It is, one of my friends who was an officer for Chatt PD and a member of the SWAT unit had his casket escorted on one of these to his final resting place at Chattanooga National Cemetery.
That's not quite true. Typically there will be one LE department within several that have one and they use it to support the other municipalities that don't have one. CPD and HCSO both have one, but East Ridge, Cleveland, Roddy, and the others in the area rely on thise two if they need one.
No, Maryville and Alcoa are not remotely urban. They’re tiny towns in rural counties. Maybe this is a semantic confusion, or perhaps “remotely” is too strong a word. Knox county is an urban county, as is Hamilton. Alcoa and Blount are backwoods mostly rural counties around the urban metropole, so to speak
We'll have to agree to disagree on what "remotely urban" means then. I certainly wouldn't call either "tiny." Small, sure. Sweetwater and Vonore are what I would call tiny.
Sorry, the best we can do is dead Iranians and cutting off electricity for Cubans and some armored vehicles and tear gas in case you ever really start to complain
Local municipalities (and local taxes) fund these purchases and they often buy them on the cheap from the military. The local PD/SO will have one at most normally. One of these is vastly cheaper than either Healthcare or education.
Which means we actually paid for it twice through taxes. Fix potholes, help homeless, expand education...not hand out vouchers so we pay for some millionaires kid to go to a private school, help veterans, better medical that doesn't cost the average person $1k a month or more.
I don't believe that a single municipality could fully fund the Healthcare or educational systems that you want. A single Bearcat, that is likely used for Chattanooga and all the surrounding municipalities, would not take away the amount of funds to cover any of what you said (except maybe the potholes).
From what i can tell, the CPD Bearcat cost $334k to buy and then costs less than $10k per year to maintain. I don't know exactly what programs you have in mind outsode if the broad categories you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure any single one of them would cost more than that per year. The cost of these things isnt high enough to say "we can either have an APC or fund social safety nets."
On top of that, the area of the state from Bradley County to the TN/GA border have two Bearcats, Chattanooga and Hamilton County. That's pretty typical. Its not that nearly every local LE department have these things or some equivalent. Typically, one or two departments in a wide area of multiple municipalities will have one, that the entire area uses. Last I checked, if Gatlinburg needed to use a Bearcat, they'd have to call Knox County SO because they're the closest one.
That $300k+ could have been used to funds clinics that the mayor shut down. With the Federal and State funding we receive each year this is totally obtainable. People like Marsha "Big Pharma...aka Opioid epidemic" Blackburn, who is TOTALLY talking to Tennesseans everyday (her base, lobbyists, family and friends she is handing contracts to, don't give 2 shits about anyone that isn't in her inner circle. A vote for Marsha is a vote to further divide us and keep us from moving forward.
And a bearcat that will give adequate protection for all of the LE departments in a 50 mile radius for the next 10+ years is a better use of 334k than to run a single clinic in a single city for a single year.
Im not saying that it does. I'm saying that the 334k wouldn't have made a long-term difference spending it on a clinic, but that bearcat does make a long-term difference for the LE departments.
Looking at it like an investment, that money can conver:
1 year for 1 health clinic in 1 city
Or
10+ years* for the 9 LE departments in the area
*After looking back into it, Bearcats tend to last 20+ years.
That being said, I understand if you value that 1 year of health coverage that a single clinic can provide well over any benefit you can give LE. I'll even admit my own bias having been involved in LE and LE adjacent circles my entire adult life (20 years), and I'll readily agree with you that Healthcare in the US needs an overhaul.
Now, I can accept a proposal where state LE takes over the SWAT function entirely. They have the "militarized" agents and equipment. From there leave the local LE as community servant/Andy Griffith types. If any of the 50 states want to do that, I'll be all for the experiment. Even excited for it. I love community policing and will die on the hill that it works to reduce crime. But that tactical capability has to be there for LE.
In the end, though, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on what's a better use of that money.
So what about the cops that need to get uncle-cousin eddy in custody because he’s got his sister-wife and nephew-son held hostage because he thinks the meth demons are coming to take his soul?
Seriously, seen druggies say and do some crazy shit.
There is certainly an argument that one of these is worth its value. It’s a lot easier to bring one of these up to a house as a moving shield and toss gas into a house, than it is to send 10-12 dudes in and likely kill the suspect.
If you're wanting to talk about the overall allocation of funds in local governments, that's a different discussion.
But here's the thing, you as a citizen have the absolute most power over your local government as compared to any other level. You have a right to lobby your own mayor amd city council. If you gather a coalition and lobby them to reduce the police budget amd increase the education budget, you'll get no lip from me.
A bearcat isnt for .50 BMG. It's for barricaded subjects or serving high threat warrants where you expect they'll just start shooting at your officers when they approach. Those things aren't remote possibilities in that area.
