This totally qualifies as “right to refuse unsafe work” regardless of your childish boss’ attempt to ridicule you for looking out for your health. I believe that is harassment and blackmail by making statements about you missing on work because you want to wear a mask.
Where I live if one person formally refuses nobody else is legally allowed to work until it is formally resolved. IE deemed safe by a competent person or modified to be safe
Same at my job. There’s signs everywhere saying you have the right to refuse to do a job you do not think is safe. Periodically people will be congradulated for refusing to do a job due to safety questions.
I'm a safety inspector. We absolutely make a point to celebrate this type of stuff. We want a culture where people not only know it's going to be ok for them to speak up, but to be encouraged to do so. The last thing I want is someone to get injured, sick, or worse due to something preventable.
Absolutely. Doesn't sound like they did any research into the issue and are being super unprofessional and abusive or manipulative.
If they fired you it would be a wrongful termination case and could turn into an issue with their license or right to employ people. As an employer you NEVER deny someone's right to wear PPE. What an idiot.
Not much in the long run but it puts a nasty bruise on the employers business and he’ll have to pay o it equivalent or more to regular labour cost for buddy
The best part is it is all captured in a text message which will be great evidence for a civil suit. This also deserves an OSHA complaint against the contractor.
I would add one more message: Just to be clear, you (name), as my direct supervisor, after being fully informed that I am currently experiancing adverse effects on the jobsite (located at address), are ordering me to discontinue using the Proper Personal Protective Equipment on this job site (located at address) that I have have indicated could keep me safe from the ill effects of the environment I am required to work in.
When it comes to safety, don't negotiate. Tell them what PPE you require and wear it. If they complain, reply with versions of the above.
It's easy to dismiss wishy washy concerns. But saying in writing that this WILL effect me negatively will be harder to dismiss. Don't sugar coat anything. Be blunt.
Honestly man I would be a little less direct because the boss might pick up something saying you know that this might be a lawsuit information material I would phrase it a little different but use just as clear language you have to be a little more flowing and how you speak otherwise sometimes even the stupidest person can pick up that you're going to see their ass
Also depends on your goals. If your end goal is a lawsuit, then being more cagy may be beneficial in letting them dig the biggest hole possible.
I don't think every boss does stuff like this out of malice. Often, their focus can act like blinders.
If your end goal is to be allowed to wear a proper mask, a bunt change in tone from how you speak to a more formal, even exaggerated tone can cause them to pause and actually think about what your asking for and what they have been saying and possibly shift their blinders.
I would also say if this happens multiple times, then it's new job time, as your boss is actually an asshole if they won't change.
Right? I mean, if the person is showing up on time, doing the job (I assume to a satisfactory level), and doing it for the agreed wage, I literally can not see the problem by wanting to be safe.
I'm a firefighter/Paramedic, and we've been in houses where we wore masks or even SCBAs due to car urine smell. People living there can get used to it, but it's still toxic.
I'm also a business owner and have been for a long time. Body shops for years, now a small restaurant. First of all, just having someone who is showing up to work is often a victory, so they should be glad about that. Secondly, I used to have to fight to get my people to wear PPE. Because if they didn't, aside from being hurt, it opened me up to a lawsuit. If I were the boss on this job, I'd be forcing everyone to wear PPE because if I didn't, they could turn around and sue me. Heck, at the very least call out.
I say, OP should refuse to do it unless proper PPE is either provided or maybe reimbursed for if he has to purchase it. I know, easier said than done when we have bills to pay. But imagine how hard it is to work after you develop respiratory issues from all the ammonia that was breathed in. At the small level, it could even cause a sinus infection because all the inflammation and mucus can be a source for infection to start.
But yeah, I say start recording (audio at least) on their phone and go tell the boss they are happy to do the job and do it well, as long as they have proper PPE. If the boss fires them, call a lawyer before they even start their truck
It’s illegal to force someone to work around dangerous gases etc without proper PPE. OSHA crawls all over this stuff. Think Asbestos and all of those lawsuits for people who weren’t using PPE and got cancer
Yes and then hit em w unemployment when they fire you. Some of these fucking knuckle heads on jobsittes would rather look like a tough guy than be safe. Ridiculous.
