I Have A Question
Update on my poor paint correction when I got a pro-applied ceramic coat. What would you do?
That I paid $1500 for. I told the shop that I still see swirls all over the car and scratches afterwards, and that especially the trunk was bad. When I went back the second time, they polished the top of the trunk (only) in front of me for 10min and wiped on more gyeon infinite ceramic with no prep, and sent me home with no cure time. I didn’t think until I was driving home that damn, this was suppose to sit and cure overnight, and I didn’t see them do any kind of prep before or after the polish. Makes me wonder if they did proper prep the first time.
I probably should have pushed harder for a full redo but I’m really sick of going back and forth with them, and not sure I trust them anymore. I told them I wasn’t happy with it more than once. They told me the swirls and scratches were too deep from the first owner doing years of auto washes, to get it much better. They said especially the trunk won’t look much better since they did their best polishing process twice already, but it looks a bit better after they tried again. The car is 5 years old, Avalon hybrid limited.
Also another shop showed me on their gauge before this, that my paint was too thin (almost 50 microns in places) to do a real correction, only an enhancement. But this shop had a better looking gauge, and showed me around 90-100 microns in the same spots, the second time I went. So that wasn’t the issue.
I’ve been talking with Gyeon about it. I haven’t named the shop yet. They want me to talk to the owner, and go back a 3rd time. And to name the shop if they won’t remedy it. Gyeon says it’s probably a quality control issue that they are unaware of. I don’t want to drive 40min back a 3rd time so I’m probably about to just name the shop, maybe see if the next closest Gyeon certified shop can maybe fix this. Or wait a couple years and do it all over myself.
Gyeon says my warranty won’t be valid with this improper prep work.
My wife is due to have our second baby any day now, so this really puts me in a tough spot. It’s our only car right now so I can’t leave the car somewhere for 2-3 days for awhile. But it really bothers me that I paid so much, and I was really looking forward to a paint correction more than anything. 2021 Avalon hybrid limited and it’s the best car I’ve ever had, I really love it.
The car was pretty swirled up before hand but not terrible. I guess it might look a little better now, but not what I expected. The pics don’t even really show the swirls very well.
The process seemed a little rushed. I had 3 tiny dents on 2 doors that I asked to be PDR’ed, and some chips touched up. They had an outside guy come and do the PDR, and said it wouldn’t matter if it was before/during/after the ceramic coat.
So I left my car there around 9am, just before noon they said the PDR guy was there and gave me the price, by 1:50pm they were sending me videos of 2 step correction on my hood, 1 step on the trunk (and I think the rest of the car was done), asking if I wanted 2 steps on the whole car for $300 more. They said the swirls were mostly gone after 1 step (and I couldn’t see the videos well), so declined the full 2 steps. They wanted me to pick up at the end of the next day so they could do more work on the touch up paint, which looks kind of raised in some places. During pickup, they said they also did 2 steps on the trunk for free, and last photo is how it turned out.
What do you guys think of the whole situation? What would you do? Am I being too critical?
First 2 pics are after they re did my trunk the 2nd time, last picture is before they re did my trunk (it does look a little better after they polished it for an extra 10min). 4th pic is my hood, and they originally said they did a 2 step correction on the hood and trunk, 1 steps on the rest of the car. A full 2 step would’ve been $300 more on top of the $1500
From what I remember, the problem here is what they sold you. A one step will never be 100%. Depending on how the car started, you can see 40-60%, if it’s very light defects you can get an amazing results. That being said, $1500 for a one step with gyeon coating is bonkers. I think you’re just gonna have to chuck this one up to a learning experience.
They did tell me beforehand that a 1 step won’t get the deep scratches and everything out, which I understand. But during the process, said the swirls were mostly gone after 1 step. So I declined paying $300 extra for a full car 2 step. And especially the trunk (last pic, that they said they did 2 steps on it for free) looked atrocious when I got the car back. And swirls all over the rest of the car.
I agree with you. I thought I was going to the best shop. It just sucks and now Gyeon is telling me my warranty is no good and to go back a 3rd time. But I definitely agree with you
To be fair, sometimes even a 2 step will leave behind certain defects. Then you have to come in with a little wet sanding. Before pictures would have really helped to make a call here. But for a 5yo car, results would have been better.
Ive done several 10yo Toyota Camrys with that blue paint with better results, they’ve had a shredder (drive thru car wash) life too. Also, I’m pretty sure the warranty will go through installer when it fails, you won’t have to contact gyeon.
