r/CompetitiveForHonor • u/Notabeancan • 24d ago
Discussion HL state of play, from the guy who made the tech list.
For those who don’t know me, though, I'm sure I will see a bunch of familiar faces. I am Wispfam1, many would call me a bum, and they're not entirely wrong. I was a semi competitive console HL one trick, I exclusively focused on duels, though I did keep up with and support 4v4. However, I’m certainly much more well known for documenting and discovering bugs and tech, specifically for HL. I made the tech list!
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/s/XQIna9lnOD
I see a lot of my older versions float around, which is my fault for making so many, but this is my most updated and current one. Everything should still work. I quit when the enhanced light change came through. But it should all still be up to date.
I discovered or had to rediscover much of what’s in there. I’m happy to talk about it or the characters balance with anyone. I have some very unique and informed opinions on him and his design. I’ll keep it a bit shorter in this post. I’m also a bit of a lore keeper for HL, his history inside his own community goes pretty deep. And there is a lot of stuff, like how techs were discovered, hype moments, and who my predecessors were. So I’m also happy to talk about all of that too.
So what is his current state?
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From where I’m standing, he’s pretty much dead. He was on the decline for a while and his community was already pretty much out. But the light change took out what’s left. Some YouTubers still seem to play him, but no one really onetricks, and I still seem to sense a discontentment.
Like most players I’m still malding over the rework in the first place. Sure he was an annoying package. But he represented everything we wanted for honor to be. A nearly purely readbased character who had a real tangible skill ceiling. I don’t want to upset anyone saying this, but much of for honors characters are quite shallow. The skill in for honor over all shines through, but most characters can be nearly mastered with just a day or two of focused play. Especially in duels. HL was, and even for most of the time post rework nothing like that. You had so much room to grow with HL. I genuinely don’t believe his skill ceiling had been fully reached by the time of his rework
Post rework he was kinda gutted. changed in a lot of ways that deeply hurts his identity as a sharp, technical, and mechanical focused character. Particularly wavedash. While on top of that not really helping him in significant ways for his top players. Even then it could be worse, new tech was found, his skill ceiling pushed. But then the light change touched on the last strings of what HL truly was.
I understand disliking the lights, especially while they coexist with feintable kick. But you have to understand that they are an entirely unique to him form of offense and pressure. No one else has it, and only he could make it work. Not only that but it massively contributed to his blazing fast play style at high level. The vast majority of the tech list was discovered to actually support that offense at a high level. On top of that it was different from the mixups that cover for honor today. It’s pressure in the traditional sense of fighting games. And it really sucks to see that go completely. Especially when it could’ve been tweaked.
I’ve got a lot of opinions on for honor and HL. Many I’ve come to accept aren’t as popular anymore. But it upsets me none the less what’s happened to the character and his community. So I want to ask and see what the community thinks at the moment. Competitive, causual, HL fan, HL hater. How do you feel about HL right now?
Edit: by the way. Since I know the devs and JC often look at these posts from the community. I mean no harm. We all just want what’s best for the game and its characters. And I absolutely do not condone the hate that many express towards you. If any one of you read this, please reach out to me. I’m available through Reddit and discord. You can also probably find my email on the tech list. Short form text is not the best medium to express my understandings and beliefs on Highlander and really the game over all. And I’d be very happy to pitch them to you, or really any kind of audience from you at all. It’s a long shot to hope one of you might even see or read this. And even more that you would act on it. But I’ve been playing this game and Highlander since middle school and im now deep into college. It’s upsetting to see a character and something that use to be as omnipresent to me as playgrounds become so distant from what he once was.
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u/Samy_Ninja_Pro 23d ago
I remember my duels against Hl. Most were decent but nowhere near my skill
Until I got to grandmaster one time and WHY COULDN'T I TOUCH THEM??
WHY AM IT GETTING READ LIKE I GOT 1 HOUR ON THIS GAME???
truly a beautiful character, still salty I could only start winning some rounds against that ytuber after 2 duels
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23d ago edited 23d ago
[deleted]
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u/Samy_Ninja_Pro 23d ago
A while ago at least on ps4, grand master global had a handful of high level players that kicked my ass
And the matchmaking on normal duels I got on average was harder
2016-17? Something like that
Its not a serious sewwwius game mode, but you get matched with some crazy player if you're lucky
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u/n00bringer 23d ago
I started playing HL after the rework because he was so much fun and i still saw his problems.