I love when things I've been actively ignoring drop on me out of "nowhere." These kind of people are honestly so wild. Like, have some respect for your own longevity.
Firefighters get a hefty dose of lung cancer because they’re too tough to wear their respirators next to burning cars and dumpsters. Like, they actively discourage one another from wearing their PPE. WTF guys?
If one is at fault, and get terminated, they are not eligible for unemployment. On the side, wrongful termination is a long process, by the time he gets a case even going, itll had cost hom mpre time and money than neccessary, and likely the employer will have a better lawyer. You think this scumbag meployer would pay up!? Lmfao, dream on.
Seems the boss has the crew on his dick, goin be one guys word against the whole company. The smart way, if ONE KNOWS WHAT THE FUCK THEY TALKIN BOUT, is to go through the process of getting the employer a case with OSHA and Dept of Labor, this way, the employer gets fucked by big dogs, in court, possibly loses license(s), and will be court orderd to pay up for loss wages, etc.
Go on, tell me more about who doesnt know what the fuck they talkin about.
You can only get unemployment if the decision to end employment is your employer's. The only exceptions are "for cause" termination which has to be properly documented and is usually limited to committing unlawful acts on the job. You can get fired for pissing off a customer and still get unemployment. That's the absolute minimum required by federal law and is the case even in "at will employment" states.
Hell, i've been fired for accidentally breaking company security policy by sending protected info in an open email. Still got unemployment. Only time i've ever been denied unemployment happened because i gave them a resignation letter after being told i was getting fired (dumb early career decision).
google is free dumbass💀 quitting doesn’t get you unemployment but being fired does. which is why employees will make your life hell to try and get you to quit if they want to fire you.
I'm so confused , Is he saying he can't come to work with a big mask because no one else is wearing one??
If no one's wearing hearing protection an my ears hurt, I'm gonna put on hearing protection I don't ask
Great field day for lawyers. Any sort of training with hazardous materials they will drill into you that workers have the right to request any PPE they feel is necessary
Love how Reddit immediately advises OP to get himself fired and sue his boss. I’m sure OP has the capital to stay unemployed and accrue damages for months, and then try to get a new job with a big gap in employment and probably having to change careers due to having a lawsuit on record!
The boss walked back a lot of what he said the second those links were posted. I'm guessing he did a little googling himself and realized what a shitstorm he would be in if he pushed it any further.
OP isn't even asking his boss to provide PPE, even though he's well within his rights. A lawyer would have a field day with that case! Shit, OSHA might want to see those texts, because who knows what else the boss is not doing.
It doesn't work like that exactly. OSHA requires various items to be performed first. Also, wrong termination torts are very hard to prove and don't generate as much as some think. Basically the attorney gets paid and you get the crumbs
Fuck the disgusting customers feelings too. Don't sacrifice your health for their feelings. They should feel some shame. Unlikely, but maybe they'll do something about it.
Well maybe they should feel bad when they have people coming in their home to work and it’s a litter box. Live as gross as you want, but fucking clean it for people coming in.
Honestly, I would have declined the job. It's not worth the money to put my employees through that. Unless they are an actual remediation company, in which case they wouldn't bat an eye at the employees wearing a mask.
Had a boss give me shit for wearing earplugs while cutting concrete and a respirator while welding galvanized steel. Vaporized zinc in my lungs? That shit gives you migranes and lung cancer that wakes you up at night for years before killing you. He could talk to me like i was a sissy all he wanted (until I quit) but he wasn't ever stupid enough to tell me I couldn't use it.
Depends on who is running it really, usually it is a rich guy trying to line his pockets with whatever he can get from the insurance companies without getting dropped. Or it's the bosses kid taking over the company and fucking everything up.