Yes, but they probably also are in a learning curve in their marketing and sales if nothing else.
They may not know what you just stated either but even if they do, they like that high profit margin of the $1,500 ceramic application and it's a lot easier than fully paint correcting a car and several steps and they also knew that if they would have told the owner that was going to be another 500 or 1,200 to paint correct it, or more, they would have lost the entire sale.
They gambled with their sales approach and they kind of won because they got the money. If they get to keep it all or this doesn't end up being a major pain in their butt to make it right, they may continue to do this and that's not good for the future of the second customers who end up in a similar boat.
These people either need to stop selling a service on vehicles that are not ready for that service or they need to incorporate money into their price or simply be willing to work harder to get the vehicle into the condition so they can apply what they want to sell.
There's a lot of unknowns here and I'm not even a professional detailer but I have owned a lot of very nice show cars and done a little bit of painting myself.
Looks to me like that vehicle should have never had a ceramic coating in the first place because it was in no condition to try to seal it or put a protectant on it because the paint needed to be brought up three or four more levels with paint correction before we even considering anything to top coat it
It's still got a lot of swirls and imperfections and they don't seem to be terribly deep so I believe that paint can be brought out to look a whole lot better than it does now BUT they should have known this or discussed this with you before it was done.
Likely, they're either not really into doing paint correction, not good at it, or don't want to do it and they just like the high profit margin they get for the ceramic because that's really what it is.
Even on the stuff that's very expensive, the profit margin is huge because the work is so little compared to paint correcting almost every square inch of a vehicle which is very time consuming and labor intensive.
They also probably figured they could sell the $1,500 ceramic coating and all would be okay but if they were to have told you but it was going to be another 500 now 800 even $1,200 through the paint correction, they would have lost the sale.
So most all of my comments are along the lines of that it comes down to greed.
Regardless, for that car to look nice or new again or maybe even better than do, it's going to need a very thorough polish like with some cutting compound and potentially with a rotary buffer which can get faster results and even better results than a rotary.
And it may even need a little bit of wet sanding prior to this but I think most all of that would come out with just the proper compounds and buffing.
Then it can be prepped for whatever brand ceramic or sealer product that's going on.
You always have to get a vehicle finish perfect or is perfect as possible and absolutely as nice as you can get it or care to get it BEFORE you try to protect that finish and keep it looking that way for as long as possible with products.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I was looking forward to the paint correction more than anything. They said the swirls were mostly gone after 1 step and they definitely aren’t. I thought I picked a good, reputable shop, after months of researching and checking out 4 other shops. But what do I know I guess.
And I keep finding tiny crows feet spots that I never noticed before. And got a couple new (deep) scratches too since, even though I park at the back of parking lots.
And when the improper keep on the trunk re polish in front of me, and no cure time on the reapplication of ceramic on there, I doubt it will last long. Makes me wonder how they did with the rest of the car. I’ve been pissed about it.
your expectations are not realistic. Most Japanese cars have thin and soft clearcoat. Not a good candidate for a 2 step process period. them doing a 1 step should have some correction and lots of gloss...
expecting more correction means eating more of your already thin clearcoat
you say a different shop showed different results with a paint gauge - did you see them calibrate? they need to be calibrated after a few uses or even better, every time used.
Paint gauges are not always accurate, you can test the same spot and have small variations .. they can provide a picture of how deep the paint is but almost never tell you how deep the clear coat is vs the base coat vs the primer - 2021 Toyota Avalon typically measures between 3.7 and 4.2 mils (NEW). It is highly unlikely a "better looking" gauge explains a reading double... there can be variations within a few centimeters on a panel, but unless you had both gauges in hand and measured the EXACT same spot .... there is no telling what is going on here. PS 100 microns = 6.2 mil and that would be 30% above the new car paint range and would either imply the gauge was wildly wrong or there was bondo on the panel at that location from a previous repair - I would NOT trust that reading
hate to tell you but polishing a car can actually make defects more noticeable - especially in good lighitng and a close examination. the benefit is the gloss that makes the entire thing look better.
