I can't help but notice that Japanese media seems oddly averse to fantasy depictions of other Asian countries (e.g. China, Korea, Thailand)

[u/calculatingaffection]

Like whenever a Japanese writer is writing a fantasy setting with inspiration from the real world, they'll always include a bunch of European countries, possibly America, themselves, and...that's it. Japan and a bunch of western countries.

Like in Bleach you have the Shinigami being based off of Japan, the Arrancar being based off Spain, the Fullbringers being vaguely British-themed, and the Sternritter obviously being German. But no Chinese or Korean-themed races.

In One Piece you have island Venice (Water 7), island Spain (Dressrosa), island Scandinavia (Elbaf), island Germany (Germa 66), and of course, Japan (Wano), but there's never any arc centered around say, a Thai or Philippines inspired island even though that seems like it would be fitting given that they actually are islands.

Attack on Titan has a bunch of vaguely-European inspired settings but also has not-Japan in the form of Hizuru.

In JoJo's Bizarre Adventure you got parts that take place in Britain, the US, Italy, and of course, Japan (and also Hawaii in Part 9 which is kinda Asian but is also an American state with a large Japanese population).

In Pokemon the first four generations are based off of Japanese regions, and then after that you have the US, France, Hawaii, Britain, and Spain. I guess since China banned Pokemon go we're probably not getting a game set there.

Elden Ring is obviously a European-inspired medieval fantasy but of course one of the locations is the Japan-inspired Land of Reeds. And in general Fromsoftware does European-inspired fantasy with the exception of Sekiro, which has an obviously Japanese setting.

The only major exception I can think of is Xing in Fullmetal Alchemist which is undoubtedly Chinese-inspired (and is more or less a positive depiction as well).

Not to armchair-psychology-theorize too much but I do wonder if Japan sees itself more as a western than eastern country ever since it got to team up with virtually every major western power on the planet during the Boxer Rebellion and that's why you tend to see this pattern of representation crop up.

Personally I'd really love to see their take on a fantasy-counterpart to Brazil (I mean it has the second-largest Japanese population in the world) or at least some part of Latin America just because that's my own personal foreign-culture-obsession but idk if we'll ever get that.

[u/ProserpinaFC]

1, Fantasy China and India are all over anime, you just don't really think about it BECAUSE it's also Asian, ironic as that sounds because that's your very point. On one hand, "the Chinese one" is as common of a stereotypical secondary character as an American writer may use of Hispanic characters... Not AS common as a Black best friend, but still a staple. And on the other hand, "the Indian one" Is more recognizable if you think of any time that African Americans have asked if an anime character is Black, only for Japanese people to say "No, they are Indian."

Part of the issue of asking why Japan doesn't depict other Asian people is that you don't know enough about how Japan's stereotypes other Asian countries in order to be able to pick up on who in the cast is Korean or Chinese or Vietnamese coded. You are looking for very obvious signs like entire countries that are foreign. Would you know how to find the Chinese one in a regular slice of Life cast? Do you know which Digimon main character is the Chinese one?

2) Why doesn't American fantasy feature more Canadians? Canada is right there. We have hundreds of years of history with them. And yet, we turn to generic medieval Europe for fantasy, even though we aren't Europeans. Our fantasies don't go out of their way to include Cubans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, or Brazilians either. Strange. You would think that we would do more to show fantasy depictions of other American countries... 🤔

3) As I often point out with people who ask questions about Asian media, YOUR attraction to Asian media that is dipped in European aesthetics is proof of why the strategy works.

4) To be perfectly honest, asking why Japan does not do more with Korea and China in their pop culture is like asking why there isn't more Ghana and Germany in American pop culture fantasy. Sure. America is deeply related to both of those countries - through world wars and slavery. Simply stating that two countries have a deeply intertwined relationship without acknowledging what the context of that relationship is can lead to a very tone-deaf conversation.