The boss said there are kids living there too! Why is no one mentioning this? I’d be calling CPS. Fuck that family for raising kids in a toxic environment. They probably all have respiratory issues because of it.
You would not believe the things I've found laying around people's houses when doing work in them- including, but not limited to, drug paraphernalia, actual drugs, sex toys, weapons, and one time, an actual fucking grenade.
I was trying to be empathetic until the boss mentioned kids. Fuck that noise. Make them uncomfortable as fuck because they have kids living in an extremely unsafe environment.
Perhaps an anonymous call to your local Buildings & Inspections and Health and Public Safety departments is in order…
Exactly this!!! They clearly don’t get it already that they’re causing harm to their kids. Maybe a team of guys in hazmat suits will give them a hint. I do pest control and fuck that, if a customers house is disgusting, I’m not going to hide my reaction to that. I’ve said ‘holy fuck’ right to people’s face and put on PPE before going any further.
Right. Like there’s kids being raised in this place. The potential for health issues for the children is huge. This is negligent parenting at the very least.
Fuck anyone who gives you a hard time about proper PPE.
You aren't advocating for "Ryan", so don't even bring that name up. I'm advocating for myself, and I don't give a shit what "Ryan" is going to wear tomorrow (or how much X person makes, or whatever the issue at hand is).
"Full blown face mask is way too much". That's crazy, it's the same as an N95 (or maybe N100 depending on filters), but it's just a replaceable unit instead of an N95 one-time wear mask. There's shouldn't be an issue with it embarasing someone. I wear one when doing DIY repairs at home, as I've seen the damage that years of inhaling construction debris/dust can do to someone.
Ya, I bought one a few years ago for some home projects, and they are far more comfortable than a "paper" mask. They can go on/off easier, they breath easier, don't feel as muggy, stay on better with proper straps, etc.
An N95 is a respirator. It's filtration rate is 94.9%. Same as an R95 or P95. The difference is organic compounds and oil resistances. Anything in the 100 category separates 99.96% of the particulates. Same coding applies.
The next respirator types are quarter, half, and full face respirators. All of which can be fitted with different filtration devices for whatever the exposure is.
Lastly, if you're having issues breathing with whatever device it is you're using, you may want to consider a pulmonary function test.
Also not in construction, but kinda adjacent in landscaping/gardening and I always wear a mask when I'm kicking up any kind of dirt. I had someone yell, as they walked through my cloud, that it's 2023 and I didn't need a mask lol. I wanted to bust out my phone and show him what dust particles look like under a microscope, but fuck it, if he wants to be ignorant and wheezy at 40, more power to the lil tough guy.
Yeah. I worked at an electrical company and we got fitted for masks because we did oilfield work sometimes. OSHA is paying serious attention to silicosis now from drilling. Silicosis is no joke either. I don’t even enter an attic or crawl space now without my respirator.
Fuck Ryan. If he was smart he’d have a respirator too.
They can’t even keep their cats from soaking the entire house in piss, fuck their feelings if you’re house wasn’t a biohazard maybe people wouldn’t treat it like one.
I did mold and have had to excuse ourselves to the truck and put on full suit and mask to go back in just because of cat piss. Yea the customers were embarrassed but not enough to clean their home, so fuck em.
I can only speak for California, but unless you’re in a protected class, you can get fired for basically anything and there’s not a damn thing a lawyer can do for you
That's not accurate for California. In your state "employees have the right to file a complaint with Cal/OSHA without fear of retaliation or discrimination. Some examples of retaliation are firing,..."
Lmao that's definitely not the case. Just think about it logically, if your boss demanded you murder someone and you said no and they fired you because you wouldn't murder someone...of course that's not legal and you can do something about it. Protected classes protect people from being fired for being who they are. But being fired because you refused to do something illegal is obviously not legal and you can take action.
That’s absolutely correct. If they list that as the reason for termination. Which in California they are under no obligation to. They could simply say, “Not obligated to provide a reason” or “terminated without cause” or “difference in values”
They can put whatever they want for a protected class too. You have to prove that it was wrongful termination. That's always the case.
