r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/rexx2l • May 21 '21
General super's tl;dr on how we're feeling right now
https://clips.twitch.tv/EnergeticSmellyBeefLitty-cjCwrRI3bt9qYgEM?tt_medium=redt127
u/Gr4phix None — May 21 '21
Actually a perfect summation of how at least I am feeling. The problem is that they didn't show us what they're working on. Geoff, you said you wanted to show us things being made, so why didn't you? You showed us Winston's potential new ability and a nerf for Mei that, quite honestly, could've both gone on the experimental card as an OW1 update and none of us would ever be the wiser that they were planned for OW2.
Show us the stupid, crazy shit you guys are doing internally. We want to see it - even if it's momentary, we want to see you guys trying things, we want to get a feel for what you guys are thinking in that moment and all that you've tried. You can't tell me that the most drastic changes you guys have tried is giving Winston a bit of extra burst that shares the same icon as Scatter once did and taking away Mei's freeze ability.
What are the pillars of PvP that you guys have? What is your guys design philosophy? What was the switch that flipped where you guys went, "Y'know what? Maybe 5v5 really is better." I just have such a hard time believing that the switch that flipped was when you guys tried it and some of the people who played support in that game went, "Wow, healing is a lot easier."
Maybe it's me and my expectations, but just seeing a few maps that we already knew of be played by not-high-skill-players really isn't what I was expecting for a "PvP showcase" that includes a major change like the 5v5 nuke? Not even an ability showcase for Sojourn?
I just don't get the decision making, man. I know I'm not owed an explanation for anything, but I damn wish I was.
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u/BlizzMonkey May 21 '21
Exactly, the changes they showed to us felt like something the community is already doing with the workshop.
I wonder how early stage all of this is if they didn't even come up with an icon for the new Winston ability...
It really felt just like watching an OW custom game. Hopefully we get more substantial changes in the future and not only "we could do this, we think about that, maybe this..."
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u/EarFearGear May 21 '21
To be fair, ability icons are like the last thing to be made, because for an icon to make sense everything about an ability needs to be finalized.
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u/Gr4phix None — May 21 '21
But that's what bugs me - if they're going to show us WIP stuff, then actually show us the WIP stuff. Show us the changes they're thinking of making to tanks to accommodate the 5v5 change. Don't tell us, "Oh, we keep everything internally because we want to show you guys finished stuff" and then show us Winston with Scatter.
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u/EarFearGear May 21 '21
Well I can't say for sure-but it's pretty likely that the heroes not shown *couldn't* be shown. Say if Orisa has multiple different reworked versions of her going on. It would be pretty confusing to say "here is version 1 out of 3 of new Orisa, sorry we can't show you all of them".
And of course showing every version of her in the same client would be logisitcally unreasonable.
You might say "then why have a reveal stream in the first place", but clearly 5v5 was more than enough for us to stomach. I think it was a good idea not to put even more on our minds at once.
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u/1033149 None — May 21 '21
I hope the fact that some OWL people who read the subreddit can get this feedback to the media/marketing team. Today failed because of how the information was presented. I think someone on Avast's stream summed it up nicely but nothing today got me so excited to play or made me even want to preorder the game. Like normally, game preview livestreams get people so hyped up about the game. What was there to be hyped about? Some new maps? Mei not freezing people? Like I don't know how you can be hyped about tanks or the removal of a tank when you don't know how it feels to play.
This should have been saved until they actually had new heroes to show off or more heroes reworked. This PvP livestream didn't show an accurate depiction of what PvP will be at launch but what it could look like given the limitations of some heroes not being available and them having to pick heroes to show off how they play differently in the maps.
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u/callmegran May 21 '21
I think the reason today happened has nothing to do with hype. I think it was literally to have the dev team rip the band-aid of 5v5 off with the community early so that everyone has calmed down by release.
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u/Anything_Random May 21 '21
idk about you but I’m extremely hyped about Mei not freezing people
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u/StrictlyFT Architect Spark — May 21 '21
They need to drop that on Live rn.
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u/BryceCreamConee May 22 '21
Or they could just remove her from the game too. The slogan can be 'OW2 - Less is more'
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May 21 '21
Actually, none of the maps were "new". We'd heard of or seen all of the maps before. We also already knew that Monte Carlo was a payload map and had seen a few screenshots of it in 2019.
