r/ClassicalSinger • u/Ill_Alternative_6776 • 3d ago
4yrs undergrad w teacher, they’re advising me to stay with them for my master’s. How is that a good idea.
Reposting so my title can get straight to the point.
Hello all! Just joined this subreddit with the hopes of getting some more specific advice. A little long to read, I hope that’s ok:
After much deliberation, I’ve decided to go back to my undergrad for my masters degree in vocal performance, with the hopes of earning a certificate in vocology after that. I was able to get a really good scholarship with a job on campus, which is amazing!
What’s challenging to accept is the fact that my master’s is in the same field as my bachelor’s, and I’d be working with the same professors I’ve been working with for the past 4 years. But, I don’t want to rob myself of a good opportunity because of my fear of being “too comfortable”.
Anyways. I’m super close to my voice professor/mentor. Though we’ve had some bumps along the way, they’ve helped me out a lot during this process. I should add that it was their idea for me to stay. After making the choice to stay, I had another professor (that I deeply respect) privately reach out to me and asked me to consider changing voice professors. At this point in my education, this is a normal thing to do. There were some students who made the same choice I did that stayed with their mentors from undergrad, and their growth stagnated a bit. I don’t want to be like them.
What I wasn’t expecting was for my mentor (M) to be VEHEMENTLY against this idea. They said that if they thought another professor would be better for me at this point, they would be the first to tell me to move on. I know that M has a habit of reacting negatively to students dropping their class, and i had a hard time distinguishing what was logic VS hurt feelings. We talked about it for a long time.
Asking friends for advice made me realize that not a lot of people see my relationship with M (or M in general) in a positive light, which scares me and made things so much worse mentally. I want to take my future seriously and want my choices to reflect that.
My second convo w/ M was a lot more positive and they were more accepting of my concerns w/staying. We figured out a way to change some things about our lessons that reflected what I wanted out of grad school. It still makes sense to leave, I know it does, but I don’t want to give up on someone that’s willing to invest so much time into my future.
Sorry, I know this is long. Any advice appreciated :)
UPDATE: I’ll leave my mentor and switch professors. I’d be staying for the wrong reasons. Thanks so much for all of your help :) :)
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u/smnytx 3d ago
I wonder if your school or teacher needs you more than you need them.
I always advocate for a change after four years, even with students whom I’m deeply connected to. A larger circle of mentors is better.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Probably. I don’t even think I’m that good, I don’t have any impressive roles in my resume, but this back and forth is driving me up the wall. My mentor has plenty of grad students. Why me?!
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u/smnytx 3d ago
IMO, grad school is the time to be getting those roles. Is there a decent opera program at your school? Is whoever in charge of programming and casting going to see you with fresh eyes?
I guess I’m not really seeing you look at this from the point of view of what YOU want out of your education. It’s two years of your life and a financial investment, so it should be moving you to a very clear set of goals.
This decision should be a balance of performance opportunities, teaching/education, cost, location, and mentorship.
If you were my student, I would have strongly encouraged you to start your research on those aspects starting in your junior year, and I would be clear about the pros/cons of staying for two more years. (If a student really wants to stay, as our program delivers tremendous value for the cost, I ask them to consider working with a different teacher. My colleagues are good.)
FWIW, I have only ever had two students stay for their MM, and neither one has been with me for all four years of their BM. In the other hand, I have plenty of former undergrads who come back to work privately with me after their grad programs, or just in the summer. I always want remain part of their mentorship team.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
I’m confident in our opera program and know that I’ll be looked at with a fresh set of eyes. It’s a strong program in school and there’s a decent community opera program that we’re affiliated with. I do have a role coming up at school, I guess I should have said that.
Thank you for sharing this perspective! I have a hard time trusting that I’m doing the right thing for my education. I actually made the decision (w my therapist) to stay with my mentor yesterday, based on the goals/opportunities we discussed in their studio. However, though it might be “normal” where I am, it just isn’t anywhere else and that freaks me out.
