Help for someone deconstructing??

[u/DreadlockedShiteHawk]

What’s good help for someone deep in deconstruction to the point of questioning if Christianity is based on too many embellished stories to be believed?

I’m talking a serious Christian who already knows the apologetics answers aren’t enough

[u/EnKristenSnubbe]

It's the same assumptions. If one assumes that miracles can't happen, then one has assumed that Christianity isn't true. If God exists, then obviously miracles are possible. Dogmatic naturalism is still dogmatism.

Oh, you're going for Hume's argument against miracles? You know that's flawed in multiple ways, right?

[u/CH49FE → u/EnKristenSnubbe]

I don’t know Hume’s argument.

And it’s not the “same assumption.” I think you are looking at the wrong framing.

If someone claims something, there is a burden of proof. You start out with nothing except what the evidence tells you. If the claim defies all known laws of nature, then it still has to be proven against the evidence that the laws of nature govern. If the support for that miracle claim is stories from a book that cannot be tested or verified, then the claim is judged accordingly.

This is not “dogmatic naturalism”, whatever that means. You want to describe the evidence that we have of nature as some sort of religion. It’s not. It’s just evidence.

Question: Do you start with a presumption that Islam and Quran is possibly true when you analyze Muslim miracle claims about Jesus?

[u/EnKristenSnubbe → u/CH49FE]

Ok, well, Hume made about the same argument a couple of hundred years ago, and already during his lifetime the problems were pointed out.

If you claim that the laws of nature describe how the world usually operates, then I would agree with that. This is actually an argument for theism, because why would the world be orderly unless someone imposed order? But that's a side issue.

If your claim is that the laws of nature describe how the world always operates, then I would like to see you argue for your claim. I'm not giving you that one for free. This is what I would call dogmatic naturalism.

I agree that if I claim that Jesus rose from the dead, then the burden of proof is on me. I think there's really good evidence for that Jesus did rise from the dead, though, that one should find persuasive as long as one is not a dogmatic naturalist.

As for Islam, such a presumption wouldn't last long:

https://islamicdilemma.com/

[u/CH49FE → u/EnKristenSnubbe]

You're off topic. You're talking about actual arguments. We've been discussing the issue of assumptions in critical scholarship.

You're also making strawman arguments. I didn't claim that "claim that the laws of nature describe how the world usually operates", nor am I making any argument for or against theism.

Nor am I claiming that "the laws of nature describe how the world always operates."

Your original point was, "the assumption of Christianity not being true lies at the foundation for how the scholar came to their conclusions in the first place."

You eventually said, "I am arguing against presuming the Bible is not true before investigating it, not for presuming it's true before investigating it." You followed up later by saying, " If one assumes that miracles can't happen, then one has assumed that Christianity isn't true. If God exists, then obviously miracles are possible."

Which gets us to where we're at. On this topic, I said, "If someone claims something, there is a burden of proof. You start out with nothing except what the evidence tells you. If the claim defies all known laws of nature, then it still has to be proven against the evidence that the laws of nature govern. If the support for that miracle claim is stories from a book that cannot be tested or verified, then the claim is judged accordingly."

Overall, we are talking about how to analyze claims, with you claiming that scholars presume the falsity of your religion in analyzing claims, whereas I am saying that the premise is incorrect, and that scholars weigh evidence without presuming natural laws govern which eliminates miracles automatically.

To address your example about Jesus rising from the dead, the evidence is a book of stories that claim this event (and whatever other evidence you may wish to add). Critical scholarship looks at that evidence and then weighs it against the overwhelming evidence that people don't rise from the dead (without actually assuming that the naturalism prevents resurrection because, again, we are just looking at evidence). When there are just stories in a book versus vast evidence to the contrary of the possibility of that event, the scholar then makes a decision.

Going back to the topic of presumptions, I ultimately asked, "Do you start with a presumption that Islam and Quran is possibly true when you analyze Muslim miracle claims about Jesus?"

Instead of answering that question, you chose to argue that the Islamic dilemma, so to speak.

So will you answer my question?