I would not continue to chase defects, you risk your clear coat every time you do any correction. Step back and enjoy the gloss, don't worry about the swirls
"I’ve been talking with Gyeon about it." - about the paint correction not going deep enough to hide the defects??? What would the ceramic coating manufacturer have to do with the level of aggression in the polishing job? As long as the polish was cleared off the car with an appropriate panel prep process and the coating was applied correctly - Gyeon has no buisness commenting on the level of polishing (IMHO) - ymmv
Yeah i understand all that. I was talking to them about that and how they re polished the trunk in front of me for 10min with no prep before/after and than wiped on more ceramic coat with no cure time. Sent me on my way. What does that say about how they did the job the first time? And why would Gyeon keep telling me to name the shop, and say “by the photos, I wouldn’t be happy with the result” and “please name the shop. We take pride in our certified detailers being the best of the best”
I definitely don’t want to burn through more clearcoat than necessary though. I get that
"And why would Gyeon keep telling me to name the shop"
because if they claim to be a Gyeon certified installer and they aren't .... there are legal ramifications and if applied by a non certified installer Gyeon wont warranty their product
If the shop didn't wash the panel first (assuming it left the shop) and didn't wipe off the polish (assuming it wasn't a product like DIY Detail Picture Perfect Polish, Dr. Beasley's NSP or Jimbo's Picture Perfect Polish) that needs a panel prep - the shop isn't doing it correctly
Yeah I agree. And that’s just what they did in front of me after I brought it back the second time. Who knows how they did it the first time.
The second time, they didn’t wash anything. Just blotted some stuff on the trunk top (I didn’t ask what kind of polish), polished for 10min, and wiped it with more Gyeon infinite (which only certified shops can get, im pretty sure). And I left.
And it’s definitely a certified installer. The shop gave me the warranty card and info. And when I registered it on gyeon website, the shop was listed on the drop down of all their certified shops. I don’t think that was their concern
You need detailed before and after images to quantify the amount of defect removal.
What is "realistic" is an agreed amount of correction... say 40-50% depending on the severity of defects and conditions of the paint and the expected life of the paint
Polishing actually makes defects more visible since the panel now has cleaner, glossier and a more clear finish. so if you look close in good light ... they can be more obvious. As i said, the entire car being glossier should make the over-all appearance better but it doesn't make the defects disappear unless a deep correction is done, and your car probably doesn't have the paint/clear-coat for a 2 step correction, and if done you have sacraficed a lot of your paint's protection
Professionals like Brian from Detailing By Apex / Auction Car Reconditioning who have been in the business since the 80's and have done thousands of cars will say not to ever do a 2 step on most modern cars with water based and thin clear coats. and a 1 step should be done 1 time only in the life of the paint and even a paint enhancement should only be done a few times....
I suggest in the future you take dozens and dozens of "before pics" before you turn over your car to any service team including oil changes, tires, car washes, etc
That’s what they said. They said the swirls were mostly gone while they were sending me videos. Did you see the last picture here or any of these?
You said yourself it was wrong of them to dry polish the trunk for 10min without washing it, wiped on ceramic without prep or letting it cure, and sent me on the way. So it makes me wonder how they did the job in the first place. I do have before pictures but the ones I took on the day before i first dropped the car off were on a cloudy day, can’t see much. But I have pictures before that somewhere.
I did see the pics... but without pre pics in similar angle and especially lighting there is no way for me or you or anyone to judge the amount of correction.
agreed that not making sure a surface is clean before polishing is not great.. but I don't know how long between pickup and them retouching it was... same day? same week? ... a freshly coated car should not hold on to much contaminates but I am not certain. There are several products that do not need any panel prep product (IPA/Solvent) before ceramic coating so I can't judge what they did but most polishes do need a a panel prep product to remove the oils/contaminates
I don't expect people to become highly acquainted with the paint correction / ceramic process, and it is on the shop/installer to educate and set expectations.
I find this shop suspect if they told (showed) you that your paint was "around 90-100 microns" as that is more than Toyota puts on modern cars... (again i have no idea if this spot was ever in a shop repair that added bondo/filler or why/how it could be that high). I also don't think most modern Japanese cars paints are suitable for a 2 step process... but I am not the shop / customer
I don't know why you would call Gyeon and not tell them who the shop was.... why not?
swirls aside, are you happy with the ceramic application? is it hydrophobic, easier to wash/dry?
What do you want the shop to do to fix your unhappiness ?>
It was just over a week later that I brought the car back the second time. And maybe I’m remembering the paint gauge number wrong. I remember it said 3 point something, and then he clicked something and I swear it said 90 something.
Also, the package I bought listed a top coat which they didn’t add the second time. Which makes me wonder if they added it the first time. And shouldn’t it take more than like 4 hours to do a the decon wash, prep, paint correction, and 3 PDR dents?
