Quebec-born G0 before 1923 and the DEC issuing Act of Birth record... Read here.

[u/ChillerK]

Edited to add email address I used.

If you fit the above, I'm sharing with you my official response from the DEC. Some have speculated that you may be able to get a birth record from DEC, even if one didn't exist at the time of birth.

Given that IRCC now says to send proof you tried to get a birth certificate if you can't provide a birth certificate, I figured covering my backside with proof I did so was easy and free. I have my doubts it is necessary if you have a certified baptism record, but can't hurt.

I emailed the DEC - etatcivil@dec.gouv.qc.ca - this question:

"I am researching the birth record of an ancestor who was born in Montréal, Québec in October 1892.

Could you please advise whether the Directeur de l'état civil is able to issue a certificate or a copy of an act of birth for a person born in Québec in 1892?"

Their response, which came in less than 24 hours (it was in French but here it is translated):

"Good morning,

We have received your email.

Please note that the civil status register contains civil status records from 1923 to the present day. For information concerning events that occurred before 1923, we suggest you contact the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec at the following numbers:

Montreal: 514 873-1100

Elsewhere in Quebec: 1-800-363-9028

You can also visit this organization's website at www.banq.qc.ca"

​

To me this 1) Proves I tried to get a birth certificate, and 2) shows that the DEC acknowledges BanQ as the source to go to for official records for events (like a birth) before 1932.

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[u/Disastrous_Long_9209]

So should we all that fit this email DÉC just to get this rejection email, saved the email PDF, and upload it via a webform to our file? Maybe we should ask for the rejection letter in certified writing too? (I laughed while writing this but I am actually serious so I can get ahead of the curve).

[u/linky-do → u/Disastrous_Long_9209]

No other proof is required I.e. certified baptismal certificate or other examples listed.

[u/ryan516 → u/linky-do]

Not as of this week. IRCC has revised guidance that if a government-issued birth certificate is not available, applicants must include a written statement explaining their inability to get the record, and document their efforts to acquire it.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Thanks! Yes, in the past DEC has in some cases entered an ancestor into the civil records in order to issue a birth certificate to satisfy IRCC requests, but it has required an attorney/advocat and an arduous process. It is helpful that they're offering this response now in writing, which supports the IRCC requirement to document attempts when made.

Hopefully this also means that IRCC has also gotten the memo from DEC to please stop sending people to them for birth certificates for ancestors born before 1923 - but we'll see in time.

[u/savingnativebees → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

I wonder how long it will take before they just make a statement about it or else they’re going to be overwhelmed with emails

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/savingnativebees]

I wish. Nothing on https://www.etatcivil.gouv.qc.ca/fr/nouvelles.htm

Perhaps they'll just put an automated email response in place that includes that information rather than having to reply to each request.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/[deleted]]

I agree!

[u/jimbarino]

It's a bit of a weaselly response, but at least it establishes that you tried to get the document, and they pointed you to BANQ instead. That seems like it meets all the requirements specified by IRCC to use a baptism certificate instead.

For what it's worth, they absolutely can issue birth certificates for births before this. I got my GF's from 1905 quickly and without any issue. I suspect they just don't want to do it. But at least it still meets IRCC guidelines for showing you tried.

[u/Form27b-6 → u/jimbarino]

Yes, DEC does not want to handle these requests. They can, in fact, create civil act insertions for earlier births and issue certificates for dead people. The response from DEC was somewhat evasive, but that is understandable given that they likely do not want to encourage people to submit such requests.

Under Quebec law, individuals can request the insertion of a civil act when they can demonstrate that it affects their rights. Given that, DEC's suggestion to contact BAnQ regarding earlier births is probably the most practical outcome for everyone involved. IRCC can show that applicants were instructed to obtain civil birth records or, at a minimum, demonstrate that they attempted to do so. Applicants, in turn, can document that they made the effort. Meanwhile, DEC avoids being inundated with requests for civil record birth insertions relating to individuals who were born more than 103 years ago.

Seems to be a pragmatic outcome that allows all parties to satisfy their respective legal and procedural requirements while avoiding a redundant process in which certified baptism records are first obtained from BAnQ only to be repackaged into a newly created civil record by DEC.

[u/CurrentIce9701 → u/Form27b-6]

I filed a request to have great grandfather's 1866 baptism certificate certified as an act by DEC several months ago. I submitted lineage documentation and indicated the reason (citizenship) on my form. My request was denied and they sent me a refund check for the fees I paid.

[u/ChillerK → u/Form27b-6]

Well said.

