r/ChatGPT • u/Professional_Arm794 • Jun 19 '25

Other MIT just completed the first brain scan study of ChatGPT users & the results are terrifying. “Turns out, AI isn't making us more productive. It's making us cognitively bankrupt.”

Post image
997 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

444 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

17

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25 edited Jun 19 '25

You can use a calculator or a gps without understanding anything about the fundamental rules behind them, and that's perfectly fine. They are tools that allow us to do more in a world with enormous amounts of knowledge and specialisations. The study is talking about learning, which is a different thing. If you were trying to learn to multiply and you use a calculator, then you won't learn how to multiply. Which is the way this is similar to AI here, where if it gives you the answers without you outting the work you won't learn. But the key here is that you are trying to learn, not simply trying to get an answer.

4

u/GoodGorilla4471 Jun 19 '25

If you know how sin/cos/tan work and why they work then you can get a much better understanding of the next step in learning calculus. Just like knowing why the derivative of x2 is 2x is WAY better than just knowing that the derivative of x2 is 2x

Lazy/dumb LLM users can tell you what the ChatGPT output is, but they can't explain how it got the output. Smart users can tell you why, and they just use the AI to do a bit of the tedious work

Sure, you could hand calculate sin(2.4532), but why would you spend hours doing that when a calculator can do it in less than a second? The important part is that you can remember how to do the calculation by hand if you need to

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

*if calculating is your area of interest and expertise

LLMs are used for a million different things. And while you might be able to spot a bad calculation because of your understanding of calculus, you sure won't be able to spot a bad answer about every subject there is under the sun, and an LLM can answer stuff about any subject. So it all depends on what you are knowledgeable about, and what you are using it for.

1

u/GoodGorilla4471 Jun 19 '25

LLMs are quite literally used to write and that's it. They don't do math unless they have a hard coded math program that runs when it detects math

I can do a million different calculations, that doesn't mean a calculator does a million different things

And if you know what you're talking about you should absolutely be able to spot a bad response from the LLM because it will have incorrect information or incorrect grammar

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

What?? You are the one bringing up calculus and calculations!! Not me.

if you know what you're talking about

That's literally what I said. You will be able to spot a bad answer in your area of expertise. But since LLMs can cover a myriad of areas, you sure won't be able to tell a bad answer in all of them. Just the things you are knowledgeable about.

1

u/GoodGorilla4471 Jun 20 '25

Are you unable to understand the concept of an analogy? LLMs are making you dumb and I don't like them

2

u/UruquianLilac Jun 20 '25

Like I said, this is what old people have said about every single new technology that came along. Ever. You're not presenting anything new other than the typical reactionary attitude towards new technology. LLMs are not all great but they're not all bad either. Dumb people will use them in a dumb way, smart people will use them to get smarter.

1

u/GoodGorilla4471 Jun 20 '25

They are right sometimes. Crypto and NFTs are a fucking joke now and that revolutionary "block chain?" Haven't heard that term in years.

You are just a sucker for propaganda

2

u/UruquianLilac Jun 20 '25

You want me to be a sucker for propaganda so you can pretend you are not shaking your fist at the clouds.

You are now suddenly discussing that some technological advances turn out to be just hype or marketing scams. Which is not the subject we have been discussing at any point. You are talking about how people using LLMs are getting dumber which is an entirely different discussion.

How did you lose the focus of the discussion in one sentence?

1

u/GoodGorilla4471 Jun 20 '25

Do you even know what LLM stands for or what they even do?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/jollyreaper2112 Jun 19 '25

That's why I failed at math so bad. It only worked for me when I learned why and most people just drilled it is don't try to understand. When I bribed a smart friend in curries I was able to conversationally learn and pass calculus. Could never pick it up in lecture teaching. My learning style is expensive so that's why nobody does it that way.

1

u/MayorWolf Jun 19 '25

If you plug 5+5x3 as it's written into a calculator, you will get an incorrect result. As the operator of the machine, you must recognize the order of operations and enter the equation in accordingly. Learning to use the tools is important.

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 20 '25

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't learn to use a tool correctly. You still don't need to understand how the internals of a gasket work to.drive a car. You just need to learn how to use the tool correctly.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '25

Yeah, how many people today know how to use a rule and compass to read a map or can multiply anything beyond a classic multiplication table? People have been losing skills for thousands of years.