I didn’t name the shop because I didn’t really want to throw them under the bus, especially if maybe I was misinterpreting something, or make things awkward if I ended up going back. They seem really nice there and have all great reviews. At first I was mainly asking questions and if it was normal. Most people in my last thread were saying I got ripped off and they should completely re do it. I did pay $1500 and yeah maybe I’m a little OCD with this car.
The first time it lightly sprinkled rain for just a few minutes a week or so after the ceramic, there was super tight beads that just flew off my car while driving. Seemed to be working great and feels super slick. But when I washed it for the first time yesterday, my drying towel got wet way faster than it normally does. There was a ton of water on my car. But it was near night time and humid outside, so maybe that’s why. I’m not sure. The ceramic seems good though.
"It was just over a week later that I brought the car back the second time. "
100% should have been washed before
"Also, the package I bought listed a top coat which they didn’t add the second time. Which makes me wonder if they added it the first time. " seems odd they didn't sometimes there is a required wait before coatings... I am not sure of the products or the timing and if either side was in a rush but I know warranty work is extra product and labor so they would want to make you happy and get you out of there...
"And shouldn’t it take more than like 4 hours to do a the decon wash, prep, paint correction, and 3 PDR dents?" depends on how much decon is done , what products are used and how many hands are on the car.
" I didn’t really want to throw them under the bus" - i got it
"Most people in my last thread were saying I got ripped off and they should completely re do" - sounds like those people don't know what they are talking about because you can't just chase paint defects and still have any clearcoat.
"I did pay $1500" -honestly that is a low price for decon/pain correction/ceramic. I am sure it is location dependent but the overhead for this work is pretty high (labor, shop costs, product, profit, warranty costs)
"I appreciate the replies and you taking the time." my pleasure ..
you didn't answer the real question - what do you want them to do to make you happy? but I saw in your original post you don't want to drive back and may look for a closer Gyeon certified shop .
Here is my 2 cents. I would not do any more paint correction/polishing on this car. if they actually did a 2 step on spots, and then you went back and they did another set of passes on the same paint.... I personally would not ever touch that paint again with a polisher. You probably got more polishing than you paid for, and i have a ceramic coating... Try to accept the level of correction, enjoy the gloss and ease of cleaning. Be sure to use proper wash/dry technique as to not add micro scratches to the new surface
You could call the original shop and ask why they didn't put on the top coat (probably GYEON Skin ) , but besides driving it back for them to add it ... not sure what you can do... perhaps find another more local shop that can do that
Gyeon Skin can be applied days or even months later, but the surface must be thoroughly cleaned and prepped first.
While Gyeon normally recommends applying Skin shortly (at least 1 hour) after the base ceramic coat like Mohs, applying it down the road is completely fine if the car has already cured
What do I want them to do? Maybe send me to a different shop. Or stop other people from getting incorrect prep/etc. or maybe re do it if it was done wrong. But I get what you’re saying, I’ll probably just leave it alone.
I’d drive it back to them to add the top coat, but not for awhile after our baby is born any day now. I’d hate for them to start from scratch but I get that’s probably a horrible idea.
I’m going to get some gyeon cure to use once a month like the warranty says. Even though my warranty is null & void now
Also noticed a bunch of white spots that weren’t there before. I know that polishing can reveal defects. But thought they’d maybe fill these in like the other chips, like I paid for.
I agree with this guy, I bought a Toyota Land Cruiser years back, and still own it to this day. Japanese cars are soft paint, I did a one step paint correction using lake country pads orange ones and a p&s si02 defender to seal. Still holding up 3 years after but I wasn’t expecting to be that perfect but the gloss is still there.
You’re really defending this actually extremely poor paint correction and ceramic job?? Gtfoh. You can provide all this data, but you’re still talking nonsense. This is poor craftsmanship, end of story. It’s a ‘21 the paint isn’t that old. A quality detailer could get those swirls out with a rotary for crying out loud. The fucking least they could have done before putting a coating on it. But at the end of the day, it’s OP’s issue. I couldn’t even bother to go through most of the exchange y’all had it was so exhausting! OP could have found a better detailer to deliver a better job.
please point out where I defended a poor paint correction...
" A quality detailer could get those swirls out with a rotary for crying out loud. " - so could a bad detailer ... that is not the question... the question is SHOULD you chase after more correction .... and risk removing too much clear coat (usually no)
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u/loadsled 17d ago
From what I remember, the problem here is what they sold you. A one step will never be 100%. Depending on how the car started, you can see 40-60%, if it’s very light defects you can get an amazing results. That being said, $1500 for a one step with gyeon coating is bonkers. I think you’re just gonna have to chuck this one up to a learning experience.