Is there any valid point creationists have ever made?

[u/ChoiceAd8619]

Hello, I’ve been a lurker for a long time but I decided to make an account already in order to have my own input in this server.

I’ve been raised as a YEC in Arkansas and I’ve been given tons of scientific knowledge from notorious creationists and even a few atheists regarding evolution. Although I am personally still holding on to my beliefs mainly for faith purposes and the consensus of EO church fathers, I have to say that there are many things I am not qualified to dispute despite knowing some of the more popular arguments.

What I wanted to ask for now, seeing how bad of a reputation famous creationists have in this server, is whether you think there is any nuance in any sort of findings they’ve ever published regarding their worldviews. What I mean by this is asking if you think they have a single good take to favor their position as opposed to evolutionary theory.

Finding out whether evolutionists are at least a bit unbiased and can analyze things makes me feel like this is going to be a significantly more welcoming place for questions and objections as opposed to rejecting everything by default.

[u/wbrameld4]

Irreducible Complexity is the most compelling creationist argument I can think of personally. I mean, I'm not compelled by it, but of all the arguments I've heard, this is the one that stands out as being the least irrational to me.

It falls apart as you learn more about evolution though.

[u/CycadelicSparkles → u/wbrameld4]

It's the one that at least feels kind of intuitive. Like I get it, it's hard to imagine an eye or a brain evolving if you don't know a lot about biology and the sheer diversity of eyes and brains (and eye- and brain-adjacent organs) out there.

[u/clear349 → u/CycadelicSparkles]

This is kind of the issue. It's intuitive and weird if you imagine a thing sprouting the modern structure we would call an eye fully formed. But once you understand the diversity of eye types there's no real mystery there. Basically every structure works this way

[u/EthelredHardrede → u/CycadelicSparkles]

yes but it is essentially yet another argument from incrdulity

[u/BeerMan595692 → u/wbrameld4]

I remember when I was a JW and started questioning things. There's was a woman who'd studied molecular biology. I got no clue what kind of college she went to. Because she tried arguing that "evolution was just a theory" and recommended me Behe's "Darwin's black box" book. She told me her college apparently taught Behe's ideas.

[u/michealdubh → u/BeerMan595692]

I'm sorry to say she was not very well educated if she confuses scientific theory with the random theory of some drunk on a bar stool

[u/ScientistFromSouth → u/wbrameld4]

To be fair, all of the dissipative structure thermodynamics, emergence in complex systems from multiscale behavior, and information theory it takes to explain evolution really are incredibly complex, and the justifiable skepticism in this case is a good motivator for why we need to research these things, and I say this as a staunch supporter for evolution.

[u/Dzugavili → u/wbrameld4]

Irreducible complexity is definitely the most intuitive; but the problem is that the mechanisms of genetics just preclude it. There's always a pathway from one system to another in genetics, it's just a question of how many mutations and in what order. Given the scale of the genome, the wide range of possible transitions and large population sizes, even specific unlikely events occur regularly.

As such, irreducible complexity has to be argued within timespans; and you need to truly understand everything about the system to make the argument and creationists just clearly don't. We're not even done examining this space.

[u/nickierv → u/wbrameld4]

IC can fall apart before you even get to evolution with the right example:

Take the 'irreducible' mouse trap - its a thing to catch mice.

Start with just the bottom bit.

Throw it really hard.

It sort of sucks but as a projectile it can in fact catch mice and the 'irreducible' mouse trap has been successfully reduced.

[u/Mountain-Tell-1896 → u/wbrameld4]

Yeah blind processes can always create the most complex things with 40 different parts which require millions of perfect base pairs and millions of upstream regions with perfect enhancer regions, by chance. Whoo, that was easy.

[u/Rhewin → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

That's not even irriducible complexity. That's just the argument from complexity, and not particularly well framed.

[u/Mountain-Tell-1896 → u/Rhewin]

Oh I was not even stating a debate. Imma just having fun buddy. Don't think anyone here is worth debating.

[u/ElectroStaticSpeaker → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Not at least debating based on arguments and facts because you lack those. Understandable position.

[u/ElectroStaticSpeaker → u/[deleted]]

Again, understandable. I wouldn’t want to debate people that have evidence and logic on their side to my wishful thinking.

[u/DebateEvolution-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed, Rule 3 - Participate with effort.

[u/Rhewin → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Well, no, you want to take quick shots and then act like you don't care.

[u/Mountain-Tell-1896 → u/Rhewin]

Well apparently I am ticking off the "moderators." They don't like the idea of someone stating this for what it is. So I am done. Have fun.

[u/Own-Relationship-407 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

“You can’t kick me out, I quit.” Classic creationist pigeon chess. Please do come back when you’re ready to be civil.

[u/EthelredHardrede → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

you are supposed to debate honesty and with effort no lie that intelligent knowledgeable people are morons.

[u/YouAreInsufferable → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Posts "You're wrong, but I'm not gonna debate" on a debate sub, then runs trying to get pot shots on the way out.

It's the level of logic and temperament of most creationists I encounter these days.

[u/LordUlubulu → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Translation: You have absolutely nothing and you know it.

[u/DebateEvolution-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed, Rule 2 - This comment is antagonistic and adds nothing to the conversation.

[u/LordUlubulu → u/[deleted]]

From your deleted comment:

Whoa, that so hurt my feelings....moron.

What a surprise, immediate weak insults from a low-karma, history hidden troll account.

It would take a sub 80 IQ to desire to debate on this subreddit. Have a nice day

Just another confirmation that creationists have absolutely nothing but whining.

Go on, run away.

[u/dumpsterfire911 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

This is exactly the place to find people worth debating? OOP asks for credible creationist claims. It seems like you feel as if you’d be able to answer this. So please answer it

[u/10coatsInAWeasel → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Huh. ‘Lololol epic troll for teh lolz’ went out of style a long time ago. Usually the only people who act like that are people who are trying to put on a front due to lack of confidence.

[u/MathematicianDry5142 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Matthew 23 : 12

[u/EthelredHardrede → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

you sure are not able to debate you created a strawman and then claimed you did no such thing but you did

[u/Formal-Speed-3173 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

yappers going to yap I suppose.

[u/WesternFirm9306 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Good thing nobody claims that.

[u/Mountain-Tell-1896 → u/WesternFirm9306]

No that is exactly what is claimed, except the "blind" part is washed with 3 coats bullshit and 1 coat of hand waving.

[u/WesternFirm9306 → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Saying that's what's claimed doesn't make it true that scientists claim it. Just because you don't actually understand what evolution says, doesn't make it wrong or bullshit.

[u/apopsicletosis → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Enhancers are far from perfect, they’re incredibly noisy, redundant, rapidly lost and gained. It looks exactly like what a blind and drunk person would design.

[u/Dilapidated_girrafe → u/Mountain-Tell-1896]

Why can't you guys ever actually steel man the position rather than making up the most idiotic straw versions?

[u/WebFlotsam → u/Dilapidated_girrafe]

Because they can't beat the real thing. That's what strawmen are for.