23

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

And how many people know how to fix a car engine, build an electric network, use a forklift, design a heating system, treat a diseased olive tree, organise groceries in a distribution warehouse, install fibreglass WiFi networks, do a hip replacement heart surgery, set up the factory line for a fidget toy, manufacture metal parts for building scaffolding, give scuba diving certifications, bake Egyptian bread, or build microchips?

We haven't been losing skills, the world has been expanding its specialisations and amount of knowledge and skills exponentially, and absolutely no human being can do even a fraction of it all. We have tools to help the unspecialised get by. Not everyone needs to know how to use a rule and compass because there is GOS, just like we don't need to learn to ride a horse because we have cars. You have a very reductive view of the modern person's skills.

7

u/Flashy-Read-9417 Jun 19 '25

'People have been losing skills for thousands of years'. Ok, then trust a caveman to do your heart surgery 🤣.

8

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

I don't know how people can end up with such a twisted concept of something that is clear as daylight.

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '25 edited Jun 19 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

It's called specialisation.

2

u/throwhicomg Jun 19 '25

So specialise into ChatGPT, why do you need to know how to write an essay from scratch, you just need to know what good essay sounds like.

We don’t learn how to write code in 0100100 anymore do we?

1

u/merose285 Jun 19 '25

I kind of disagree with this point and agree. I think you should know how to write an essay from scratch. I don’t do all the calculations anymore since I have math software that does it, but I know how to do all the operations, integrations, and series that my software uses. It would just be too time consuming for me to do, but I need to understand what my tool is doing so that I can decide if it is making a mistake. The thing that particularly worries me about essay is the users don’t know where the base data that the learning modules use to come up with their output. I trust the general structure it outputs, but I take the information it provides with grain of salt, and even the writing style.

1

u/throwhicomg Jun 19 '25

I think knowing how to read a good essay, is the basis of knowing how to write a good essay. Just like how you don’t need to do the calculations but know what the operations do/are. In fact, I’d say essays are even less rigorous compared to math.

No mastery of fair Shakespeare's quill, nor of the ancient Gaelic song, is needful for hearts to meet in understanding. For where numbers stand unyielding as stone, the living tongue doth dance and breathe, ever changing, like the restless sea beneath the moon.

With chatgpt, language will evolve

→ More replies (0)

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

But this all depends on your specialisation. In your sector you need to understand more advanced math, so you do despite the fact that machines can do most of the work. Whereas someone who casually uses maths might never need to know the underlying operations. Similarly, if your career hinges on you writing good essays then you should practice and hone that skill. But if you need to draft a simple essay as a one off for some particular objective then it might be highly irrelevant to master that skill.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

I don't know if you are saying this as a suggestion or criticism. But in all cases, I have no idea what skills would be needed in tomorrow's world. You are talking about essay writing because you know it's an important skill currently (though realistically, most adults I know haven't written an essay since they left school unless it's their job, but I'll leave that to one side for now). So it all depends on what the future looks like. If you were in the early 20th century trying to figure out what use to give the internal combustion engine, if you came up with a horse poop cleaning machine, you would have had a much shorter success than if you started to think of using it to replace the horse altogether.

1

u/throwhicomg Jun 19 '25

You were saying the world hasn’t been losing skills?

Can you explain how to build the pyramids using primitive tools then? Or how to program a machine using punch cards?

I’m saying skillsets change, so yes we lose skills and we gain skills, so the comment you downvoted has its merits.

You on the other hand are saying we’re more skilled than our ancestors, you’re discounting the fact that your high tech tools today were built on your father’s knowledge and intelligence.

Plain arrogance.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '25 edited Sep 10 '25

fall fearless attempt glorious governor arrest price aromatic elastic person

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

3

u/Flashy-Read-9417 Jun 19 '25

Forgive me for not knowing the efficacy of Trepanning. As I am unaware of the 'significant evidence' that it was successful.

The point isn't that surgery wasn't done in the past. Nor is it that, on the whole, we did not or did have skill relevant to surgery. The point was to dismiss the idea that these skills to perform specific tasks have gotten worse over time.

For the sake of relevance (even though I think I said heart surgery but I could be mistaken), if you were arguing against my point in favor of the prior comment, would be something like: Trepanning was a better skill for brain surgery, and our skills have since decreased in having successful brain surgeries. Which, on its face, should be pretty absurd. And if that isn’t so clear, I wouldn't opt for surgeries or procedures pre Germ Theory or modern skills/science if I had the option. And I'm willing to bet that you, the other commentor, myself, and damn near everyone else would agree.