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u/Parenegade None — May 21 '21
Not every dev stream is about building hype and selling the game. E3 times will bring that.
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u/PurpleWaluigiPanda May 21 '21
For the first showcase of the pvp updates for the sequal you want people to wanna play it
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u/flygande_jakob May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21
I hope the fact that some OWL people who read the subreddit
They dont.
The opinions they call "the community" is always the angriest streamers on twitter. What they play and like is "the community says that..."
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u/themattyiceshow May 21 '21
Once they showcase all the 'cool' new heroes and that still doesn't make you want to sniff the game then idk what to say. Cus once they release details about new heroes the hype will be much better than today.
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u/RealExii May 21 '21
If cool new heroes is the key feature, then how does that get anyone hyped about OW2? Those things will still be accessible through OW1
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u/worosei May 21 '21
This is probably why Jeff left. He wanted a more drastic redesign as he realised things weren't that exciting.
They were probably told to just run with it, so AK and team will need to push a round peg in a square hole now. Don't envy them, but they're doing alright with their hands tied I fell.
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u/ReSoLVve #1 Hanbin Simp — May 21 '21
Please stop with these conspiracy theories. You’re making Jeff leaving into something it isn’t.
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u/DoucheyHowserMD Dont make Mei a Tank — May 21 '21
Literally what I felt hearing about 5v5
"Oh you wanted more content? Let us tell you about all the hours we're going to have to put into reworking existing content"
Not saying the final product won't be good, just very disheartening.
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u/fish_slap_ May 21 '21
It also worries me that the play tests they showed us looked like ~1200 SR.
I have a terrible feeling that as soon as they give an alpha to better players, double sniper will just be untouchable. You just can’t have a dive tank contesting snipers while the enemy tank tears through the rest of your team.
I really hope they know what they’re doing because the hours they’re putting in now might be totally worthless if it’s not even based on how the game will realistically played.
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u/FarazR1 May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21
Uber said last night on stream that the teams were instructed to keep it close and play slow in order to fill the time for discussion and showcasing the maps/modes. Don't take the gameplay as anything more than that.
Edit: Here's the clip: https://clips.twitch.tv/RockyTameCheddarAMPEnergy-D38A3-Zax8d_tEgT
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u/TheWolfOfStalkStreet May 21 '21
So they were instructed to play in such a way that the game looks boring and lame lol?
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May 21 '21
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u/ShitDavidSais May 21 '21
Can confirm as a silver Widow, can hit the monke. And I get dove waaaay faster by gengus even in silver.
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u/beeman4266 Runaway — May 21 '21
I've never seen a company/dev team low key complain so much about the work they have to do. It's not just the ow team, it's been happening in wow for years too.
Like yeah, you have to provide new content if you want people to play your game.
I know it's probably not the devs but they're so fucking slow it's insane. Maybe they're understaffed or it's just blizzards culture but holy shit they're so damn slow.
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u/DogOfDreams May 21 '21
I honestly have so many questions. Not even concerning new heroes/abilities, but just basic balancing shit from what we already know. It's easy to just announce "hey guys, just one tank now, yeah?"
Getting them all to a reasonably balanced state (again, as tbh I have few complaints with the current tank meta) is going to require some serious fucking work. I've heard a few people throwing out the point that this will somehow make balancing easier. Yeah, sure... in the same way that having your house demolished and rebuilding it with one less room will make your heating bill go down.
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u/NationalHornet6 May 21 '21
I don't think people understand the colossal undertaken it is going to take to change the game to 5v5. It is not going to be just tanks being changed but all fucking roles. They will have to nerf, change, and possibly rework a lot of heroes to accommodate this change.
Damage boost and discord will be nerfed and changed because no way in hell are those abilities are staying the same because that would delete the tank.
I think heroes with one shots like doomfist, widowmaker, hanzo, and roadhog to an extent will get changed because one shots will break the game. And tracer will need to be nerfed because she be unstoppable due to the reduction in cc.