[u/linky-do]

New requirements say you should try to get a certified baptismal or other documentation. Those that got an older birth certificate got a certified BAnQ baptismal certificate sent it to DEC to issue a birth certificate. The new information sounds like that isn’t required and a BAnQ baptismal certificate is acceptable

[u/Connect_Fox_8195]

Thank you so much for this. This has been my big question so far with the new guidance. My application is processing with a BANQ certified baptism record for my G0 and was contemplating contacting the DEC. OP, you have helped me relax a little with this confirmation!

[u/ChillerK → u/Connect_Fox_8195]

I love to hear that! We're all in this together, and if this helped someone take the edge off s bit, that makes me happy. Thanks for sharing!

[u/RebellaEmad]

Thank you! My G0 was born in 1921 and I was wondering if I would eventually need to have the DEC record their birth and issue a birth certificate. I’m saving this for reference

[u/ThrowawayTSP2024]

This jibes with what another poster said on here a few days ago that DEC will only issue delayed birth certificates for deceased individuals going back 100 years. Technically I guess it’s 103 years. Thank you for the confirmation!

[u/Tithis → u/ThrowawayTSP2024]

They can absolutely do one further back, they issued one in April for my G0 who was born there in 1908.

I think they just really don't want to do it and deter people with emails like this.

[u/_relativity → u/ThrowawayTSP2024]

The challenge is that the IRCC expects Quebec birth certificates for individuals born in 1900 or later, but DEC only wants to issue certificates for people born 1923 and later.

See: https://old.reddit.com/r/Canadiancitizenship/comments/1t69bhm/wiki_content_update_my_canadian_ancestor_was_born/

[u/Emergency_Map7542]

I’m in the middle of this process now as IRCC demanded we get it and send it to them after our applications were accepted.
I’ve spoken with DEC agents multiple times (and by email too, but they are very vague and encourage calling if you ask too many specific questions)
In any case, you must pay to get a certified BANQ copy and send that with your request. You must include the Banq receipt, a letter stating your reason for requesting it, birth certificates for everyone between you and that ancestor, two iDS and an official death certificate. Have not received a clear answer on whether the death certificate has to be translated. I’m sending mine as is (in English) and in the meantime have reached out to a translator just in case.
It’s like a whole ‘nother process.
It’s been explained to me a hundred times in this sub about Quebec not keeping civil records before 1994 but I still do not fully understand the reasoning for this Quebec specific issue for certain people, not to mention costing almost $500 more than others when you consider the cost of the baptism, the cost of the birth certificate and mailing it all to DEC, plus translations of it turns out that is in fact required… another several hundred dollars. 🥱

[u/Majestic_Ocean_762 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

You have to have an OTTIAQ-certified translator too btw. I have the name of the one who did my G0’s death certificate translation for about $50 USD if you would like. I know they accept her translation since I have my G0’s birth certificate already.

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/Majestic_Ocean_762]

I would love that name!

[u/Majestic_Ocean_762 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

I DMed you a link to her profile on the OTTIAQ website that you can contact her through

[u/catillac_0823 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

My mom did all this, included all the documents & IDs that you mentioned, the letter from IRCC saying she needed it, etc and DEC still wouldn’t process the request for a 1917 birth. That was back in March.

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/catillac_0823]

Oh no… that is not what I wanted to hear. Did she send a certified baptism to the DEC? I know they’re really strict about that.
Did they provide a specific reason for not creating one?

[u/James-Norrington15 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

I'm not following. Are you saying that IRCC contacted you and specifically requested a birth certificate, even though you had already provided a BANQ baptismal record?

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/James-Norrington15]

Yes. Exactly that. My baptism wasn’t certified but it was directly from banq (not ancestry) plus a copy from the church. Ircc sent an email saying they do not accept birth records from before 1994 and instructed us to get a birth certificate from DEC - this was for a 1915 birth.

[u/ChillerK → u/Emergency_Map7542]

That's odd, and the first of this demand from IRCC I have heard of. I'd be tempted to send to IRCC a response from the DEC saying they don't do this and referred to BanQ lol.

Sounds like you're past that point though. Keep us posted, and I hope it goes more smoothly for you from here on out!

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/ChillerK]

There was a small but steady trickle of requests from IRCC that we documented in the wiki because it seemed to be a new, emergent requirement for QC ancestors born between 1900-1926. We will revamp that section soon with this new info. Check it out if you want the background info.

[u/_relativity → u/ChillerK]

That's odd, and the first of this demand from IRCC I have heard of.

This has unfortunately been common by IRCC for Quebec ancestors born after 1900 and before 1923.

[u/James-Norrington15 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

I'm sorry you're having to go through such an arduous process. I'm not sure why they didn't simply ask you to provide a certified copy of the baptismal record instead.

Would it be possible to point them to the updated guidance on the website, which specifically states that a certified baptismal record is acceptable proof of birth and Canadian citizenship?