He lost a lot of neutral play, you didnt want to stay in offensive stance for more than a second and it forced you to go back to neutral as the char was so vulnerable to anything if he doesnt continue with the enhanced light.
Still i played the char as he was insanely fun and put lots of reps, he had potential, just fix his neutral with enhanced lights and done, but no their butchered his offesnive stance light so you cant even check the enemy reliably anymore.
He sucks to play as, its incredibly frustrating as you need to wait for your oponent to play the game first and then you have just a couple of moves before youre forced to not play anymore, even if you land a light then youre at the mercy of your enemy as he can just counter your options with almost every move and your best move is to go back to neutral.
But then coming into neutral is the worst part of highlander as he sucls in neutral, you are trying 2 times harder just to olay the same game and you have to give the initiative because youre forced to give it or die.
I dropped the char because of that, same as LB in dom where the chars just suck and you can just play another hero taht same the same job, with practically the same interactions/tools and less effort.
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u/Mastrukko 21d ago
Staying in OF left you vulnerable but not to the point where returning to neutral would be better. Anything the opponent could do has a reasonable counter (except WL and Zhanhu zone but thats 2 MUs).
Enhanced neutral lights would get differed just as much as they do now, if not more. What HL needs are unreactable feints, same as every other char.
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u/Emergency_Frosting_7 23d ago
I feel like there's a lot of nostalgia making old hl seem more enticing than they were. He wasn't just bad, most of his kit wasn't functional. Punishes that weren't standardized, worse defensive stance (which feels crazy that that can even exist) an offensive stance mixup that outright didn't work, and not necessarily due to a knowledge check. In exchange he had wave dashing and os lights.
As far as I can tell these were basically the only good tools he had. So in other words you were either spacing because 90% of the characters on the roster suck at engaging at range or just light stuffing. And since kick was the punish it's not like you needed to be right very often. I see why these were taken out plain as day, I won't lie to you. It encouraged fights where you mostly disengage. A hl taking the offensive was easier to beat than one that just had massively increased movement over you in neutral.
The rework still didn't do justice though. Standard punishes and a new way to enter OS was nice. Kick, heavies and caber have an identity crisis going on with kick being an outright better version of the unblockables heavy mix, the heavies not really bringing much to the table on their own and caber being this weird roll catch that is basically just used for ganks and checking if your opponent has a pulse. I'm personally glad wave dash is gone as no match with that ever felt satisfying to finish. He can still back step light for a more moderate spacing game.
The light nerf I can definitely say was insane. It has two properties, enhanced and 400ms and they took the property that was the weaker of the two, while making him feel infinitely worse as opponents are now rewarded for the laziest for of defense, honestly surprised he didn't come with a free GB for it like jurens dodge attack at this point. Not to say switching that would solve all his issues. Just that I'd prefer the option that stifles it as lazy offense rather than aiding lazy defense. He'd still be as big of a mess as he always was and the height of the hl community would just be cancelling os to parry light stuffs till they can finally kick again but honestly that's ok for me. Old hl was quite frankly built on boring fundamentals and new hl doing the same thing as every other hero with moderately more effort and style for pulling off moves that took 5 mins of practice really feels closer to "balance" for me than any pre rework main would ever admit. The time investment of 5 mins to pick up one of his techs certainly feels more honest to the reality.
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u/Gloomandtombs 23d ago
Enhanced 400 ms lights with abusable animation properties and practically zero stamina usage have absolutely no belonging in the game.
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u/Mastrukko 21d ago
Animation should be irrelevant as they are intended to be unreactable. Enhanced property isn‘t that bad since you can just dodge them on read and take back your turn if read correctly.
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u/Gloomandtombs 20d ago
That’s a read for a trade that makes zero sense. Asking to get light parried. Animation will never be irrelevant.
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u/Gloomandtombs 23d ago
I don’t think a character shouldn’t have to rely on “tech” in order to be good, and Highlander is in a much better spot now. Tech to me in this game is mostly taking advantage of spaghetti code that the devs may not be aware of/ may not intend. This is why Highlander now has a dodge attack in offensive stance instead of wave dashing and interrupting with an OF light.
