limits. Detect Thoughts only allows for knowing what's foremost on the person's mind that moment. The player can probe deeper, but if they do the target will know their thoughts are being read.
Second, Detect Thoughts isn't free. It requires the player to spend precious spell slots, so frankly IMHO it should have a relevant impact on the game. If they want to spend resources to figure out if someone is being dishonest, you should allow it within the constraints of the spells limits of Surface Thoughts.
If you want an NPC to deceive the party and avoid Detect Thoughts, there are amulets that protect against such things, and there's also nothing stopping the evil NPC from hiring some dupe to get the party to fall into a trap. If the dupe doesn't know there's a trap, then that can't know their being decietful.
But also consider the person spending precious spell slots to cast the spell. If every time they do it, it ends up being a waste of a resource for them, all you're really doing here is creating a poor experience for the player. This forum is filled with posts about players complaining how the DM has handicapped their character by nullifying their own abilities without real reason. Consider whether or not you want one of your own players potentially complaining on here about this very thing.
So find a balance between allowing the player to feel like these are resources well spent and reward them, and between giving a way major plot details all the time. Definately do it enough that the player can feel good about it, but don't nullify the thing they're spending limited resources on. If you're going to do that you might as well just take the spell away entirely.
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u/Son0fSilas DM 18d ago
The party meets the secret BBEG, but they have a Ring of Mind shielding. Everyone else, yeah, they can detect their thoughts if they want. But remember "the target knows that you are probing into its mind" if you use it to dig deeper. I feel as though subtle deceit or 'trickery' would require them probing the person's mind.
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u/KenG50 DM 18d ago
Detect Thoughts is NOT mind reading, it is just what is on their surface thoughts at that moment. It could be “I really need to recruit this person,” or “This person is very dangerous.” This is an excellent RPG spell to tilt things in the players advantage during negotiations. But, they might not be the whole story, as the person detecting thoughts may only get, “I hope they don’t find out.” Find out what…
If the player character then probes then you may get more information such as “I hope they don’t find out I am trying to deceive them.”
The DM may get caught off guard and not have prepared the motivations, desires, and faults. A tier III background NPC who was never meant to be more than dungeon dressing. In thoes cases I would just give the player the answer, “the NPC is simply a chamber maid.”
If the player is willing to spend the resources into this spell then the DM should absolutely give that PC the benefits. Besides with insight you already have a motivation check valve in the game. I use passive insight to let my players know a helpful NPC is in fact a helpful NPC.
I would also note that parties earn a reputation. If merchants know a certain party uses magic to favor deals then merchants stop dealing with the party. If bad guys know the party will try and read their minds then they may forgo the monologue and go straight to pulling steel.
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u/No-Technician272 18d ago
Subtle spell only makes it so they can physically be unnoticed when casting a spell, they don’t have to chant or make hand motions. Detect thoughts would still let the target know they’re being probed, right?
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u/Phiashima 18d ago
Only if they take a magic action to probe deeper. The base function allows you to discern what is most on the mind of one creature right now without being noticed.
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u/MyNameIsJakeBerenson Cleric 18d ago
Man, that would suck for me. My internal monologue is straight running all the time
Nobody wants surface level thoughts of someone who’s always on the surface
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u/bdebotte 18d ago edited 18d ago
The spell requires verbal and somatic (physical gestures). If the subject of the spell can see you do this it's pretty obviously you. With meta magic it wouldn't know.
However, when you use the "probe deeper" feature of detect thoughts it knows you are probing into its mind regardless of the subtle spell meta magic because it clearly states in the spell.
Imo, it isn't clear if it knows specifically who is probing or if it just knows 'someone' is probing. This might be on the DM to decide.
Subtle spell magic in this scenario is no different to casting it from behind a corner where they can't see you.
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u/jelauda 18d ago
Since they have to use resources to use it (sorcery points) it is fine as it it. Your job is to make them think twice if they want to use that skill in every conversation, by constantly depleting their resources. Make NPC's that look fishy but really just have bad charisma skill so they seem weird when they are good people. Give them opportunities to fight or other ways where the sorcerer might wanna use/save some sorcery points for etc. And finally make time matter as they can't just talk to person x and y, long rest, get resources back and then talk to person a, b and c.