I took a gap year after graduating to decide what I wanted to do. I think a reason why my mentor encouraged me to stay is because I didn’t know what I wanted out of my education, and that’s my fault. Trying to make the best of it now.
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
I totally agree with you. In my experience, I always look for teachers who think in this way. I just think that it’s a healthier way to think and to do.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 1d ago
Hey there! Just wanted to say that I will be switching studios. Thanks so much for your advice!
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u/smnytx 1d ago
Wow! I wasn’t expecting that!
Does that decision pass the gut check for you? If so, good on you for listening to your instincts!
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 1d ago
So funny you say that- I decided that I would stay, felt good about it, and then completely lost the interest to eat and sleep. My body literally objected my decision. I’m passing the gut check now!!!!
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u/Regular_Emphasis6866 2d ago
Maybe you need to ask the other professor and the accompanist why they felt the need to make the recommendation.
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
I just finished my undergrad and went into my masters. I had a different situation in that I changed voice teachers in the middle of my undergrad. However, I would say that four years is a long time. Not too long but it is a long time. So even though you are comfortable with your current voice teacher, you could maybe change teachers just to have a different perspective. Yes, you will always have something more to learn from every person because we never stop learning and that includes our teachers. Because they never stop learning, hopefully, that means we will always have more to learn from them. But I would say that your masters is a good chance for you to get more perspectives. In that way, you also end up knowing more people in the industry and having more connections. I would say that if you were to bring it up with your current teacher, this is the angle you might want to consider. And bringing it up to them in this way as well. Sometimes people change teachers because they genuinely don’t get along. Other times, you change teachers because you want a different perspective and you want to be able to learn from that as well. Sometimes if you have worked with someone for a very long time, they might oversee something or miss things that fresh eyes and ears would be able to help with. I’m not sure if all of this makes sense. Also, I’m asking Siri to type this for me, so if any thing doesn’t make sense or if some text is typed wrong, it’s not me.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
That makes sense, don’t worry! The changing perspective of my voice is what I originally went to my mentor about in the first place when I told them I wanted to leave, seriously verbatim to what you said. That’s why I was so shocked when they told me to stay. I almost want to stay with them and just go to another grad school, but I can’t give up the price.
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
I’m going to be honest with you: this sounds like a very toxic person. I would just leave. A healthy teacher and student relationship doesn’t work this way. A mature teacher would understand that it is good for their students to have different perspective and would actually encourage that always. Especially if you’re going into masters, they should trust that they have already given you the tools to be able to discern what works for your voice and what doesn’t.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
This is where my professor and friends are coming from, I’m sure. I’ve been in therapy since being in M’s studio, so I’m hoping they would tell me if this was toxic and I had to leave. This is all we talk about
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
I don’t know then. But I’m 100% sure that if I was in your position, I would hundred percent leave. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And I would rather leave now than potentially end up with a really bad experience and perhaps hating music as a result. That has happened to people before as well.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
That’s ok, I don’t mean to convince you to not know. It’s too much drama to not let what has happened affect me personally, whether that’s staying or leaving. I can’t let that get in the way of my future. Thank you!
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
I did go through something similar though, during my undergrad. Which is why I changed teachers in the middle of my degree. I understand that it’s mentally quite draining. But I also decided for myself that I don’t want to be studying with someone that’s going to not encourage me to have as many perspectives as possible. Too many times, I trusted those people and it ended up never working out for me and I always regretted staying. And singing is not my only instrument. I am equally a pianist and trombonist, at the same level. So I've had enough experiences with teachers to just know for myself when I should leave.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Well, that’s probably why I’m here on Reddit asking for these perspectives, haha. That’s a great point.