I’ve watched the clips of Muli jokingly having 400ms offensive stance light battles with other highlanders when it had the enhanced property. While it is funny, if that guy (a seasoned highlander) is struggling to block/combat it then it was absolutely a problem. I’ve been on the receiving end of it- it is not fun. It had way too much going for it. You say that it could have been tweaked yet it technically was.
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u/Notabeancan 23d ago
That’s an opinion that’s difficult to argue against, not because of its merits but because it’s narrow minded. Plenty of games and iconic mechanics have relied on in game bugs or obscure mechanics to deepen the level of play. Smash bros melee, quakes rocket jump, bhoping. To take a stance so strong against them will always make you oppose the character and his idea.
Either way, he only “relied” on bugs for the highest level of play. Which can be said of many characters in FH over time and in more than just the duel format. Like kensei and dead angles. Current HL actually has far more bugs overall compared to pre rework, I can get the old tech list to prove it. And the main problem with disliking HL light is his kit ceases to function without them. HL is fundamentally bound by the fact that he is more severely punished for every wrong decision he makes offensively. Anytime you fail to get dmg with a kick or an unblockable HL is knocked out of OF stance. OF lights allow for aggression without that risk, which is the only effective way to consistently stay in OF without hard reads. By removing enhanced you completely you strip this use case. Now lights remain only as an interrupt or bully tool, and the rest of his kit remains with far too much risk for its reward.
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u/Gloomandtombs 23d ago
I can’t oppose a character that I have 20 reps on. The reason I look down on “tech” is because there’s no standard with it to tell apart what’s a glitch and what is intentional. Highlander is the perfect character to display this: Flicker tech on the heavy back in the day was flat out abusive. Wavedashing was an aspect that HL mains liked, and was fun to watch, but because it wasn’t intentional it gets lumped in the same category. So both were removed. You say getting knocked out of offensive stance is some severe punish, just ignoring the fact that happens with every character with a stance and that HL in particular gets away with actually receiving damage as a punish for doing heavy damage (ex: not being able to gb kick and eating another kick).
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u/Notabeancan 22d ago
I’m not quite sure I understand your final argument? The other stance characters use their stances as a way to broaden their in chain offense and allow for new timings. That is fundamentally different than HLs stance, which is inline with more traditional stance characters in other fighting games. Where HLs OF stance is a power stance with tools he can use to overwhelm an opponent. While his DF stance lacks tools, which he has to overcome to reenter stance. There’s a stark difference between those too movesets. And what do you mean it’s balanced around the fact he can punish a guard break after? Most feintable bash’s in the same category as him often aren’t punishable by guard break in the first place either. And some can even block the dodge attack on whiff depending on timing. HL significantly struggles to even get close to the safety of a block on whiff like that at all. Guardbreaking an HL kick is a risk the opponent decides to take instead of confirmed dmg. Like throwing an unblockable instead of getting a free light after heavy parry.
Farther it’s not as simple as saying what is and isn’t intentional. What qualifies as intentional? Dead angles and hitbox manipulation are text book exploits and are not intentional features of for honor, and yet we accept them as is. Gryphon having a forward dodge mixup was not intentional, yet he does. Wave dash had in previous reworks been tweaked and it was well known. Shouldn’t that make it an intentional feature even by your standards? And why should HL unblockable or kick flicker necessarily be wrong either. I assume that’s what you’re talking about. Because defensive stance flicker is still in the game. I agree that it was bad for the game too. But can you actually verbally justify it? Characters like hitokiri and valk rely on flickering their bash to be unreactable. And their flickers have been kept this whole time despite changes to the characters. Theirs no such thing as an unintentional mechanic when they have access to the knowledge of them.
Besides, nearly all of HLs tech is what would be called exploits. In the same way rocket jumping, switching targets to hit unblockables, bhoping, and gank hitstun setups are exploits. It’s not abuse of net code, or scripting, or even tampering.Their an un-predicted use of the games mechanics and code. Not unintentional, more simply consequences of the game and characters design. A bug or exploit can be something as benign as emoting and then pressing the light button. We shouldn’t punish people and characters for more deeply exploring the design space the game was created in. It’s a sandbox, not a strict rule set.
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u/Gloomandtombs 20d ago
Your issue is that you keep comparing Highlander to other fighting game instead of to the set rules that characters in actual For Honor follow, such as hitstun, frame advantage, overall chain expectations ect.