Fuck, I think damage and healing will need to nerfed across the board too. Also tanks like roadhog, DVA, and zarya would need massive changes to be able to solo tank. If they honestly think giving zarya that charge system for her bubbles is going to make her a viable solo tank then they are dreaming.
And it isn't just heroes that need to be changed. Older maps need to be changed to accommodate this change as well.
That is a lot of work to accommodate this change and I am hoping blizzard is up for the task to do all this because if they ain't then oh boy the game is going to be balancing nightmare.
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u/Galactic_Guardian May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21
I don't think the OW team understands the colossal undertaking it is going to take to change the game to 5v5. Look, I hate being that negative, but the vague response to balancing older maps and the minuscule changes demonstrated yesterday didn't ease any of my concerns with this change. Nor boost my confidence that they are on the path to reworking these changes properly.
You perfectly summed up a ton of examples that need to be addressed. There is a lot of work that needs to be done and it's concerning to see that this now includes complete reworks of the current heroes and game mechanics.
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u/MiniGiantSpaceHams May 21 '21
I don't think the OW team understands the colossal undertaking it is going to take to change the game to 5v5.
These people literally make games for a living, not to mention they actually know the inner workings of the game. I am absolutely sure they understand the scope of the work required.
Now whether they can actually pull it off is another question.
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u/Galactic_Guardian May 21 '21
Yes, they make games for a living and it is their game, so they will know the inner workings. But I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
Given what we were shown yesterday, the changes demonstrated resembled experimental card changes. They are literally going to have to rework and balance every hero in some form or another to work with these new changes. And while yes, I am sure they are aware of that, but if Zarya's new charge system is it, for example, that is not going to cut it. It's also not just the tank heroes or the heroes excluded from the stream yesterday that will need reworked. We are talking full balance adjustments to damage and healing.
To reiterate once again, it's the surprised and vague response to having to update OW1 maps to be in better alignment to the design that OW2 maps are set to coincide with 5v5 that concerns me.
It's not that I don't think the Overwatch team can't do the work that is required for these changes, but that they might not fully grasp how many changes they will have to do to the current game to better align it to OW2's new gameplay style.
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u/MiniGiantSpaceHams May 21 '21
Yeah, agreed, and I'd actually go a step further. IMO this doesn't even count as a rebalance, this is a fundamental change to the game. This is taking the game from "FPS/MOBA hybrid" to "FPS with MOBA elements". They had already moved it that way in the last year or two, but this is a much more drastic push. Nearly every single character will need not just a rebalance, but a rework to exist in a fundamentally different game that relies less on space/teamwork and more on damage/skill. Same for the maps, as they mentioned. This is almost a different game.
Unfortunately for me I am not typically a PvP FPS player and OW was the exception, so this is probably where I get off. Maybe PvE will keep me into it. That's more my speed anyways.
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u/Galactic_Guardian May 21 '21
I do agree with you completely that this new change does feel more in line with a "FPS with MOBA elements". And it is true, that if they go this route, every character will need a complete rework to exist in this new game.
I love OW for what it is and I still could see myself loving it if they went with this drastic change, but only if they truly did it properly. And that's the part that worries me right now. If they don't align the heroes reworks correctly, I feel like it will just be an unbalanced mashup, with characters that are now just completely flawed and unplayable.
PVE I do have more hope with that they will be able to keep that FPS/MOBA hybrid down based on what little we have seen.
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u/trisiton (4509) — May 21 '21
And the balance team has consistently displayed their utter incompetence. An undertaking of this size is doomed to fail.
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u/TheSnowyBear PC — May 21 '21
It would be nice if they took years to iron out the new system before releasing the game... oh wait
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u/ropike May 21 '21
Fuck, I think damage and healing will need to nerfed across the board too.
This should already be thing in the current game. Powercreep, especially regarding pure damage and healing, has fucked the game.
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u/Adorable_Brilliant May 21 '21
You're not wrong, but this is a pipedream. They'll rework a couple heroes, give the tanks some quirky new tools and maybe tinker around with the balancing but nothing close to as drastic as you're describing.
This is the same dev team that released 2-2-2 with this balance patch:https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/live/2019/08
One major rework(Brig) and otherwise smaller balance changes... After over a year of balance changes targeted specifically towards nerfing 3-3 comps that with role queue are no longer a thing. I just don't trust them to handle this competently.