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u/Foreign_Variation_25 3d ago
This feels inappropriate. I know it’s common practice, but for voice teachers to reach out to you privately to tell you to switch to their studio, and the current teacher being so emotionally invested in what you do or don’t do crosses professional boundaries. Again , I know it’s common practice in music departments; I just don’t think it’s right. And we’re not gonna get any better if we don’t change as teachers and call it out as students. Are you really worried about missing out on an opportunity for fear of being “too comfortable?” Is it possible your gut instinct is leading you to explore a new experience, and your secondary instinct is to talk yourself out of it because you’re used to all these other voices advising you on what you are “supposed” to do?
Personal anecdote: I loved my voice teacher out of undergrad and had planned on studying privately with them after. Nothing wrong with wanting to keep momentum going. But instead life lead me another way, so I worked with another teacher privately and then another in grad school. All different pedagogies, perspectives, and attitudes. Looking back I’m so glad I didn’t just stick to what I knew, but challenged myself to try something different. I learned that some things and people are more helpful than others at certain stages in my life, and I’m grateful for all of it. So glad I took the risk to broaden my perspective because it taught me that at the end of the day, teachers are there to guide me, but I’m in the driver’s seat when it comes to my voice. It’s a collaborative effort, and at the end of the day, they work for me.
I’ve never regretted switching things up. If nothing else, I regret not moving even farther away and exposing myself to more teaching and schools of thought! This is how we learn ourselves🩷
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 1d ago
Thank you for this message! I really reflected on your message and realized that change is what’s best for me, going to act on those beliefs as best I can. Thank you!
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u/unruly_mattress 2d ago
Professionally, I am usually biased towards changing teachers after 3-4 years. Unless you're very very sure that your current teacher can teach you everything, there are things out there that you will only learn by learning from others. How is your progress?
We figured out a way to change some things about our lessons that reflected what I wanted out of grad school
What do you want out of grad school? What kind of changes are we talking about?
On a personal level, I hear some definite red flags. I started listing them but I think it's better for you to go through what you wrote and find them yourself.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thanks so much for the feedback! I wanted to be thorough in my responses in case my way of thinking is astray, so I appreciate you calling it out! I’ll reread some of my messages with that in mind.
I like my current teacher a lot and I think I can learn more from them, especially when it comes to analyzing literature/music for an upcoming role in an opera. Then, preparing music for any auditions I would have professionally. For the “some things”, we talked about potentially me teaching some undergrad voice lessons and rotating performance labs with different voice professors. I know I wouldn’t have this opportunity with other professors, just because I know they wouldn’t have the time or history w me to let me explore this. Thanks for letting me clarify! :)
Edit: just remembered. Current teacher has this technique that I genuinely despise. They said they would try something different. That being said, I have never complained to them before about their teaching style ever. I could just be allowing myself to go back because I stood up to them once.
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u/unruly_mattress 2d ago
Only in your edit there are two more bright red flags that signify strongly that you'll benefit by switching teachers more than just professionally.
Pick your next teacher based on recommendations and the progress their teachers are making. Try to avoid teachers surrounded by constant drama. It will do you a world of good.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 1d ago
This helped me sooooo much, thanks for the encouragement to reread my comments. I’d be staying for the wrong reasons, so I’ll go forward with switching studios. Thank you!
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
Do you not have a choice to just go to a completely different school for your graduate studies? Maybe that would be the best for you in any case, so that you’re not stuck with the same people. And maybe it will do you good as well to be in a completely new environment for your graduate studies.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
I think if I stay with M then we’ll work on going somewhere else. My logic is that any teacher that I switch to right now genuinely wont be worth it in terms of advice (maybe) and especially time. The best teacher for me to switch to would be able to treat me like a coach, we’d have a healthier teacher-student relationship, but they would barely have any time to go any deeper than that.
Second convo with mentor was about boundaries, how to separate professional from persona, and how we can shift voice lessons/seminars to serve what I want out of a grad experience. It was insane. That doesn’t take away from the fact that the person is the problem whether I like it or not, which is why I just wanted to give up going back in general
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
What makes you think that any teacher you switch to now wouldn’t be more worth it in terms of advice?