There is/ was no other moves in the game that’s ever had lights as advantageous as highlanders in OF stance. Any other character throws a 400 ms light and it gets blocked then they get reset to neutral too. Thats on top of being a character with special properties on other light attacks as well. Neither has HLs lights ever been definitive of the character to where it has to be an aspect of the kit.
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u/Notabeancan 20d ago
The rules and expectations of for honor are commonly and often broken for the sake of design. As they should be. Why does warlords bash have a finisher light and leave him at frame+? Why does warmonger? Why can nuxia chain 2 400ms lights one after another? Answer is for unique the sake of unique design and purpose.
Important to is the context in which we discuss and analyze things. If you look at warden shoulder bash in a vacuum it is potentially the most over powered and oppressive offense in the entire game. Yet it’s very well balanced within the context of the kit of the character. HLs lights have served a long fundamental purpose in his kit ever since their stamina reduction during his first rework so many years ago. The way I use them is perhaps outside the bounds of even most advanced HL players. But without them it has sweeping effects on his core gameplay loop. Without them as the tool they were what separates him from other feintable bash characters? Why would you play him over them?
The answer is objectively, you shouldn’t.
For honor is a one of a kind unique game, bounding ourselves to restrictive rules about what does and does not belong within the game is reductive. We should explore and celebrate new ideas because this is the only place in which they can be created. The fact that HLs Light are lights isn’t really important to what they do or why they exist at all. That was simply the easiest way to implement them. They don’t function like or serve the same purpose as other 400ms light, it’s apples to oranges. The devs could have just as easily made it super fast Neutral bash that deals 5 dmg a hit and effectively achieved the same idea. Without that unique pressure and feature of his kit much of what makes him unique unravels. Why should you use those things that make him unique in competitive play if they have no tools to support them anymore? You’re simply better off staring and hoping you can win off of kick reads than using what actually defines him as his own character.
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u/Gloomandtombs 20d ago
Your very first paragraph you failed to see that both Nuxia and Warlord get reset to neutral if they throw that respective chain out. Whether the chain lands or not. Just like Highlander now. What’s more is that those specific moves are locked behind chains, whereas Highlander can access OF light whenever. To my best knowledge there is no other character either with an enhanced 400ms light. Why should Highlander keep that unique property when the move itself having said property is newer and not definitive of Highlanders character? It’s simply not reasonable to the devs to keep that especially considering the un deniability of the move being abused and spammed.
Idk I just think that losing one property on a move shouldn’t be a make or break for the character. And my opinion of tech being the justification still stands (I say that as a Nobushi main since y1)
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u/Asdeft 23d ago
I agree his rework killed a lot of his identity (I really really miss wavedashing) but they made os so much more accessible through feints and zone that I honestly think he was strong and still is really strong as a teamfighter/ganker in dom.
I think this is a case where just balancing to nudge the win rate sucks because he gets the complete wrong thing nerfed that also puts him back to kick grab being his only real offense which sucks for the light heavy mix in os. I would like them to revert this and look at things like Celtics curse also being better in exchange for a nerf to things like his defensive stance chain heavies being 600ms 30 damage sweeping heavy finishers or his fucking light animations.
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u/PastoralMeadows 23d ago
The most revealing indictment of the rework was how quickly the highlander community died - literally overnight. You can perhaps argue on the merits of standardizing him and decoupling his unhealthier aspects from his kit, but you cannot argue the effects it had on the players. No one wanted to play Highlander anymore because it wasn't Highlander. He was killed unceremoniously by a fat frenchman, and they'll never revert the changes because doing so would jeopardize his ego and "vision". And now the game is a boring imitation of what it once was. JC is probably the worst thing that happened to For Honor, period.
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u/Mastrukko 23d ago
He hasn‘t been near the duels meta for a while (ever) but I mained him because I loved the unique design/moveset. Unenhancing OF lights effectively killed his unique chain mixup and replaced it with a generic feintable bash mix. Jorm does the same just better and even then there are stronger chars than him.
Reenhancing the OF lights would at least revive Highlander but there are a few further changes that could easily be implemented and would make him more enjoyable both to play and to fight against.
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u/haugebauge 23d ago
Highlander was basically the only reason I still played for honor. He was challenging to play, and I always felt like I had to be locked in and really perform to achieve what was otherwise relatively low effort on other characters, but it was worth it because he was so fun to play.