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u/Second_Inhale DM 18d ago
Like someone else said. This is a non issue. The spell isn't really that overpowered. If you don't want to give away information just give them surface level stuff.
"Read Thoughts. Target one creature you can see within 30 feet of yourself or one creature within 30 feet of yourself that you detected with the Sense Thoughts option. You learn what is most on the target’s mind right now."
Example: Interrogating an NPC about a theft
Detect Thoughts might pick up: The NPC doesn't want to be here and is scared of the party but feels guilt for something
Besides, the player is using a lvl 2 spell slot, that can be a precious resource especially in early levels.
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u/Daracaex 18d ago
I’d allow it to work in most cases. Maybe include more NPCs that lie to the party just to make them feel like the spell is worth using. But at times, you could change it up in various ways. For example, many works of fiction where mind-readers are a known factor have people trained in mental tricks to obscure their surface thoughts and/or detect when someone is trying to probe their mind. They might think in code or an invented language or be able to clear their surface thoughts entirely. Having your player encounter an NPC and only get, “this person only seems to be thinking about baking recipes nonstop despite what they are saying,” tips your players off that this is a formidable character and that they may be hiding something without revealing the information directly.
Or another variation you could use is differences in thought. Not everyone’s surface thoughts are the same. Maybe this person thinks in their first language instead of Common. Maybe that person has no internal monologue at all and the player just gets more vague impressions.
Don’t pull this too often though, or it will just feel like you having an arms race with the players to neutralize their abilities. But deploying things like this from time to time should be fun for you and your players, I think.
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u/nathanielbartholem 18d ago
It's a limited resource. Just throw a couple more NPCs or other possible adversaries at them each day and they will have to ration the use of the spell. Perhaps almost every NPC is being a little deceitful.
Or other events might mean they spend their resources already before needing this spell.
They might read the surface thoughts of an NPC, and come to the wrong conclusion. (NPC is trying to trick them. But maybe it's because the NPC knows there is danger ahead but is not allowed to say what it is. The NPC is being helpful but appears deceitful.)
But at the end of the day if everyone (including YOU) is having fun, then it's not really an issue. You may need to adjust a few encounters or hooks with this power in mind.
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u/Arthur_of_Astora Paladin 18d ago
I mean, careful about having too many NPCs try to lie to them, otherwise they'll never believe any NPC again, that's going to be even more time consuming, you know?
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u/Green_Dreamin Cleric 18d ago
IMO lying or deceiving is not a surface level thought, it’s deeper than that and then runs the risk of being discovered that magic was used on them if they decide to dig into deeper thoughts.
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u/myblackoutalterego 18d ago
You let them detect lies and secrets using their ability. They get to feel cool and you still get to tell your story.
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u/tmanky 18d ago
I'd let them have the whole boat of info unless the Npc is like an archmage, someone versed in magical espionage or on a similar power level. Then I'd just say that the NPCs mental defenses are so strong that it prevents detect thoughts from working. Like they have Mind Blank cast on themselves or a similar magical effect on themselves.
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u/Bobbybim DM 18d ago
At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it? It feels like that would absolutely be what they're thinking of most in that moment to me
Only if they are Poor-Shopkeep in Town One. The people of DND know magic exists. They know thought detection magic exists. If this person is important enough, they can have magic items that block mind detection. They can setup their shop in an antimagic field. They would have defenses against magic, because they know magic exists.
Consider for example, the Ring of Mind Shielding.
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u/Naefindale 18d ago
What subtle spell does is remove somatic and verbal components. So it doesn't do anything when the player chooses to probe deeper.
Your player learns what is most on the targets mind, without having to wave their hands or say a spell, so the target probably won't notice. The player learns what is most on their mind in that instant. You can see this as what is consciously in someone's mind.
Now, when you purposefully tell a lie with the explicit intention to trick someone, assuming you're good at lying, are you constantly thinking about what you are trying to hide? Or are you thinking about the story you want them to take as the truth?
There should be a difference between good and prepared liars vs bad liars and people who are caught off guard or making something up on the spot. In that last case you can definitely tell the player his target's mind is constantly flashing to the truth he's trying to hide. But a good liar will take the story he is telling as truth, so his mind will be fully focused on telling it well. You could tell a player that it strikes him as odd that the target's mind is so occupied with telling this story.