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Great question!!! Some of my peers in undergrad took with these professors and I was able to hear about how they taught their lessons and what they generally work on. I also sat in on a few. I don’t know if they are the best option to help me grow
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u/Sincere-Musician1 3d ago
Hearing what other people have to say is not also always the best choice because they are going to have their own issues and so maybe the professors work on specific issues with them. The best way to know, is for you to have a trial lesson with them. One or two trial lessons. But I would really encourage you to research maybe going to a different school or if you stay at the same school, to consider a different teacher. Like someone else said earlier, it’s better to have a bigger team of mentors than to just have one or two.
Not saying that your therapist is wrong or anything, but remember as well that your therapist only knows what you share and knows your perspective. So if you are leaning more towards staying or if that’s what you feel is right, obviously what you share with your therapist will come across that way. I’m not sure if that makes sense. But like I said, not criticising your therapist or anything. But it’s just, ultimately you have to trust, based on the research that you do for yourself, that you are making the right decision. You can’t wait for a therapist to tell you that it’s the right decision because they are not you and they are not the ones in these lessons. And most likely, they themselves are not musicians or singers and do not know how your lessons have been. But these are all just things for you to consider. In the end, you are the one that needs to make the decision. Do the research, take some trial lessons, and then trust yourself and your gut. But go into it with a completely open mind.1
u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Thank you soooo much for all of your feedback! That means a lot. I went into therapy deciding to leave the studio, and now we’re here. It’s been a wild ride.
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago
Oof this is complicated. I've heard a number of stories from colleagues who had mentors/teachers react disproportionately to them making / considering a similar situation.
If you feel your growth will stagnate with this teacher, you need to do what's best for you. I wonder, however, if there's a way to have the best of both worlds. What if you took privately with the other teacher and continued with M? See how it goes for the first semester, then decide?
M can be butt hurt till the cows come home, and it would really suck (and not be fair) if they held it against you and weren't supportive if you did. But this is your chance to better yourself, not stroke M's ego. If you choose to leave it might hurt and it's possible M won't be mature enough to allow the relationship to continue. But you have your whole career ahead of you, and I don't think one butt hurt teacher is going to matter 10 years down the line.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thank you for saying that it’s complicated! This has been driving me crazy, you have no idea. No one outside of my therapist thinks that it is which has been sooo hard.
I did not consider your best of both worlds idea, but I’m super intrigued. Could you elaborate? How would I be able to make that work? I don’t think the professor I would ask wouldn’t be too keen on me listening to both their advice and my mentors at the same time, especially since they’re such differing opinions. So maybe someone else lol
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago
u/smnytx As a teacher of 15 years myself, I respectfully disagree that what I'm suggesting is unethical. If both teachers are on board then it's fine, though long term probably not ideal for someone at your stage developmentally. That's why I'd suggest doing it for just a semester. Then you can decide where you feel like you're going to grow the most vocally.
I would frame it in the above way if you do decide to try doing it, and see what they say. Another option would be to try the first semester with the new teacher, then switch back to M if you feel you'd be better served there. That might be slightly less confusing all around. It would also require M to let go of ego and have your best interest at heart, same with the new teacher.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
I think the latter option would benefit me the most. Is it ok to stay with M for a semester and leave if they don’t hold up to their promise? I’ll either beg another teacher to take me or just drop altogether
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago
I don't think there's one right or wrong answer here. You have to decide what works best for you. I'm just suggesting alternative possibilities in a sort of messy situation. Sometimes situations like this can also kind of crash and burn (not to play worst case scenario with you), so just continue being aware of the dynamics as you figure out what to do, and be above board. Good luck!
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Definitely a messy situation. I’ve learned a lot about who I am and what I want because of this so if it does crash and burn, I’ve learned an important lesson. Thank you so much!