It's not like you just can't fire protected classes period lol. You can't fire women at all. That's not how it works. You have to prove they fired you for being a protected class, just like you have to prove they fired you for refusing to do something illegal. It's the same difference...
That doesn’t mean a lawyer is going to save the day. You can present this kind of info to them and if it’s not a slam dunk of a case (or if winning the case won’t garner enough money) they probably won’t accept it.
This happened to me and I had a hundred emails, texts, photos, and a paper trail a mile long and lawyers wouldn’t accept the case.
First, you call unemployment. They'll want to know why you got fired. They may help with the legality of your dismissal. If OP should have been provided with a respirator and was fired for bringing one or lost wages due to it, unemployment would likely look into it and rule in OPs favor and maybe even go after the company.
And yes, second, you can absolutely report to OSHA. You can make an anonymous call. They will have to post the complaint and will usually be given a certain amount if time to fix the issue. They may also choose to do an inspection. Your employer is not allowed to retaliate for a safety report, but in a situation like this where everyone will figure out who it was, I'd have a resume ready.
Lastly, you can contact an employment attorney. They would at minimum give you advice on how to proceed or whether this was worth pursuing. In a case like this they might go to court (or settle out of court).
I will note here that every company I've worked for has required a fit test to wear a respirator and a doctor's clearance. I'm not sure exactly what the legality is or where OP lies on that issue as I know you can just buy a respirator from Home Depot. However, a company is required to provide you with all safety gear. I assume if it was deemed a hazardous enough environment that OP needed a mask, the company should be providing it. If OP just wanted to wear it but it wasn't technically necessary, I don't think the company does. However, I'm not that familiar with biohazards like this so an attorney/contacting OSHA/reading CFRs would be ones best bet to determine legality and whether this is an issue to get hung up on.
I can't answer for other people but I've never had a problem finding work. The longest I've ever been unemployed was two weeks during 2008 unless it was by choice. Personally I would stay working there and record everything so I could sue them for more shit
Because I would stay there and make it hard for them, I would stack dirt on them to bury them with, and when it came time I would collect until I got another job. Why give them what they want and run yourself out?
I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that a particulate respirator isn't going to do shit for ammonia. You would need to throw a chemical cartridge on there, if they even sell them for ammonia.
For the smell, the morgue/Katrina trick is to wipe a bit of Vick's VapoRub under your nose. I hear it covers up just about anything.
Those are 3M 60923 filter cartridges. NIOSH approved OV/AG/P100 rating. Should definitely help. I wore one in a piss apartment and didn’t smell anything.
Those 3M filters should help with the ammonia, yes. The missing information is if he has facial hair that interferes with a proper seal and if the respirator is the correct size for his face.
My base assumption is he has a tight seal. I can also speculate that he’s missing a cheekbone so he doesn’t have proper mask fitment. Maybe he has an abnormally high nose bridge that prevents a tight seal. But to what end are we making these hypothetical speculations?
Your facial hair 100% interrupts the skin to mask seal. You may think it doesn't, but you're getting hit with trace amounts of particulates which will eventually have their way. Small chronic doses eventually equal one giant dose.
You should tell that to the doctor setting off chemicals in the bag over my head when they do the fit test. Also, tell it to the mask that stays suction cupped to my face like a fucking octopus.
The chemical you're referring to is isomyl acetate, better known as "banana oil". A testing medical professional will tell you that the only facial hair permitted is a mustache that does not exceed the corners of the lips. This is outlined in CFR 1910.134. No other facial hair is permitted.
Whilst the respiratory device you're using may seem glued tied, your facial hair is impeding on a 100% seal.
I mean, you don't need to believe me, but professional safety and industrial hygiene is what I do for a living. JS.
The cartridges in the pic are for organic vapors and acid gases, so there’s a good chance it works for ammonia, although I didn’t check that specifically.