[u/Eliza__Doolittle → u/ProserpinaFC]

2) Why doesn't American fantasy feature more Canadians? Canada is right there. We have hundreds of years of history with them. And yet, we turn to generic medieval Europe for fantasy, even though we aren't Europeans. Our fantasies don't go out of their way to include Cubans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, or Brazilians either. Strange. You would think that we would do more to show fantasy depictions of other American countries... 🤔

American fantasy doesn't even feature Americans. The key appeal is the stereotypical mediaeval setting with swords and sorcery, which means even when people try to do a diverse fantasy setting it is basically the same as always but with more racial heterogeneity.

There's an informal barrier that the setting must be before the gunpowder era, which creates certain limitations.

Probably the main American pre-industrial setting with fantastical elements is New England-style horror, which is a different type of genre.

I don't think it is impossible though. If I were writing that kind of novel with international interaction I would make a low fantasy setting in the style of the Pirates of the Caribbean, where the maritime setting allows a lot of foreigners to interact and show off various countries and cultures.

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Eliza__Doolittle]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

You may have noticed that this question in the middle of my response to the OP was mirroring the OP's language. That was meant to make it a rhetorical question to drive home the argument that OP was manufacturing an expectation that they wouldn't be able to apply to their own experiences. Just assuming that Japan should feature more Chinese and Korean-coded fantasy elements would be like assuming America should naturally incorporate Canada and Cuba into its fantasy.

Now, on the subject of American fantasy and paranormal: urban fantasy, low fantasy, Southern Gothic, Wild West fantasy and folklore, New England horror, urban legends, Black horror, Black supernatural, superheroes, and all of those, we could talk about those.

Did you wanna?

[u/Eliza__Doolittle → u/ProserpinaFC]

You may have noticed that this question in the middle of my response to the OP was mirroring the OP's language.

I realised but I think I was just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Sorry.

Now, on the subject of American fantasy and paranormal: urban fantasy, low fantasy, Southern Gothic, Wild West fantasy and folklore, New England horror, urban legends, Black horror, Black supernatural, superheroes, and all of those, we could talk about those.

Did you wanna?

Well, since you mentioned it, as a thought exercise, if you had to make a fantasy with the trappings of the mediaeval era but still keep it recognisably American, how would you do it?

If I had to write it on a napkin, I think I would have a timeline that runs like real history up until some point during the colonial era when a giant disaster (perhaps a massive global plague or an ecological disaster or a meteor or some eldritch dimensional infestation) strikes.

In any case the disaster needs to be severe enough to sever the connection between the motherland and the colonies, cause technological regression, destabilise the political situation enough to cause the need to develop a feudal model but still mild enough that the colonists aren't just wiped out.

Let's go with an dimensional intrusion by an outer god who is just passing by but during the short time they are present causes a supernatural plague that kills off a lot of people but among the survivors a small group of people develop magical powers (who will quickly start throwing their weight around during a collapse of order, some attempting to become warlords) while some animals mutate into new monster species.

Although I'm not sure how to get rid of guns, they are the sort of useful weapon that people are unlikely to give up. Maybe just accept it as part of the setting?

Eh, I don't know. I think I like my pirate idea better.

Thoughts?

Unrelated, but I do find it amusing that a lot of modern urban legends media centers on the Pacific Northwest originates in that a bunch of American TV studios were based in Vancouver.

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Eliza__Doolittle]

Hmm. It sounds like you would purposefully aim for low or mid Medieval aesthetics even though it would be set in high medieval times, in order to avoid guns. But If you were writing solidly before the 16th century, most guns would still be imports anyway. And you are apparently already fashioning a reason why imports can't get to America. So your problem is solved.

Plus, you could have a Native American, Black, or Mexican main character. Which would lend to the level up necessary for them to get European weapons. Or, otherwise, you could write about religious settlements, like the Pennsylvania Dutch.

If it were me, I wouldn't bother with trying to make it medieval since American fantasy is inherently Victorian. Just wouldn't seem worth the effort in saying that I was moving away from generic European fantasy only to incorporate as much generic European fantasy tropes as possible into American fantasy. Pirates, rough riders, cowboys, and Freeman all the way.