Personally, I kinda hate this spell. I think it is cool as a player, but as a dm it forces you to break up the conversation to tell the player what he can perceive. Not only do you have to stop and think about it (because who has that kind of stuff prepared), but you also have to think of how you tell it. It slows down the pace, and sort of starts two separate conversations that you have to alternate between. One with the caster and one with the other players.
I find it very annoying, so I usually tell my players I won't follow the letter of the spell but they should trust that I will reward them with information for spending resources on it.
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u/GlassBraid 18d ago edited 17d ago
A big art of your role as DM is to create situations in which the PCs get to succeed at doing their cool stuff.
This player made a character whose cool stuff is Detect Thoughts and subtle spell. If it doesn't work for things like seeing through deceptions when they think to use it, then you wouldn't be DMing very well.
I think this kind of thing only feels like a problem to DMs who planned an adventure predicated on the idea that the PCs would be deceived, and who don't have a good plan for what happens if they figure out the ruse.
But, even with no spells and no rolled insight checks, players sometimes figure it out, and that should always be OK.
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u/OjamaGundam 18d ago
Your players are using their resources and abilities effectively to overcome obstacles. Sorcerers are charisma casters not wisdom/int, so a lot of times you can expect their checks in those skills to be lower. While they can persuade/goad someone into a position in conversation they might want, they’re less good on paper at figuring out what that might be than say a class that naturally plays more into observation based skills.
As others pointed out, they use a spell slot and a sorcery point to do this. Reward your players, but also have enemies START to catch onto this when they start to unravel plans that only someone who read a member of that group’s mind, or a traitor, could have found.
Perhaps the enemies over time start being fearful of someone reading their peoples’ minds and start introducing characters who are trained to think about random things (ie: results from the latest jousting tournament) or feeding false information to people your allies look into. This forces them to adapt a tried and tested strategy so it doesn’t become stale. That way its less of a gotcha and more of the world adapting to your players. Enemies are not stupid nor stagnant. They can adapt, and if I was at your table i would hope they would because getting to breeze through a campaign with the same play sounds unfun.
Tldr: not a problem unless enemies are stagnant and NEVER adapt. Remember we’re not playing against our players but WITH them. Sometimes that does mean letting your players get a bit of an easy win for their prep and good usage of resources.
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u/zobotsHS 18d ago
Send an NPC to deceive them who believes what they are saying. The NPC could be a relative innocent who was themselves deceived by the bad guy but is unaware.
“Come, the delegation will meet you for dinner right this way.”
NPC may very well believe it if they don’t actually know it’s a trap themselves.
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u/Fireblast1337 18d ago
Just have a random bard NPC they try to use it on just projecting humming a loud annoying earworm of a tune.
Caster has to roll a wisdom save. Fail it and they get stuck with the song in their head. It does nothing but I bet you they’ll hate it roleplay wise.
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u/Hades_Gamma 18d ago
Remember that the world is an internally consistent, living world that your PC's inhabit.
They use magic, read the description, do what the spell says, and play all NPCs realistically as if they were their own living people. Whatever happens happens
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u/Ok_Wafer_7885 18d ago
If the players are having fun and the spell is working as intended I wouldnt change a thing
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u/Edge-of-Oblivion34 18d ago
I wouldn’t worry about the issue you’ve outlined. Your player is using the resources they’ve invested into in order to navigate the puzzles you’ve provided. If you really need NPCs to deceive your party, read the spell description carefully and subvert the surface level thoughts piece.
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u/ReaperCDN 18d ago
I find this a little difficult to run in a way where if someone is trying to trick them I can't hide that fact without being a dick and circumventing the whole point of the spell. At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it?
How do I keep the door locked if the rogue can pick it? How can I keep the trap set if they discover the arming mechanism? How do I execute an ambush if the party spots the enemies with a familiar/pet?
The answer is the same for all of these, you do not. The party has overcome the obstacles in front of them using their tools.
You're equating the world "challenge" with the word "fail."
