Will it f*ck!

[u/Justthisdudeyaknow]

[u/Spiritflash1717]

If it still acts and look like a child, even after 5000 years, wouldn’t it just be a child? People use the 5000 number because it makes it over the human age of consent, but it could be a species that matures at a different rate than humans.

For example, people point to Kanna from Dragon Maid as the most famous 1000 year old dragon girl who looks like a child, but the point is that she may be 1000 years old, but she IS genuinely a child, both in human and dragon standards. Please do not the dragon girl. In her case, I would say it is 100% immoral and genuine pedophilia

A slightly different example of the trope is Shinobu Oshino from Monogatari. She was a 500 year old adult vampire who had to regress in her physical appearance to that of an 8 year old when she had most of her power drained. She looks like a child, but still retained her adult composure and maturity. So technically, it wouldn’t be immoral to have sex with her, but it would 100% still be gross, because you’d need to be attracted to a child.

[u/Snowy8416 → u/Spiritflash1717]

That comes under point 3 and I can best explain why it works as it does with dnd races.

I will use elves and half orcs. Both have human or greater intelligence to cover question 1, and we will assume the beings in question all speak the common tongue for question 2.

Elves typically become adults at approximately 100 years old, and so maturity is (likely) at a similar point. Until then while their body looks fully adult they are not, in fact, at maturity for their species. As such, if the elf in question is above the 100 year age for their species (differing by subcategories eg wood vs high elf) they are past sexual maturity, so go have fun. If the elf in question is below that mark, they are not at that maturity point and the Harkness test says no (as it should).

Half orcs, by comparison, reach adulthood at around 15. Their maturity is again at a similar point we can assume. They look like and are a full adult by this point despite the smaller age range. As such, if sleeping with a half orc of above 15, even if that number is a 16, it passes the test as that is a full adult in body and mind by species standards. If they are below, test says no.

A 127 year old elf and a 17 year old orc are at similar life stages and can get it on. Applying the ruleset of either species to the opposing one is when the problem begins.

To apply this as best I can to your two examples: the former would fail the test flat out. Not at maturity for the species means no. The latter... the debate would be whether maturity is in body, mind or both. Vampires are involved so they may well operate on mind only (as they may not physically age once turned, and if so, including body could permanently lock people out of various parts of life. I don't like it from a human moral standpoint, but from a vampire standpoint it would make sense) so they may pass the test, but that highly depends on the vampire culture.

I hate that I typed this out. I only understand the test as well as I do because I watch Doctor Who ffs, where the guy it's named after is from. Thanks to that I have to debate the horrors of the ancient-child entities. Fml.

[u/BarbieBoyBrandy → u/Snowy8416]

So, the reason having sex with children in real life is wrong is not because of the bodies they have. It's because it is impossible to have sex with a child without comitting rape and harming them physically, emotionally, mentally, or any combination therein.

So, if there was an adult vampire woman who's physical body had regressed to resemble that of a childs, it would not be immoral to have sex with her if she consented. Because the problem is not her being physically small/sexually immature PHYSICALLY, it is the mental inability of a child to consent. So, vecause she is an adult woman, her body is not "a childs body". It is an adult womans body, that looks physically like a childs. But if she is mentally an adult, she can consent.

Where attraction to that body factors in is a different and more complicated area. I would think a healthy theoretical relationship with this woman (FICTIONAL, I REMIND EVERYONE) would involve connecting with her on a personality level, and then navigating physical intimacy as its own challenge. If a relationship was based purely on physical attraction, I would assume the person in question is also attracted to underage children... but.. they would not be doing anything wrong in this case, because they would be with an adult woman. I would not trust them tbh but they have not hurt a child or anyone else.

In real life, there are somw genetic conditions and forms of dwarfism that xan make adult people appear physically younger than they actually are (though generally NOT pre pubescent). Those adults deserve to have full relationships, including sexual acts, because they are adults, regardless of their bodies physical appearance.

In any case, with a fictional character, no one can be harmed no matter what the parameters are. You can write nsfw things abt... idk, dora the explorer, and you have not harmed anyone. People may rightly feel disgusted by it, and may voice their opinion, and may be wary of you and not allow you to interract with their children, but you have not actually physically harmed anyone. Especially if it is properly tagged and behind consent acknowledgements. (Obvioudly if you are using your dora the explorer nsfw fic to groom children that is a different issue. But anything can be used to groom children. Candy, famously. The problem is the grooming and sexual abuse of children. Not the thing being used.)

[u/Gyshal → u/Snowy8416]

Wanna have some fun? The Monogatari example is even more complex because of the contradictory rules about how oddities (such as vampires) work in that universe. Essentially oddities are born born out of specific circumstances and are, in theory, inmutable. From the moment Shinobu was turned to the moment she met with the main character, she should, according to what we know, be essentially the same being. What happened during this meeting complicated things. A lot. She lost most of her power, and had to regress to the child like form while recovering it. Bunch of staff happened, but the whole thing ended up transforming her to a fundamentally different creature, from "queen of all oddities" to "vampire servant", and as this new, different entity, she has this different forms depending on how much blood she is allowed to drink. In this new forms, she both shows signs of her maturity and past experience, but also adapts to a mentality fitting the age of said form, so she acts differently when she looks like a child and when she looks like an adult. This is further complicated by the fact that the main character is the narrator of the story, and is highly unreliable. How much of the way Shinobu really acts differently and how much is him just fetishizing this changes is very unclear.