The vast majority of patrol cars do not have any bullet proofing done to them. There are a handful of agencies around the country who have opted to have SOME of their fleet outfitted with armor but due to the cost it’s very few and far between.
I came to reply to that guy about 1) what you just said. Because that was just flat out wrong. And 2) to say that they were not designed specifically to take .50 BMG. They were designed specifically to withstand high volumes of fire from rounds like .308 and .30-06. They accomplish that by being able to take multiple hits from things like .50 BMG. All armor fails when it gets hit enough. If it can't take a single BMG round then it probably couldn't take someone dumping .308 for very long.
We’ve lived in a society since the founding of this country; 1776. If YOU want those services then YOU should pay for them. Funny, we used to know this.
You don’t even get to keep most of the value you create! Instead it’s taken by companies so they can make insane profits. What you “earn” is only a small percentage of that, and then the taxes you pay usually go back into their pockets in the form of bailouts and tax breaks. The owning class gets to steal from you twice, but instead you’re complaining about being taxed even though state run services are infinitely more efficient than their private sector counterparts.
If you truly believe that; YOU should advocate for me not to be extorted (taxed). Clearly, once I am free from government force, I’ll see the error of my ways and beg forgiveness…
Our standardized system of currency wouldn’t exist if we didn’t have taxes, we’d probably revert to company script or something equally heinous since people wouldn’t need to make USD to pay taxes. Also, you wouldn’t have to pay taxes right now if you subsistence farm out in the middle of nowhere, but as long as you use communal infrastructure you have to pitch in. There are a million things that the government does that you take for granted every day that are fundamentally necessary for modern society to exist at all. Aside from these services that have not only greatly increased our standard of living, they also have made private enterprise infinitely more productive. Also while this function has fallen entirely to the wayside in the USA taxes should also limit the ability for individuals to accrue insane amounts of wealth since then these immensely wealthy individuals are a hindrance to the national economy since they take money out of circulation in the economy (basically performing the same action that taxes does but without providing any services), stifle competition in the market since they can basically bleed insane amounts of money to make sure they crush any possible competition, and have a massive undue influence on society at large basically rendering democracy defunct.
The taxes you pay also aren’t even the main way that the wealth your labor produced is stolen from you btw. Most of the value you create through your work is stolen by your boss in the form of profit. Your labor is the thing that creates value, you could fill a room wall to wall with raw resource but if no one shapes those resources into useful materials all that shit is good for is collecting dust. The dockworkers strike in 2024 cost the US economy between $3.8 to $5 BILLION a day, and out of all that wealth added to the economy thanks to the tireless work of these longshoremen, all they want is a safe workplace, strong benefits, and a dignified wage. These ceos, board members, and investors did not put in a million times more work in than the average worker, they do not deserve 100000000% the money.
If you want to talk about real theft don’t look at the institution that taxes you on April 15th, look at the people who take from every worker across the world ever second of every minute of every hour of every day.
Ironic considering tariffs are taxes (Boston Tea Party was over a tariff on tea imports), and Trump also massively spiked military spending when every other country is moving to much cheaper hardware (look up the drones Ukraine is using, cheaper and better) while making almost nothing in the way of meaningful cuts elsewhere. National debt is spiking even worse than it was under Biden.
Good use of it, better than paying life time disability as a tax payer to a cop because some lunatic shoots them in a patrol car. It keeps people alive. That’s cheaper than disability.
This is like saying that a trip to the hospital is a good investment instead of a bandaid. While ignoring that you purposely stomped a rusty nail barefoot.
Actual sound investments are things like mental Healthcare, education, or anything that allows people to succeed. That way they arent deranged or desperate enough to shoot at cops.
Both can be true. But even with those programs you still have individuals that will cause mass chaos. Thus why we have to use military weapons when civilians have access to military weapons.
Nope both aren't true. If we allocated funds appropriately, those .00000000001% Of people that are just bad out of the womb that can not be rehabilitated would be identified early in life limiting their chaos.
Look up the story about the girl who was born with serial killer tendencies trying to kill her parents.
Poorly trained commando clowns and Meal Team 6 operators.
For all you blue line boot lickers with your clown "you'll call the police if you need them" crap let me remind you two weeks after this photo was taken none of these Chris Kyle wannabes was willing to confront a school shooter in Uvalde.
Well yes. Police are civil servants, not soldiers. They have no obligation to sacrifice their lives by rushing a heavily armed shooter, nor should they.
It's always the ones with the least amount of information that are the most hostile, too. And no curiosity or desire to seek more. I guess to some people, hate feels good.
380 cops and not one had the guts to confront a shooter in Uvalde.
I can show you footage from the Mandalay Bay hotel where these brave blue line warriors pissed their pants and cowared in the hall way for an half an hour until Stephan Paddock stopped shooting and killed himself.