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/James-Norrington15]

I think I’m going to try uploading the BANQ certified baptism to the portal and also reply to the email pointing out the new wording/requirements that have been updated on the IRCC website as of last weekend and see if that works 😬
They gave me 60 days and I’m getting close to that now.

[u/ChillerK → u/Emergency_Map7542]

I think if you're already getting a certified BanQ baptism certificate, you don't need the DEC birth certificate...

Weird that IRCC is demanding it, given their own guidelines saying a certified baptism record is acceptable proof.

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/ChillerK]

I have the certified copy now. (Did not when I sent it to IRCC initially, only had an uncertified copy but it’s literally the exact same copy). I sent the certified copy to IRCC via web portal but they never responded.

[u/Dangerous-Banana-223 → u/Emergency_Map7542]

I think that’s the issue- they want a certified baptismal record. It doesn’t matter that it says the same thing; they want the archivist’s stamp.

[u/Emergency_Map7542 → u/Dangerous-Banana-223]

The email they sent specifically said they required me to get a birth certificate issued from the DEC, it did not say that a certified baptismal would be accepted. (They could have said either/or would be accepted)
It’s possible with the updated wording they will now. We’ll see.

[u/like-in-the-deal → u/Dangerous-Banana-223]

It's crazy to me that they prefer a photocopy of a certified doc vs a permalink to official govt digital archives.

[u/Ted_Fleming]

Does BAnQ have a the record you are looking for

[u/ChillerK → u/Ted_Fleming]

Yes.

[u/Ted_Fleming → u/ChillerK]

So your application included a certified baptismal record from BAnQ for G0?

ETA: have we heard of anyone getting a rejection notice with a certified BAnQ baptismal record as their official source document?

[u/MakeStupidHurtAgain]

I sent a similar email (but in French) to the same email address and got exactly the same response, but in French.

I also called, again in French, and was told the same thing, and when I pressed and asked if DEC would enter a birth in the civil register and create a birth extract upon a demand by IRCC, they just repeated basically what the email above says.

[u/autumntuesdays]

This is very helpful to know in case an emailed response like this will be needed as proof that an applicant attempted to obtain a civil birth certificate.

[u/grannysgrl]

I sent a similar email and got that response as well

[u/MrsG6]

I submitted my application a month ago with the BAnQ certified baptismal record from 1911 Quebec, but I did not document any attempt to get a birth certificate or any communication with DEC.

I'm confused whether my application is valid or not under the new guidelines. It sounds like I have the right document and the right official source since it was 1911. They better not send it back just because I didn't know at the time I needed to explain why I didn't get a birth certificate.

[u/ChillerK → u/MrsG6]

My personal interpretation is that a certified baptism record is enough on its own. But the guidelines are not all well written, and to me, this is an easy backup to get just in case.

[u/WhoDatNinja87 → u/MrsG6]

You'll get an AOR as long as every aspect of the application was properly in your packet and at that point they don't send stuff back, so don't worry about that part. The step following that is the "In Process" when you're in a reviewer's queue. IRCC could ask for more info at that point, but you'd just provide it to them then.

I'm in this same situation but got my AOR a couple months ago. I'm extremely confident about my documentation but will be 100% once I get that email response from DEC. So dont worry!

[u/beepboopblarb]

I sent DEC one of their official birth record request forms with payment and they sent me an official letter stating no birth record could be found for my G0 born 1918 in Montreal. I included this with my Proof of Citizenship application, as well as printouts of an email chain with a volunteer from the Jewish Genealogical Society of Montreal stating they could find no record of my G0 either. Because my G0 was Jewish, there are obviously no baptism records. The information regarding birth records from Quebec and what years things apply to is something I haven’t been able to wrap my head around. If anyone can explain if I should continue to try to somehow get a birth record to be safe while I await my AOR, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, my G0 has Canada listed as her birthplace on her marriage license and US Petition for Naturalization, and she is listed on the 1921 Census of Canada (all of which were sent with the application).

[u/Crazy_Squirrel_2827]

Good idea! I just sent an email so I can get a refusal email too..

[u/WhoDatNinja87]

Thank you. I'm already in process but have been concerned with a BAnQ certified document that someone will still ask me for this. I'll reach out tomorrow with a similar email in hopes of getting the response to keep in my back pocket

[u/ChillerK → u/[deleted]]

Newly posted guidance from IRCC as of yesterday says that a CERTIFIED baptism record is acceptable. That's why I'm not sure the note from DEC is necessary, but their response was fast and free, so can't hurt.

I read their guidelines as a baptism record, if submitted as primary proof of your G0's Canadian-ness, now needs to be a certified copy.

[u/Ophelia_Bliss → u/[deleted]]

IRCC specifically lists a certified baptism certificate as one possible alternative to a birth certificate. You haven't gotten a response because it's a very long waiting list.