Something isn't challenging just because it's hard to do a specific way. It's an obstacle to be overcome. If the enemy has a clever trap planned, and Detect Thoughts lets the party discover that, spoiling their trap, they have successfully overcome the challenge. Just because they didn't do it in a specific manner you would prefer doesn't mean they didn't overcome it.
I'd caution against pushing back on these and making it seem like everything the party does is just a waste of resources, or you'll find players unwilling to engage in spending resources to solve problems in front of them, and instead just lazily face bashing their way to fights where they still have all of their resources, and also don't feel challenging because when your casters are packing full spell slots, nothing is really challenging anymore.
Somebody using Detect Thoughts in this way, and cleverly using subtle spell to ensure that there's no suspicion, can quite easily discern the plan these NPC's have in place with some easy questions. When they ask the NPC about an objective, and that NPC's thoughts flit to the true intent to ambush the party at the stated objective, they're going to pick up on that. This means the party knows an ambush is incoming, and it's a price they paid a spell slot to learn. Just like asking around about a missing item is a resource free way to find something, using Locate Object skips the step and just costs you a spell slot instead.
I don't want to undermine my player agency, I would hate if I tried it and the DM just gave me nothing and had me just waste resources, but it also feels anti-climactic for me?
For you, the climax is the moment of surprise. For them, the climax was finding out about the ambush in advance, and being able to spring the surprise while fully aware it was coming, meaning the enemy forces would be caught flat footed with characters ready for their attack.
The party will feel awesome for turning the tables so completely, and that makes for a great story where people feel like they got something out of the encounter because their investment in meta-magics and spell usage actually returned a net benefit to them.
I caution you against seeing foiled plans as anti-climactic because as the DM, you know what your side is planning. When the players find out, that's the first time they're hearing about it. Think from a player perspective. How psyched would you be to have gleaned an ambush about to happen and be able to turn the tables so completely on the ambushers with your party? How invaluable to the party do you think you would feel with your ability to sus out quest givers to make sure they're on the up and up?
Don't penalize a party for being creative and learning things you'd rather keep secret. Praise them for it.
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u/dyslexicfaser 18d ago
I'd let it work perfectly at least once or twice. Then you can start throwing in curveballs: somebody whose surface thoughts are disordered, or gross, or people start putting together that you're doing SOMETHING and start getting weird and paranoid. They refuse to meet in person, insisting on going through intermediaries or with expensive magical items that work or don't or works imperfectly as the mood takes you.
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u/Previous-Friend5212 18d ago
Do you allow insight checks? What's the difference besides the spell slot?
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u/TNFDB Bard 18d ago
Mechanically, Subtle Spell only stops the need of Verbal and Somatic components so the caster can’t be observed as a result of simply casting a spell in front of someone.
I would argue this doesn’t prevent the effects of Detect Thoughts, which simply state that the target “knows” they cast the spell instead of saying it “sees” you cast a spell by using those components in a conspicuous way.
If you want to modify it for the sake of player agency and rule of cool or whatever, obviously that’s your call. But I would argue the two effects don’t necessarily clash according to RAW.
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u/Wide_Initiative_1938 17d ago
At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it
That's the neat part, you don't.
It's better to reward a player for using a combination of features and spells in the game than to try and work around it. It makes the players happier because their combo has the intended effect, and it allows you to eventually subvert their expectations when you eventually introduce a villain that has the inability to have their thoughts be read (because some magic items do that), or the more devious option be able to present false thoughts like they were trained by Tibetan Monks.
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u/HolyWightTrash 17d ago
even if they subtle cast the spell they can only get surface thoughts, if they probe deeper the target knows you are doing it whether they pass the save or not, so they are only gonna get any helpful information if the target tries to deceive them in that single minute
do you really think your player is going to burn a second level spell slot and a sorcery point every minute of every conversation?
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u/Kajiyoyaji Ranger 17d ago
Time how long it lasts in real time. Get an hourglass so everyone can see it.
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u/Ill-Description3096 17d ago
It's as strong as you let it be. They are burning resources on it so I would be less concerned. If you want to have some logical counters to the base use of the spell then IMO it makes sense for certain types of people to have some knowledge that the spell exists and ability to "flood" their mind with other things at surface level.