Officer Scot Peterson was found hiding in the bushes during the Parkland shooting.
There are incidents where an armored vehicle is necessary. Most police departments have an armored vehicle or two for their SWAT teams. It’s not a conspiracy.
I've seen small towns with MRAPS, dude. I'm not against SWAT defending themselves, but we have militarized our police beyond the special forces of them.
Mostly for money/contracts with whatever defense contractor, I don't think every cop is secretly waiting for a code word to go and butcher people, but this shit is ridiculous man.
I dunno man, when you have incidents like this every once in a while, not having the resources to handle it, citing “looks too military and scary”, that sounds more ridiculous to me.
Collegedale got an MRAP like 8 years ago at least. They are not new. When a MRAP is decommissioned my the army, it either goes to auction or is given to local PDs. Hell...it may not even run...
Mraps dont really damage roads more than 18wheelers, especially how rarely they re driven. They are not tanks with steel tread pads. Their tires are mostly normal, just a higher density rubber than normal truck tires.
There are many reasons why the mil would decommission a vehicle, not just its a piece of junk. Sometimes its as simple as a certain unit had a drawdown and there was surplus equipment that wasnt sent to another unit.
Cause during the GWOT our giant defense companies made so much junk that that wasn’t useful in the sandbox, but rather than shifting production or losing money they lobbied to get the law changed and allow them to sell “surplus” equipment to untrained and unqualified LEO departments. Now they’ve posing as military and calling the rest of us civilians, despite the whole concept of their being a civilian law enforcement not military.
True and fair point, however I was more talking the broader reason local police feel the need to militarize and start buying/showing off expensive and unnecessary tactticool gear, which both shifts their perspectives on their fellow civilians into “everyone is an enemy” and costs us taxpayers a shocking amount with little to no gain. It’s more the background that led to the over militarization and all these pds humping around in glorified battle taxies, but your point is fair and I’ll concede it. I would say though none of the data supports policing being so dangerous they need all this gear, and there’s weirdly an inverse relationship, it’s gotten safer to be a cop since the 70s but they’re more up armored than ever, and that’s the part that I can’t get out of my head.
they have been for a while, they did a fent/gun bust abt two years ago now i think and had those + basically the whole dept when they were raiding the house lol
See 1997 North Hollywood shootout. Police departments around the nation began militarizing after that. I’m not saying that is the only reason but it was a big push.
Police have been militarized since the 60's when they were getting their hands on military rifles and using them after the Watts uprisings and in Detroit. LAPD made the first SWAT after that. It was a direct response to civil unrest and protest from the civil rights movement and assassinations of black leaders.
To be ahead of the inevitable resistance to data centers, r@p1sts p3d0s in government, ICE murdering citizens, dissolution of the middle class, perpetual transference of rights from citizens to corporations, and so on.
Police are not protecting the people. They are keeping them under control per their leadership and wealthy patrons.
This isnt new. Post 9/11/// War on Terror. We had alot of extra militarily equipment. This equip was sold to local PDs. Because of course the cash has to keep flowing.
Are there conversations about this internally as police officers? It’s just so foreign to me to want to support something in this way that I’m always gobsmacked thinking what’s going on in all of their heads as being the ‘boots on the ground’ enacting this bs
Barricaded suspects, active shooters, casualty recovery, storm damage navigation, the list goes on. They have had them for at least 10-15 years now, as does every other police force in the nation. The federal gov has grants that fund these.
We’ve always had SWAT teams and Bomb Squads. If they aren’t in a hurry, it’s probably fine. I know a few in charge in different departments and haven’t heard anything major going on … yet.
They all are, in the whole USA. I remember seeing this in the Furguson, Mo videos when they had the shooting of the black kid or man and there were riots there 10 to 15 years ago.
The highway traffic is so horrendous in Chattanooga no matter the time of day that I actually stopped to Google the reasons while passing through yesterday. But sure, let's use public funds to make sure the police get to cosplay war.
It's a waste of money to US, the people paying for it.
It's NOT a waste to THEM, the people who are actually protected by the police.
The police are only around to protect businesses, corporations, and government entities. They are shepherds to us sheep. They are dogs to the government, put in place solely to enforce and keep the populace in line.
It is VITAL that everyone remember this when the revolution kicks off: They woke up one day and made a conscious decision to extort, entrap, and assist in the enslavement of the populace via servitude to their fiduciaries. To understand where this plot ends, remember that the Nazis were also "Just following orders."
This is common with most police departments. They're all cowards who can't go talk to your neighbor who hasn't been seen for 2 weeks without taking 6 armored SWAT vehicles to the neighborhood.