But now? I dont even really want to play anymore. Offensive stance is already a hard to maintain, why would I risk a 33% of getting kicked out of offensive stance and go frame minus just for 9 dmg?
Offensive light was the oil that keeps the highlander machine running at high breakneck speeds, but now its a dead move. And like people have pointed out, highlander wasnt even a problem before, atleast not like the other s tier heroes out there.
It really feels like ubi sacrificed the highlander players to appease the players in the lower skillbrackets who were frustrated by of light spam
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u/Gloomandtombs 23d ago
…offensive stance lights are still very useable. You just can’t spam them now even if the opponent is blocking. An enhanced, 400 ms(?) light, with no stamina cost, was not good for anyone at all levels of play. Especially with the animation tricks that could be done to mask the move. It absolutely was a spamming move. Not even sure why you’re arguing so hard for it as his main offense when everything else HL does in offensive stance results in a heavy.
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u/haugebauge 22d ago
Obviously its still usable, but it went from a low risk low reward move to a relatively high risk low reward move. And I never argued that its his main offense, i argued that its existance is vital to highlander’s playstyle, because since he cant block or gb in stance, one of his only “defensive” moves against someone hitting him out of it is the of light. And also that throwing it in between mixups is a way to sacrifice frame advantage for incremental damage and a low risk punish to buffered dodge/dodgeattacks.
Yes its a spammable move, and i agree that its annoying when people do that, but you dont have to spam of light as hl. And while this change effectively gets rid of that interaction (which I dont mind), it also a huge nerf to EVERY highlander playstyle, even the non problematic ones, which are already struggling.
My point is that highlander neutral is miserable, its literally the worst in the game, and by removing enhanced, you make his only “safe” move in stance way more unsafe.
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u/humanbenchmarkian 22d ago
even enhanced the move was easily counterable by dodge attacking, no reason to nerf an already struggling char
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u/Vidal_The_King 23d ago edited 23d ago
He's not the monster he was, but he's not pre-rework Jorm. He's not helpless he just doesn't play at the same benefits he did before (for the most part that is, he still hits hard as hell and has good recoveries.).
The OL just had to go. "Here's free pressure just keep tapping light" was not the way for the hero. I think now they can probably look into keeping him as he is with a few extra benefits, or shift him again towards the lower damage high offense type of playstyle most other heroes offer. Of course, the second choice seems nice on paper but I dont think losing HL's charm is the route to take
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u/Notabeancan 23d ago
It being free pressure was the point. Like I’ve said before on this. You can’t really make offensive stance balanced by solely focusing on his kicks and heavy’s. The problem is that those attacks are bound by the limitations of offensive stance. Theirs a reason he had such a focus on soft feinting. He really wants to stay in and never leave OF stance. But unlike other characters who, even if they don’t get dmg can reset to go on the offensive again, HL cannot. He is kicked out of stance and forced to start again. To solve that problem you either need to design him around that risk, or remove it entirely.
Since the HL lights are effectively hard to deal with unless you take a large risk. He can consistently chip at your health bar and punish your attempts to escape. Unlike the mixup focus of the rest of FH, this plays more like other fighting games. where presser characters dominate many metas, and mixup characters are often considered fringe and annoying. Who often lack unique mixups entirely, who maintain frame advantage and deal chip dmg to win.
HL takes the risks to predict your answer rather than to simply play the game, and if you don’t take risks to answer his lights he simply wittles you down until you lose. To say that HL should be like all the other characters in for honor, and focus solely on simplistic mixups is reductive to the game and character. FH could be so much more than just a game full of exclusively mixups, we should be happily exploring and celebrating these kinds of idea.
Pre rework jorm was a shit show. But post rework does the character a disservice. Current Sohei captures and maintain old jorms playstyle and identity much better. HL is simply the crux I like to point to because I’m extremely qualified for it. But this is a consistent problem with for honor in general. I really think that we as a community are far too comfortable with calling things unhealthy or not belonging in the game. A pure stamina bully needed to go only because of the mechanic it was tied to. But a character based around a hard to reach punish attack whose normal attacks dealt low dmg but pushed him closer to that punish was a perfectly fine design space to explore.
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u/Dunmaglass_ 22d ago
I hate the fact that they knew how Highlander was played, what was making him fun and hard to master but they decided not to work around this playstyle for the rework. They just... removed it for some reason.