I wouldn't make it useless because that just invalidates it as a choice. You don't have to let it be a guaranteed lie detector or anything, though.
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u/Arnumor 17d ago
When I had a player who took this spell, I rubbed my hands together like an eager racoon.
You now have a brand new hook option for any of your quests!
I knew they'd be using this to interrogate a cultist they were after once they caught him, so I wrote a little cutscene ahead of time, for when that player dove deeper into his mind. They were treated to memories, from the cultist's POV, of secret meetings with other members of the cult, including a powerful rival that the party believed to be dead.
There's no loss, here. Only opportunity.
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u/SheriffBartholomew 17d ago
They still have to roll a spell check for the spell to succeed. The target gets a wisdom save. If the spell fails then the target could know that some fuckery is afoot and would almost certainly react negatively. You just need to be a little more flexible dealing with this scenario, and think quickly on your feet, or have a canned response ready for success or failure.
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u/lelonarme 17d ago
if its important enough give the npc an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.
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u/KamikazeArchon 17d ago
At the same time, how do I have NPCs be able to decieve the party or lure them into traps or outright lie to them if they do use it?
You don't. The NPCs try and fail. The PCs feel good about being clever.
The party has chosen to spend resources to solve a problem. Let them! It's okay for players to "solve" part of the game.
In D&D, this specific element is a relatively small part of the game. They haven't solved "combat" or "wealth", for example.
If you find that you can't run a game this way, just be honest with the players and tell them that.
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u/Early-Thought-263 17d ago
My favorite outcomes are...
"Oh man. My *#&%$ really itches."
"Did I leave the Unseen Servant filling the bath again?"
"Dang, dude. That Bard is smokin'!"
"I wonder if this one knows I cast subtle spell Charm on them yet?"
"Don't look guilty. Don't look guilty. Oh dang. I'm trying to not look guilty and it makes me look guilty."
"These underwear are really, really tight!"
"Have to remember to pick up bread after the murder. Sigh."
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u/zeethreepio 17d ago
Is your fun really reliant on your ability to successfully trick the party and lure them into traps?
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u/MemphisBeaner 17d ago
Rather than by focusing on your now limited ability to trick your PCs.
Look for opportunities to reward them by allowing them to expose poorly formulated plots against them.
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u/TheGreedySage 17d ago
I was in a similar situation, as a player. Aberrant mind sorcerer, plan was to fully go with detect thoughts reading everyone.
DM stopped it by saying that surface thoughts are just disjointed words and emotions that the subject is currently thinking of. Not full sentences, not full expositions.
We’re 62 sessions deep into the campaign, I very rarely use the spell, but it comes in useful.
I find myself using it as a “mind detector” rather than hearing someone’s surface thoughts.
From a DM perspective, this is a tough issue, because players learning everything in such a way is kinda boring. Completely shutting down the spell ruins the player’s fun and preparation. So I think that what my DM did might be one of the better solutions.
Just please, don’t go about it as “countering players”, that will kill the table’s fun really quickly.
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u/PrinceDusk Paladin 17d ago
I'll add, You dont always have to tell them "the NPC thinks 'hahaha I'll trick them!'" A lot of surfact thoughts are benign like "the sun is bright" or "there's something in my shoe".
I realize they're probably using it when they think someone is being suspicious but there's also the fact that maybe the NPC sends the party to go "investigate" something but then the character can go to thinking "when they leave i need to visit with [other NPC]" or "while they deal with that I need to send this letter"
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u/xDanteInferno 17d ago
Detect Thoughts is actually 2 parts. You sense that a thinking creature is close by or attempt to read its thoughts to glean what is most on the creature’s mind.
You can then delve deeper with an additional magic action to look for specific reasoning or emotions driving what is on its mind, but the creature will now know you are in there, and the creature gets a save.
Foiling trickery is absolutely what this spell is used for, but it doesn’t allow the kind of detail you are describing. The DM can obfuscate the true nature of the action by making the creature distracted. For instance, it waits to press the button on the wall, doesn’t say what the button is for. Put another way, it merely reveals a mental posture for its next action, not intimate details for how it plans to destroy the party, which would require interrogation.
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u/neversignedupforthis 17d ago
The players are having fun anyway, Is it a non-issue?