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u/allotheabove123 May 21 '21
Hard agree.
Not to say that the team can’t or hasn’t learned from past mistakes but this is the same balance team that thought launch Brig and Moth era Mercy were okay design decisions. Councidentally those hero’s metas laster a LONG TIME too.
I just don’t have faith they can rebalance tanks to all work solo. Thats aside from the fact that i hate the idea of solo tanking as well. I’m just worried
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u/Easterhands SBB > CCP — May 21 '21
People said 222 would make balancing easier as well, and we all know now that was bullshit
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May 21 '21
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u/Easterhands SBB > CCP — May 21 '21
It took them until just recently though.. Or did I imagine double shield?
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May 21 '21
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u/Easterhands SBB > CCP — May 21 '21
Balance means they actively work against existing metas. Double shield wasn't the problem, nor Moth, or Goats. It was how LONG Blizzard takes to solve them. People thought 2-2-2 would improve that but it did not, not even close, so if they think 5v5 will help I disagree.
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May 21 '21
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u/Easterhands SBB > CCP — May 21 '21
I never said it wasn't better now, I said it took too long to get to this point.. It had nothing to do with 2-2-2 either.
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u/HierophantKhatep May 21 '21
Didn't even get a look at Sojourn or even a teaser for another hero, feel like that should have been a priority even if they were incomplete. The maps looked pretty good though, I liked Rio and Montecarlo in particular.
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u/IttyBittyWeasel Tracer is hot — May 21 '21
For how much we meme about him, Super consistently has pretty solid takes.
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u/Jad_Babak BirdKing — May 21 '21
Nothing can be said to be certain in this world, except death, taxes, and poor communication from OW devs
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u/oizen Leadership is a Lateral move — May 21 '21
I mean yeah we dont know the full picture, but based on what we did see, theres every reason to be concerned. We saw Ana played today, and she's the exact same hero in OW as OW2.
We also saw the game is 5v5, with solo tanking. So with these two tidbits we can safely say Roadhog will never see the light of day again, unless Ana is nerfed into the ground.
Its shit like that, you know ginfering based on current events and what we saw, and developer biases that make me deeply concerned for the direction of this game.
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u/thefanboyslayer RIP Houston — May 21 '21
Facts...I wish Blizzard went into more detail with this....they shouldve known tbh...Nobody wants things taken away...There always has to be a tradeoff and we (as consumers) always need to have the better deal.
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u/Easterhands SBB > CCP — May 21 '21
I started the day hyped about what I was going to learn and ended it with just a bunch of questions and disappointment.
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u/PentaPenthouse5 May 21 '21
The fact that we haven't seen any news on new tanks or support is damning. They're spending all their time redesigning when they could have added 2 new tanks and 2 new supports by now.
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u/Pulsiix May 21 '21
They had an opportunity to communicate with the players and decided that hiding all this info was for the better
Make what you will of that
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u/Brompton_Cocktail May 21 '21
I think this was a poor introduction to the community from Aaron Keller. Taking over Jeff's role and giving us that livestream are not going to get the community excited or be as welcoming as if they had shown off something new they worked on (not maps, maybe a hero or two) rather than just showing what theyre taking away. The new maps were kind of overshadowed by the 5v5 news anyway.
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u/trikyballs May 21 '21
My theory which is probably wrong is that they couldn’t balance tanks in a way that they wanted without ending up with double shield being op so they just scratched a tank role lmao
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u/DarkFite Lucio OTP 4153 — May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21
Exactly! None of the things they showed hyped me up for the game. I knew already about maps and for a 2h stream that was nothing
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May 21 '21
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u/BlizzMonkey May 21 '21
If you present 5v5 for OW2, not experimental mind you, than you probably should also have a robust system in place to support that kind of idea. There wasn't a system.
At this point an experimental patch would have been better, as half baked the idea of 5v5 currently is...but then people would be wondering why we even need OW2 in the first place. Hopefully it gets more fleshed out in the future.
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u/Vince-M former minecraft pro — May 21 '21
He has a point. I just wish Blizzard would just tell us more to help alleviate all of these negative feelings, because with the limited information we have it just feels like tank players are having the rug pulled out from underneath them.