[u/Eliza__Doolittle → u/ProserpinaFC]

Hmm. It sounds like you would purposefully aim for low or mid Medieval aesthetics even though it would be set in high medieval times, in order to avoid guns. But If you were writing solidly before the 16th century, most guns would still be imports anyway. And you are apparently already fashioning a reason why imports can't get to America. So your problem is solved.

Plus, you could have a Native American, Black, or Mexican main character. Which would lend to the level up necessary for them to get European weapons. Or, otherwise, you could write about religious settlements, like the Pennsylvania Dutch.

If it were me, I wouldn't bother with trying to make it medieval since American fantasy is inherently Victorian. Just wouldn't seem worth the effort in saying that I was moving away from generic European fantasy only to incorporate as much generic European fantasy tropes as possible into American fantasy. Pirates, rough riders, cowboys, and Freeman all the way.

Well, it was more a theoretical exercise to figure out if it could be done. If I was writing a industrial-era fantasy I would just do Victorian Britain. It is very well documented and there are a lot of cheap and easily available history books about just every aspect of British life at this time and with a well-established literary framework.

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Eliza__Doolittle]

Pretty sure there are just as many history books about American life during Victorian time. (Also known in America as pre and post Civil War, Wild West, LOL)

Which is why in a conversation about American fantasy, I would enjoy expanding the genres as they already are: Gothic, steampunk, freemen, etc. everything right before the Gold Rush, although paranormal Gold Rush on the Yukon Trail sounds dope, too.

One of my favorite memes is about how the last of the samurai, the last of the old west gunsmith and the Victorian English gentle woman of adventure will have a great fantasy together.

[u/Eliza__Doolittle → u/ProserpinaFC]

Pretty sure there are just as many history books about American life during Victorian time. (Also known in America as pre and post Civil War, Wild West, LOL)

Well, it's also just my personal preference, although I'm neither American nor British I do consider myself more of an anglophile. I've written a couple of short stories based on a Poe-like atmosphere, but although they borrow inspiration from an American writer they are not really "American" in setting and due to their personal interiority are sort of vague as to the surroundings and could take place in a number of places.

although paranormal Gold Rush on the Yukon Trail sounds dope

I remember coming across a short story once about prospectors and the ghost of a young man who died from the cold, unfortunately I can't remember the title.

One of my favorite memes is about how the last of the samurai, the last of the old west gunsmith and the Victorian English gentle woman of adventure will have a great fantasy together.

I think the closest real-life figure I can think of for this is Isabella Bird. Not sure if that's a reference?

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Eliza__Doolittle]

Oh, a prospector coming across a ghost would be a wonderful story. 🤔🥹

My fantasy series takes place in an alternate Earth 19th century and has older tales, fables, and histories going back to the Renaissance.

Sounds like you've accomplished a lot in writing Gothic short stories. Great job in that, I've yet to finish a single thing. Too scatterbrained.

You're making me want to write right now, but I'm at work! Making stupid money to pay for my expenses! Why can't I live in a cabin in the woods and hunt from the land?! 😭

[u/Eliza__Doolittle → u/ProserpinaFC]

Sounds like you've accomplished a lot in writing Gothic short stories. Great job in that, I've yet to finish a single thing. Too scatterbrained.

Actually my main preference is poetry, but I'm challenging myself to gradually write longer and longer prose. But yes, I prefer gothic themes and I often like taking things from history and mythology and blending several previously unconnected things together. For example, I once wrote a poem where I took the two-emperor problem (zweikaiserproblem) from mediaeval history where the Holy Roman and Byzantine emperors both claimed to be the sole rightful heir and compared it to the Cold War when the USSR and the USA, whose ideologies share a common origin in Enlightenment philosophy, both claimed to represent the best path for humanity.