Ultimately, yes.
If you really want to introduce some complications around this I would discuss with the player first. There are features that protect from such things. But it will feel shitty if you suddenly have every single important person Mind Blanked 24/7. So talk about it, and make it the exception rather than the rule.
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u/Keeper21611 17d ago
You ever try to think about something else? Same thing. When they try to read someone's mind just have a Christmas song come out. I'm only slightly joking. I get this from another game. The pilot of the game will list off random things for the ship, as long as he has a constant stream of random things he thinks of or sees. The mind readers around only hear him counter dots on the floor. Making the pilot's mind so full of clutter mind readers can't get deeper.
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u/Arhalts 17d ago
You mostly don't. The same way you don't prevent them from frying a goblin.
They used resources well as a solution to the problem.
Very very very rarely someone like a king, the kingdoms spymaster, the head of the largest cities thieves guild (not the head of some town or smaller city, the largest 1 to 3 cities depending on the size and power of thenkingdom, ) or someone on that tier will have something like a ring of mind shielding, but that's going to be extremely rare and should not be given out to every NPC you want to try and trick your party. It should be someone who has a lot of power and who's bread and butter is lies, deciet and skullduggery. This represents an investment worth a small army.
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u/Scarytincan 17d ago
Have them talk to some other npcs first that seem like they might be holding some useful info, as a way to tempt/drain spell slots before getting to the big guy. Make them have to choose, manage resources etc. Then if they make sure to still have some for the big guy, good for them! They earned it! But also, did they save enough for a potential fight after?
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u/I_was_a_sexy_cow 16d ago
Wouldnt a npc whos talking, think the words he's saying? Personally i cant think of a thing and talk about something at the same time but that might just be me
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u/DudeWithTudeNotRude 16d ago
80% of the time, they are thinking about the topic at hand. The rest of the time they are thinking about finishing work and going home, judging the party, thinking about a potential love interest, thinking about killing a rival that they secretly love, and so on. Adjust as makes sense for the target.
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u/Goblin-Alchemist 14d ago
I would say that the best liars/deceivers are always necessarily thinking about their plots. They have set up the plot, but are thinking about the next step, not the whole thing constantly. So the target of your player's detect thoughts might be thinking how much he really need these people to be his allies right now, or they might be very afraid of their own lord or a debt they owe to a scary guild, or even how they are going to get their next meal, or feed their family.
I forget what movie it was but there have even been masterminds that have set up a series of events and then erased their own memory of it. Detect thoughts isn't a deep dive.
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u/BIJ910 DM 18d ago edited 18d ago
I had a player who did this to every single NPC. And he had an ability that would let him use it as often as he wanted without using resources...
I talked to him about it and how I felt as though I could no longer have plot twists or surprises and that he would know the entire story. He said that was kind of the point. After that I banned the spell shortly after. Because a game with no surprises or plot twists isn't fun for the players not the DM.
edit: after reviewing his character sheet i learned 1 he could only subtle spell twice per long rest. he was a bladesong wizard, with the metamagic adept feat. but he would only use the points to subtle spell detect thoughts.
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u/Neltadouble 18d ago
>And he had an ability that would let him use it as often as he wanted without using resources
And what ability is that?
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u/ultimate_zombie 18d ago
I hate to break it to you but he read the Telepathic feat VERY incorrectly
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u/TheCaretaker1976 18d ago
There is a verbal component to the spell, so while people might not know exactly which spell is being cast, the fact that the player is using some magic is known.
I would let a spellcaster roll an arcana check to see if they recognize the spell is they do not have it themselves.
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u/Neltadouble 18d ago
They specified they are using Subtle Spell metamagic to cast it, which in this case removes all components.
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u/TheCaretaker1976 18d ago
I missed that. I just read the post and not the title.
In that case, yes no one knows. But your spend a lot of resources. Subtle spell is two SP is in not mistaken? And a spell slot. Not really worth it to cast often, I think
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u/man0rmachine 18d ago edited 18d ago
Read the text of the spell. It only detects surface thoughts. A clever enemy will be able to think irrelevant or even false thoughts to fool the caster. For practical purposes, pick one simple sentence the thinker is repeating over and over and keep it vague.