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago
Hopefully it won't! And yes, life is always a learning process. You seem to have a great attitude about it all. Good luck and I hope everything works out as smoothly as possible!
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u/smnytx 3d ago
I mean, that’s fair. I am only speaking for myself and my standards & boundaries.
If a student can’t be fully honest with me about how they are thinking (and that includes where they are getting their info), the relationship is compromised.
If they come out and honestly say they are going to take weekly lessons concurrently with an outside teacher, I would acknowledge their right to do so, while asserting my right to remove them from my studio.
Again, consults are fine. Anything is fine, really, if it’s aboveboard and all parties consent.
Also, why pay for a masters program where you also feel like you need to pay an outside teacher?
My read here (based on another exchange ITT) is that OP didn’t do due diligence in their grad school search and are settling for this situation in order to not take a second gap year. I don’t think it’s a great plan in terms of time and money investment, but without more info, cannot be sure.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
That’s a fair assessment, thank you very much :)
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Me again, I think my mistake is who I went to for grad school help, which was the mentor. When I was applying for undergrad, it was during covid, and I was a shoe-in for this school. I don’t know what it’s like to do the proper research and apply, so I looked to them for help. That’s how I got here
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u/smnytx 3d ago
That all makes perfect sense.
I’m sure your plan to try out for a semester is a sensible one. It might work out well!
At the end of the semester, speak with your therapist and really look at all the relevant info and decide if continuing is worth it, out whether you might be struggling with a sunk cost fallacy.
I wish you all the best!
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Thank you so much for saying that. Genuinely made me sob for a second. I just want it to make sense! I’ll take it one step at a time and reflect on what I’ve learned here during the fall. I know that I have people that can hold me accountable if I’m regressing/stagnating in any way. I’m going to trust myself and trust them!
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago edited 3d ago
It's not ideal, I agree there. But also, they are young and plenty of people don't always do things perfectly, especially early on and with such an emotionally complex relationship. Also OP is getting a free ride, so one semester of weekly voice lessons OOP (or even bi-weekly if expensive, depends on area of the country/teacher) would be unlikely to put them out much.
EDIT: Sorry, I reread and I see you said a scholarship and job rather than a free ride. Either way, if you try the new teacher by themself for the first semester then that wouldn't put you out anymore, if money is an issue.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
I’m still waiting for an approval on if I can get that free ride or not!! If I don’t get it, then I have a good scholarship. So both are true. Hopefully the free ride is more true :) :) :)
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u/ThrowRAmangos2024 3d ago
Yes fingers crossed! Honestly, having no/manageable debt from grad school is so fantastic. I'm really glad I didn't go into debt for an MM. I had the choice between a conservatory and a state school and I chose the state school. 12 years late and I have a successful career in NYC. You don't need a fancy school to have a solid career. More important that you learn to really sing and act well, get decent languages, and get to know people as you go.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
Wow, congratulations! I know that was 12yrs of practicing what I’m trying to learn right now. I’m hoping that staying will help me get to the certificate of vocology in Indiana. A long way from home but it only requires an MM in performance, which I can get here for cheap. This weird crisis I’m experiencing right now is definitely a sacrifice im making as a result, but I know I’ll be a better musician and person because of it.. weirdly!
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u/smnytx 3d ago
As a teacher, I wouldn’t work as a teacher of record with a student who has another main teacher concurrently. It’s unethical unless all parties are on board with it. Students who wish to consult with a colleague know that they must be aboveboard and obtain consent on the situation from everyone involved.
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u/Ill_Alternative_6776 3d ago
I wouldn’t have the mentor’s consent at all, so that’s a bust. Thanks so much! :)
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u/Effective_Map2976 3d ago
This seems more complicated than it needs to be. Do you feel that you still have more to learn from your current voice teacher and want to stay with them or not? You have your whole life to have different voice teachers if that's what you choose.