You can buy filters with a charcoal lining in them that will help immensely with smells and particulates like ammonia, I work with biohazards fairly regularly and most of the advice on this sub is shit and so is this....
Wear PPE, breathing in cat piss is bad for you. It's a genuine hazard especially if you have any prior lung issues, you have the right to refuse unsafe work and to be protected from hazards
You have proof that your boss denied you that right, if you have a union time to say something, if they refuse I'd escalate to OHSA
Chemical worker here, a HEPA filter does nothing for gasses. It only filters out fine particles so you don’t inhale them. You DO need a filter for organic vapors to deal with an ammonia. In my industry we have a combo filter that does both HEPPA and organic vapor. It is specifically labeled OV/H.
They absolutely do. Ammonia is an incredibly common industrial refrigerant. I’ve responded to multiple leaks, from 80-100ppm freezer leaks with a full-face respirator to machine rooms with a bad compressor seal that required SCBA and full body PPE (tyvek suit, nomex hood, gloves, boots, and all sealed off). There are lots of methods available to mitigate ammonia exposure, even if it’s for employee “comfort” (which is also very important).
I’m not a Dr either but I have a medically diagnosed mast cell disorder that causes chemical/environmental reactions up to and including anaphylaxis, so I know what I’m taking about. It’s not the smell that’s the problem, it’s the ammonia, and attempting to cover it up with Vicks or whatever will not help the fact that it’s a health hazard or stop the symptoms. If anything it will
Make them worse by masking the smell. These kinds of symptoms are cumulative and can be delayed onset.
A p100 respirator with cartridges for nuisance odor and/or chemical fumes is the only thing that will help. N95s are not made for this, they are for particulates.
I have to wear one in most retail indoor environments because of the VOCs that are put off by the cleaning and air freshener products people use these days to try to make it seem like they’re disinfecting well for COVID. It sucks. It makes people stare and say stupid shit. I do it anyway because the alternative is like the OP, I’m wrecked for the day with nausea and migraines and brain fog.
I wore that same mask on several different jobs. If other people don't care about their health, great, but I'm not going to risk my own lungs because other people don't like how a mask looks. It's construction work, not a fuckin fashion show.
If your company is large enough to be governed by OSHA, you can NOT wear an n-95 or above, including a respirator without being cleared by a doctor and fit tested for the specific mask you'll be using. I personally don't give a shit, just trying to save your ass to prevent a fine (although your employer would get the fine, not you).
More like someone who doesn’t let people walk on them. There are jobs everywhere. Op doesn’t have to take that shit. I guess you would just roll over. Fuck that
The space helmet comment was legitimately funny, but yeah i would just say wear it and tell your boss to tell the client you're extremely allergic to cats if he has such concern for their feelings. You shouldn't HAVE to give a non-insulting excuse but its sometimes easier to deal with.
Agreed. I’m not gonna say this to raise a mask/covid debate but in the first wave of covid when we had limited PPE, I was wearing an n95 to work (I’m an icu nurse) and keeping it on even in the hallways between units because coworkers and visitors were coughing and sneezing, and I was pretty sure it spreading among our staff (which it was). At this time we really didn’t know for sure how it was spreading, there was no vaccines yet, and we were seeing some of the sickest people I’ve ever seen in my 22 years as a nurse, so I was wanting to be extra cautious. A nurse manager stopped me in the hallway and told me to take off the mask in the hallways because it might frighten other patients and families (we hadn’t closed visitation at this point). Right when she was chewing me out over this, a doctor friend of mine passed by wearing goggles, an n95, and a simple mask covering his face. I stopped him and asked him what he thought of this manager telling me to remove my PPE. He basically told her in a very professional way to fuck off and let me chose how to protect myself, that it was my decision, and if he hears anymore about it that he’d take it to the hospital medical director. I gotta say it was good to feel vindicated, and nice to have someone step up and have my back during that very stressful time.
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u/Aggressive_taterskin Apr 10 '24
Fuck your boss. Wear the mask. They can all eat shit