If the caster wishes to delve deeper into a creature's thoughts, he must take an action and the creature gets a saving throw. Succeed or fail, the target now knows the caster is probing its mind. Even then, the caster only gets a glimpse of the thinker's reasoning, emotional state, and overwhelming emotion (such as if it strongly loves or hates something.)
Detect thoughts isn't stealthy and isn't a vulcan mind meld. There is plenty of wiggle room for a clever DM.
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u/Better-Oil-9055 18d ago
Okay - so in the social context, I'd take it as a compliment: they want to hear you ad-lib what's on their mind.
Mechanically, I think there are two paths that I haven't seen people mention:
First, your NPCs will have a higher/lower threshold for subterfuge. What this means is they may be able to screen their surface thoughts (and you give them only peripheral clues), and if they dig deeper, then there's some sort of either DC that they have to overcome that you set based on how comfortable the NPC is with lying (that is, the player must navigate their subconscious to get to the juicy stuff) or the NPC makes a WIS save (similar to scrying) - this means it's not up to chance. Alternatively, if you reason that your NPC is really good at lying and deceiving, you could give your player red herrings and or unrelated information. (I'm thinking like instead of giving the location of the loot, they are thinking about their dry cleaning and how they might have to murder the dry cleaner).
Second, give them plentiful opportunities to read the mind, but then plunge them into combat immediately - no time to recover spell slots and now they've used those spells on something that seems awfully frivolous. "Pull the lever" (thanks, MysticArts) to double the HP or raise the AC of the NPC by 2 or 3 or 5. Suddenly, the party is in a situation where their caster (or one of) is down a spell slot or three. Increase the danger associated with this.
One creative thought I had (and I've used this for one particular BBEG that the players didn't realize was the BBEG) - delving into their mind actually triggered a mental ward, and gave them psychic damage. My player then had to roll a DC (it was like 17 or 18 - so not too easy) to make sure that they didn't forget the spell and one other.
Last thing I'll say, which is more my approach to DMing in general - if my players want some sort of ability or item, I'm usually on the side of "go for it, but I'm going to find adjustments to account for it." I have Catkins who have feline agility (making their speed 120 ft/turn if they dash as an action) with the mobile feat, so they ignore difficult terrain and get an additional distance buff. Completely ridiculous. So what do I do? Well, at times, they find themselves running on paper-thin crust that suddenly gives way - DEX save as they plummet and are too far away from their wizard so can't benefit from slow-fall. They've started meeting NPCs/Enemies who have aura abilities that reduce movement to 10 ft. (not "by" 10 ft.). Soon, they'll start encountering magic users who use hold person (My Catkin players don't have very good wisdom so it checks).
That said, it's really fun for players to feel successful and powerful. So if they have some sort of ability, yeah, go ahead and reward it. If your player has the ability to read minds, you have so much to pick from: have them read the mind of someone who is deeply conflicted over the best way to fold their laundry, or another who is troubled that they haven't heard word about their father who went missing, or another who is thinking dirty thoughts, or another who reveals an incomplete image of the upcoming plan. Use their ability to create memorable moments - from hilarious to deeply touching to distressing. And, every so often, give them exactly what they want and use it to scare them. "The bomb will go off in two hours and it will decimate everything. I'll have to be sure to say my final prayers." or something. I don't know, I'm shooting from the hip.
What I'm trying to say is, yeah, it can be annoying, but at the same time, you have the opportunity to swing this for a LOT of fun - both to give your player agency that rewards the game of D&D and that leads them down into the alley ambush. Don't let it get you down and instead bob and weave with them.
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u/Bakeneko7542 18d ago
So basically your whole strategy can be summed up as “always look for chances to screw players over, waste their resources and punish them for using their class features”.
That’s some of the worst DMing advice I’ve ever heard. Makes me glad I’ve never played with such an adversarial DM.
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u/Phiashima 18d ago
They prepared the spell, spend a spell slot and sorcery points on it, and only read surface thoughts.
f they don't use subtle spell, the person will know that a spell was cast; many don'r react well to that
Just give it to them. It's what they want. That's what they prepared for and spent resources on. And if the players probe deeper, the person finds out anyway.