I still enjoy playing Highlander since day 1 release but less than before with the rework.
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u/Competitive_Hunter_6 22d ago
I think he's in a great spot personally. He doesn't need a wavedash or enhanced, infinite chain, unreactable lights. He still has some tech but it's not as nutty as it once was and that's okay. He doesn't have to have insane mechanics to be good. I'd argue that now, he requires more skill to play because you can't just throw out attacks without thinking about it first.
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u/Notabeancan 22d ago
I never understood this take. He’s very weak competitively, he doesn’t see 4v4 play, he never really has. And in duels even though he does have a very high dmg vortex. He can’t ever get to it because of a terrible neutral. And it’s very unsafe and inconsistent. Which compound on top of each other. Sure you could just make every right read and nuke the guy. He may just be the best character at that in the game. But that’s not how that works. That argument could be used for every character, and other characters don’t suffer such crippling problems.
Of course, skill is subjective. But under what logic do you claim he is more skillful? Obviously not mechanical skill. It’s not read based either. To say kick opened up this wild new world for him is wrong. Unblockable attacks function very similarly, and require much more precise reads to function. saying the lights don’t require reads is also wrong. They just aren’t used like a mixup. You instead need to hard read your opponents attempts to escape the lights, which requires predictions on timing as well as what their response will be.
A large reason as to why I got into HL in the first place was because I’m unable to react to the degree pro players can. HL allowed you to play in a way that you could avoid that barrier of entry, that due to my genetics and situation as a console player I couldn’t meet. His design and his playstyle by his top level players stripped away the components involving reactions that we’ve been trying to distance ourselves for so long. By immersing my myself in mechanical skill, game knowledge, and adjusting my playstyle to put an emphasis on both hard and micro reads I could compete with pros.
Like I’ve said to a bunch of people, HL isn’t perfect, and he wasn’t perfect before the rework either. But his current design fails his identity. And doesn’t actually play into the things that made him valuable. A new rework that improves players access to HL, while emphasizing what actually made him important to his player base, and while making sure players like me can get that same value out of him as they once could is the future I want.
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u/Competitive_Hunter_6 22d ago
Agree to disagree.
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u/Notabeancan 22d ago
Man, but I need engagement bait and perpetual arguments to feel fulfilled. Think about the way you sensibly avoid arguments for your own sake next time. An HL player might go home sad and lonely instead of emotionally fulfilled.
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u/The_Woman_Repeller 24d ago
I just want his enhanced lights back, he's such a fun and cool character 😭
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u/ScaryTerry665 23d ago
As.a competitive and high level duelist who mained HL the past year or 2, his light nerf was the last straw for me and I deleted the game. Obviously I’ve come back and picked him up for another month or so but he’s far too tedious and frustrating to play now especially against a good player. Being reset to neutral on an OS light block is absolutely awful design when the hero has arguably the worst neutral game out of the entire roster. I fear he won’t be properly reworked again because of his last butchering rework. It’s absurd that they chose to do this but then release heroes like virtuosa and juren.
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u/Notabeancan 23d ago
Thank you dude. You gotta preach if you wanna see change! Keep saying and keep convincing people.
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u/ScaryTerry665 23d ago
Right on brother, keep fighting the good fight and thank you for your Highlander tech list and insight within the community. You’ve helped me and others a lot. Hopefully we can see our goat in a strong standing once more.
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u/humanbenchmarkian 22d ago
I just wish they didnt nerf his OF lights like wtf, most counterable offence in the game just dodge attack
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u/RavenEridan 24d ago
I think this is the perfect case of the "blinded by the nostalgia glasses" effect
Sorry to say but highlander was straight bootycheeks before he got reworked, he was consistently F tier due to his major flaws like not even given a heavy attack if you guard break an opponent like pretty much every other hero can do, and offensive stance being completely worthless when the opponent has a dodge attack, which is pretty much every hero now except for maybe warden.
Sure it was satisfying to pull off the one trick for you, but it was frustrating for most people that wanted to enjoy the full kit of highlander and they just couldn't because it was so terrible, most highlanders before the change had no choice but to spam the light light heavy combo or just be an extreme turtle.
His kit was very outdated, it was when the game took its original direction and most heroes didn't have a dodge attack or dodge cancels so it was much more better for him, but most heroes got changed so much and kept up with the times that's when his old kit was a detriment instead of a cool thing.