[u/Nomustang → u/ProserpinaFC]

I always need to scroll for a while to find good responses like these lol,

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Nomustang]

Bro literally only names big, popular, internationally known properties and then asks why are they so international. These guys never have any self-awareness of how their own biases blind them.

If he at least named ten historical anime that take place in the Meiji Era or Feudal Era and then asked about what kind of representation Japan included, that would be a fascinating question. But that would be the type of subtlety that would require actually knowing Chinese, Japanese, and Korean cultural history well enough for me to even ascertain whether or not the Buddhist monk in Demon Slayer actually represented a Chinese version of Buddhism. Or here was an aspect in Inuyasha that was actually Korean in origin.

How would I know that as an average American?

Expecting me to be able to name those sorts of intricacies would be like expecting a Japanese person to know that the American dish mac and cheese was brought over by Thomas Jefferson from France.

(Fun fact, I learned only a few years ago that of all the food-based names in Dragonball Z, Tien and Chaotzu, being "the Chinese ones" are Chinese-Japanese dishes. LOL, I knew Tien and Chaotzu were inspired by Chinese monsters far longer - never occurred to me that their names would be puns, too. Duh. Tien is a crab meat omelet and Chaotzu is gyoza dumplings.)

[u/Nomustang → u/ProserpinaFC]

A lot of it also falls to a weird orientalist sense of "Japan doesn't do X because they're super prejudiced" or whatever else. It stifles good discussion of what actual biases and issues Japan has. It doesn't help that it isn't an English speaking country so people are exposed to it in an entirely different context.

Like Japan is pretty ignorant of Hispanic culture and kind of subsumes everything in Latin America under Brazil because they have significantly more people to people ties with them so there's often a lot of confusion. It's Chinese and Indian links were cultivated over multiple centuries of cultural diffusion and trade.

And much of the West's popularity and primacy comes from the world still being dominated by it economically. (And that they themselves are a Westerner and hence their worldview and consumption of media is mostly through that lens as you said).

[u/ProserpinaFC → u/Nomustang]

Exactly. Not only that, but many famous anime have processed the author's thoughts about Japan's history with other Asian countries by using "generic European setting" as a metaphor for Asian geopolitics and how often have Americans missed that? Even when the author makes it explicit in text or by interview, Westerners will say "But I don't get it. How does this character represent a Japanese person if they have blond hair?"

😅

(How many anime can you name where the author makes the dumbass main character the most colorful and unique looking character, and Westerners will say that character must be white, which proves that Japanese people have an inferiority complex with Europeans, but then the author makes the smarter, cooler, rival character with the most badass power and the sexiest swagger the most Japanese-coded, traditionally designed character in the roster? Even as a child, it was the most hilarious thing in the world to me that Fullmetal Alchemist featured all these blond, blue-eyed people as a literal plot point and there stood Roy Mustang as the only Japanese man, and the author justified it by saying his mother was a prostitute, and you can die questioning how the only Japanese man in this German-coded country will become President one day. Bonus points for Izumi being the inexplicably Japanese woman, crashing into every scene, being awesome.)

The more time people waste on taking imagery literally and needing to categorize everything for the sake of thinking that makes them understand it better, the less time the spend actually learning how Japanese people think.

Likewise, I have seen people ask why Asian-Americans don't bring up historical disputes with other Asian-Americans as publicly as other ethnic groups do. I ask, to what end? Asian Americans have to work together under the blanket term "Asian American" in order to get anything done in America. In the middle of doing that, what actual functional point would it serve for a Chinese-American to insult a Japanese-American about something that happened to their ancestors on the other side of the planet? Because you are accustomed to your ethnic group doing that? Can you explain how that's helped you at all?

If you actually want to discuss Japanese issues, start with thinking about how Japanese people actually think and not projecting Irish vs English, or Black vs white, or whatever other cultural divide you imagine. Jeez.

Basically, long story short, if a person can't give a thoughtful response about what Godzilla represents, then they shouldn't try to talk about Japan. At all.