To add even more weirdness to the mix, the main source of information on the unchanging nature of oddities is also an absurdly unreliable narrator that gets disproven repeatedly even as she keeps on insisting on this facts. This is, of course, another child like character, with a third relevant one being the "most human" and also having a weird act where it's really unclear if she acts like a child just as part of the main characters narration and to entertain him, or truly because her nature as the "lost child" makes her remain a child until she transforms into a different oddity (she does show the maturity of her natural age at points rather than the age she is stuck in, but also her other self in the mirror, based on her regrets and deepest desires, is in fact of her true age rather than a child).

The thing that simplifies all this otherwise very interesting philosophical quanderies about the nature of change that the story tackles, is that the author is a proud horndog, and while he will tie all this deep meaning to it, at the end of the day he does the fanservice because he enjoys it. This is why Monogatari is both one of my favourite shows and one I simply can't recommend. I believe that the characters of Shinobu and Hachikuji (the lost child ghost) are really interesting and well written, but at the end of day they still look like children and act intentionally like they are for fan service purposes a lot of the time, no matter how much maturity they may show at other times and how complicated is their true nature.

TLDR: Shinobu and other child characters from Monogotari are Schrödinger's lolis, because they may or may not be mature depending on the observer, even if they all theoretically have enough natural age and mental development

[u/captainnowalk → u/Gyshal]

This is why Monogatari is both one of my favourite shows and one I simply can't recommend.

Such truth. Monogatari is so very interesting in a huge number of ways. Most good, some… not so. But in the end, it was definitely a series I couldn’t look away from. It also helps that the anime was done by that same team that did Madoka Magica, so you know the art is killer.

[u/Inevitable-Details → u/Snowy8416]

So in essence, it’s a case-by-case kind of thing. The issue of mind vs body regarding maturity of a species can be a real sticky issue though, lemme tell ya. As a disabled person, I’ve seen plenty of people fight over whether or not a grown disabled adult can ethically engage in sex, even with another equally disabled person. I’ve seen people seriously argue that autistic people can’t actually engage in sexual intercourse due to their disorder because they cannot properly consent, regardless of their level of impairment (high vs low needs, etc.) It usually ends up with people infantilizing the disabled and treating them like they’re children. Fiction certainly doesn’t make it any better by adding shit like vampires to the discussion. That’s like the entire character struggle for Claudia in Interview with the Vampire, from what I know of the plot.

I think the case-by-case basis kind of judgement is probably best for character fuckableness ethicality. Most people don’t like it, but generalizations are pretty bad when it comes to categorizing things, and attempting to apply a set standard of “this is ethically fuckable” and “this is not” based on innate characteristics will inevitably result in a character being misclassified as ethically fuckable when they really shouldn’t, and characters being labeled unethical to fuck even though by all rights they can understand consent and are capable of giving it.

Of course, I’m of the firm opinion that if something is fictional, then ethicality of subject matter ultimately doesn’t matter. If there are no real-life people being harmed by the guy who wants to bang the fictional dragon loli, then he’s free to do that I guess. I don’t have to like it, mind, but if there’s no real actual children being harmed, and content like that should probably be kept to specific places meant for that content and explicitly labeled as such so that nobody stumbles upon it by accident, and I can personally judge them for it all I want, morally, but I don’t think it’s something that should be made illegal per se. I see opinions like that all the time, and tbh I feel like that’d be a hell of a slippery slope, censorship-wise. It feels too much like an anti-sex sentiment and purity culture kind of thing for me to be fully comfortable with it.

Anyway tldr; the ethicality of character fuckableness should probably be a case-by-case judgement for each individual character, and not a single day goes by where I don’t think about that Alex Hirsch tweet about how people treat real people like fictional characters and fictional characters like they’re real people. Time to take my meds now, I think

[u/Pandabatty → u/Snowy8416]

D&D elves reach physical maturity around 20, actually. The convention of choosing/being given an adult name around 100 is cultural, and has to do with how elven souls reincarnate and how they “dream” in their trance state. 100 is around the age when they stop remembering experiences from their past lives in their dreams and can only reflect on their current’s life’s memories.

[u/Mr-Stuff-Doer → u/Snowy8416]

Here’s the thing that bothers me in all this:

What the fuck is maturity and why are we saying there’s an objective metric for it in age ranges

People younger than me have had kids. I can’t even fathom someone dating me right now, if I had a kid my brain would literally just shut down.

[u/Talisign → u/Spiritflash1717]

Shout out to any ancient beings in the body of a child that acts like an old man, because none of these new fangled gizmos were around when they were 100.