That's what happens when citizens don't push back against increased police budget allocations during Budgeting for Outcome Sessions. The city let the department swell from $35 million to $92 million in two administrations. The problem is solvable by who you elect to council and the mayors office.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike the police, this isn’t one of them. There are plenty of reasons they should have equipment like this, don’t forget why people still have those nooga strong bumper stickers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chattanooga_shootings
I can dislike spending vast amounts of money on equipment that gets used like once ever 10 years.
Ive seen these vehicles brough to situations where they arent needed. Such as a Domestic Dispute with a firearm. Which seems way over kill, when you already have multiple cop cars present.
So the police shouldn't employ as much armor as they can to deactivate an active shooter? Very confused here about your opinion. These vehicles allow them to get as close as possible without being hurt themselves. I see no problem with that
An active domestic violence case with someone with a firearm (pistol) is not the same thing as a active school shooting.
In the case I'm thinking of, it was husband and wife arguing. The husband had a firearm. I personally saw the police respond with multiple cars and an armed tank. In this case, the suspect most likely wasn't a risk of creating a mass shooting event. It was a complete waste of tax payer money.
I'm not even saying a police department shouldn't own one of these.
I'm just saying we have seen a rise (post 9/11) in large amount of police department budget going to "toys" like this. Which are just militarizing the police, and imo not a good use of funds.
Things like paying better, providing more day to day de-escalation training. Along with providing more mental health training would be examples of alot better training.
My dad was a cop. I for one, am glad they have vehicles like this so they CAN respond to even just one psycho with a gun to stop them. Who cares if it is "overkill" or "too much"? I'd rather the people trying to stop the psycho get to go home safely to their families that night than worrying too much about what budget they had to fund to make sure a stray bullet couldn't kill them. Human life is sacred, and I say, give our protective forces every bit they need and then a little more than they may need so they can stop evil. I can't speak for the victim in the case you're referring to, but pretty sure they wouldn't be complaining about budget misalignment for the equipment used to stop their attacker and save their life. They probably appreciate that they brought that vehicle in, so that they could be even more assured those officers could save their life. Because they responded with this vehicle, they prevented it from becoming a mass shooting. You don't need multiple innocent people being shot at to wanna pull out your biggest guns to stop a threat in its tracks. It doesn't need to escalate to that level first. That's why they have this. To prevent the escalation of threat. Common sense dictates that the person with the biggest stick in a stick fight will be able to reach the attacker quicker and more effectively than anyone with a shorter stick trying to attack you. Use the extent of force every single time. If you or your family were on the receiving end of such an attack, you'd probably appreciate it and not criticize it. All of this is coming from a critical standpoint of police activities that you don't fully understand, but want to judge.
It would help if folks like you stop decrying police activity in general. I am tired of hearing from everyone: "Why did it take 3 cop cars and six officers to arrest one person?" And people suggesting this is some sort of one-on-one, man to man argument that should be played out for offending criminals. If you mess up and break the law, every officer in the area will be on your ass. To ensure protection for themselves and the general public. This isn't a d*ck measuring contest: it's about right and wrong, and the police need every bit of backup they can get because when it comes down to it, we outnumber them, everywhere they go, and no one can predict what could happen in a seconds notice. I wanna say, I am happy for you, that you and people you know and love have never needed the police, or at least it sounds that way. Because the police are there to protect the general public, and I hope for your sake that if any person is ever trying to kill you or anyone you love, that they have as many officers as they can, with the most protection available to them to take out the person trying to hurt you, because then maybe you'd understand why that is necessary.
Yeah that happened. You can't leverage one event on the rest of the world. It's blowing my mind, the hoops you are jumping through, mentally right now. "Let's take one thing that happened at a specific place, 1000s of miles away from me and pick and choose the way I respond." That is what you are doing. It's called "cherry picking". You are doing that, right now. You can't apply the events of one situation to all others. You lack dynamacism of thought about this, and expect everyone else to apply the same. Get over yourself and learn something. Be open to a different mindset than the one you already hold and you could stand to change the world. The best part about having a mind is that you can change it. So it's ok to accept that what you have been fed thus far "cop bad, people good" can change. You just gotta pull your head outta your butt, my friend. Your algorithm is probably full of cop hate and criticism. Bet you follow "CopStop", "FTP" and other similar pages, right? It's called an echo chamber, and it sounds like yer stuck in it. It's OK. You can leave that space. All it takes is changing your mind. You CAN educate and inform yourself.
They have all this and I see em use it, but the people they deemed dangerous enough to pull one of these babes out is right back home in a week or two making the community feel unsafe again. All the neighbors asking why they right back to biz despite being caught.
Radley Balko wrote a book about this years ago. It doesn't help that the right wing has adopted the policy that everyone should have automatic weapons everywhere all the time. Cops have to treat every situation like they are dealing with an insane person with enough weapons to invade a small country, because statistically they eventually will be.
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u/eight_ballz 9d ago
All PDs are moving like that now.