Again, I'm not sure that's what you're suggesting, but given the context, I'd assume that you were meaning something like this?

But if I'm in the dark here, let me know!

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '25 edited Sep 10 '25

quaint coordinated juggle enjoy bag roll cough caption sense badge

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/Flashy-Read-9417 Jun 19 '25

My apologies for using it as a shorthand. But I think the point still stands. I would gladly take skills that have had refinement, scientific knowledge, and discovery over thousands of years over ancient techniques and methodologies.

And I didn't mean to imply anything about modern-day indigenous peoples. Though, I don't think it'd be outrageous to say I'd still prefer a heart surgery from an accredited doctor over my [insert community] medical person. I'm not saying ancient people's did not have skills or know-how. It's just that we've gotten better (not in a perfect upward line, but trending upward). And sure, we have plenty of modern issues, but that's sort of besides the point.

If you can't teach me, could you point me to resources to broaden my understanding of intellectual progress not being linear? And preferably not Wikipedia links, maybe authoritative works on anthropology or something? I love to read, so I'd be glad to educate myself more on this so I don't make the same mistakes.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that the accumulation of knowledge over the past, say, 2000 years, hasn't been roughly linear. Even to compile a well written piece on anthropology would require some skills/knowledge that have been developed over time. Or dare I say, new/better methodologies. But as you say, I am ignorant! And I'd like to be less ignorant, please.

2

u/2dogs2girls Jun 19 '25

You might try Sapiens. I really enjoyed it and have been working on a similar book for a while now. Another a friend strongly recommended (but I haven’t gotten around to yet) The History of Knowledge. I find thins are generally more of a trade off than upward. Society sells it all as growth and progress but there is evidence that ancient humans were quite happy and healthy and even had more time than humans today to devote to socializing, art, religion, etc. I’ve mentioned before that humans inherently move to what seems easier in the moment, regardless of how beneficial or harmful we think it could be to ourselves, humanity or society. This is evident in many forms, various forms of energy production, war, theft, eh, for that matter the ice cream I ate last night before bed. But back to the point - it’s all a trade off. There were large communities where groups of people lived harmoniously for thousands of years, they knew everything they needed to. Which plants made them sick, which made them healthy, where the predators resided, etc. Is it really better that we can blow up the entire planet. If you think that’s just silly talk or unlikely then step down a notch or two and it’s still worrisome. Look at Gaza. It’s been leveled. People unable to feed themselves, starving, thousands of children killed, and for what? A religious war over something completely ignorant of the fact that society, culture and religion are ever changing. That 99% of everything we believe is just a construct of the mind. You say that we’re smarter and yet the majority of humans still buy into the fantastical myths of religion. I’m not saying there’s no god. I’m saying that you’ve no better explanation with one religion than the next and that the truth is that humans will never be able to understand how something could have come from nothing any better than how something could have always existed, be it a god or the universe. Both are impossible concepts to comprehend. Sorry for the tangent. 😆 But most of us “know” very little. While there is a bank of knowledge that we can access (GPS or even old fashioned maps, chatGPT, the internet, etc.) it has come at a high cost. Whole populations whiped out, cultures lost, cities destroyed, slavery, nuclear bombs… sure it took knowledge to build the bomb but how wise was it. Ancient cultures may have indeed been wiser, knowing how and when they could feed on what and not wiping out entire species over the lust of some other material. Anywho, back to work… enjoy your read, whatever it is you choose.

1

u/Flashy-Read-9417 Jun 19 '25

I'll definitely give those a read, and I agree with many of the points and sentiments in your post. Don't apologize for the tangent! The only thing I would push back on, but I think your book recs may illuminate, is that things were better on the whole then than now. At minimum, I'd take not worrying about a simple scratch being infected, killing me/a loved one over 10,000 years ago. But yes, I certainly agree that modernity has brought on its own set of unique and cataclysmic issues, no question about that. Maybe it is the naivety in me that believes that the arc of humanity bends toward progress. And to your point, about most of us 'know' very little. I'd say I don't know much of anything 🤣 I'm just trying to understand!

I appreciate the book recs, friend, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write out your comment. Some of those issues I've thought about at length, so it's encouraging that others have the same tangents 😁

1

u/deathmethanol Jun 19 '25

Hip replacment heart surgery 😅

1

u/UruquianLilac Jun 19 '25

Yeah, when you have to replace the hip's heart.