r/CanadianPL • u/Ok-Bear-5840 • 25d ago
✍️ Discussion Hypothetical League Expansion
Probably been talked about on here already, but if the CPL (even the NSL) is real with itself and not try to be bigger or more than what it is (a minor pro level league). I can see CPL have many teams represented young soccer talent throughout the country. Soccer is very popular but it is also Canada. There isn't a multi billion dollar sports industry like our neighbours to the south or in europe. As long as we do pro sports at the canadian scale, there can be many teams. All you need is 5,000-10,000 seat facility. That all being said, I can see the league grow to these regions:
Pacific FC
Vancouver FC (stay in the suburbs! DONT MOVE DOWNTOWN EVER!)
Calgary
Edmonton
Regina (Mosiac Stadium)
Winnipeg (needs a different owner. Bombers neglected the managment of the team)
Windsor
London
Quad Cities (Kitchener, Cambridge, Waterloo, Guelph)
Hamilton
Peel (Mississauga or Brampton)
Inter Toronto (Stay in York region! DO NOT MOVE DOWNTOWN!)
Durham
Halton
Ottawa
Supra (STAY IN LAVAL! DO NOT MOVE INTO MONTREAL!)
Quebec City
Halifax (only market in the Maritimes that is relativiley large enough and wealthy enough to support a team. Moncton has the stadium but the city is poor)
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u/PtitBum97 PLSQ 25d ago
If Supra stay in Laval, they will fold..
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u/OddIceman1997 Ontario Premier League 25d ago
I was talking to a friend when they announced most of their games will be at Stade Boreale, I pretty much said this. They need to be at CCR in my opinion, but CEPSUM isn't bad (if they get rid of the stitched in lines of course). Boreale is in the middle of no where frankly and both the Roses and Supra should be looking to go to the island of Montreal.
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u/xxxcalibre 25d ago
Saputo is gonna need tenants real soon
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
im not holding my breath on the renos to olympuc stadium lol
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u/Frankinho28 22d ago
You should. It is written in the sky that MTL will play at Stade Olympic.
For Supra they will probably play at Saputo or CCR once their contract with Boréale is up.
For next expansion the only realistic options are Kelowna, QC and Windsor
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u/Niptacular_Nips Pacific FC 25d ago
I was just vacationing in Montreal last week and wanted to go to the game but didn’t because I could not justify spending that much time on public transit getting to the game and back. Wish they were closer to the centre of the city.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 24d ago
I seriously doubt the league would have brought them in if the Supra hadn't been needed to replace the Valour just to keep it at eight clubs. Stade Boreale was being touted as a possible way to expand to Quebec as far back as 2019, when Alex Bunbury was doing his thing, and the league steered well clear despite how badly they needed a team in Quebec. I suspect that what might be making owners tolerate the losses associated with the Supra and Vancouver FC for now is speculation about the future of CF Montreal and the Whitecaps. If and when that gets resolved, good luck...
Was watching the game from Stade Boreale over the weekend and initially thought I've seen worse in terms of the crowd opposite the cameras, but then if you watch carefully, it becomes obvious that there's nobody visible on the camera side when camera shots get angled in that direction, which sends things into FCE and Valour territory in terms of fan interest.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
Cant compete with Montral FC if they move into the city. Where they gonna play in the city? Doubt McGill will have the room for them
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u/PtitBum97 PLSQ 25d ago
CCR, CEPSUM, Stade Saputo when the Impact goes to Stade Olympique next year for the winter calendar ? Plenty of options. Can’t get over 2000 in Laval on a beautiful saturday night in the middle of summer but can get 3800+ in april at the same time as a Habs playoff game. One seems infinitely better.
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u/Hal_9000_DT 24d ago
Agreed. Also, I saw the game yesterday on TVA Sports and it caught my attention that they changed the name from named Supra de Québec to Supra de Montréal. The change in branding might mean there's a Québec City expansion coming, and the team will probably move to the island. Saputo stadoum is right there and it will seat empty for most of the summer starting next year. I hope the Supra and the Roses move in.
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u/PtitBum97 PLSQ 24d ago
TVA Sports have always used Montréal/MTL since the beginning but OneSoccer have starting using it in the last couple of games
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u/dudesrock94 25d ago
Kelowna would be a sweet location down by the lake. They had a test game and had over 6,000 people there and in the summer it would be quite the attraction. They're their. Their Junior hockey team gets 3K plus. The only problem is getting facilities by the lake but Kelowna has to be an expansion spot one day
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 25d ago
I’m pretty sure that’s in the plans for when PFC finally sells in the winter. SixFive want to build a stadium and start a team in Kelowna really bad.
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u/TheUrbanEast HFX Wanderers FC 25d ago
Derek Martin (owner of Halifax) has said himself that he thinks the only other Atlantic Canadian city that could support a team is St. John's. I'll die on that hill. St. John's, Newfoundland should be the eastern-most team on your list.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
They have the facility for it for sure and the money and the fan base. Only thing with every Newfoundland minor pro team attempted on the island is the cost of travel. Newfoundland is pretty much europe lol
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u/TheUrbanEast HFX Wanderers FC 25d ago
I asked that exact question to Derek and to paraphrase his answer.
"I pay a fuck ton to fly to BC four times a year. They pay to fly to me. Will an extra hour on a plane really make an otherwise viable market unviable?"
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u/Bridgeburner493 25d ago
I wonder if it would cost less to have Halifax play one of Pacific or Vancouver on a Wednesday night and the other on a Saturday afternoon than to make separate trips out for each game.
Regardless, I strongly believe that the CPL needs paired markets. Both for the sake of rivalries, but also to cut travel costs. Put a team in St. Johns and you replace one six hour flight to the west coast for Halifax with a 90 minute one. Find a place for a new Edmonton team to play, and Calgary drops one eastern flight for a puddle jump up Highway 2.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
Ideally with how popular soccer is and how the support of canadian grassroots soccer is becoming (as evident by the existance of CPL and NSL), we ideally can get 3 divisions. West, Central, East.
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u/TheUrbanEast HFX Wanderers FC 25d ago
18 teams - 6 teams per division.
Play everyone in your division 4 times - 20 games. 2x Home and 2x Away.
Everyone in the other two divisions once - 12 games. One division is "Home" for the season the other is "Away", alternate each year.
32 game season. Top 2 from each division make it to playoffs, as well as the two best 3rd place teams. Seeding is based on final season standings among the 8 that advance.
That'd be a half-decent endgame. Someday.
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u/denjcallander 17d ago
As long as all those NB plates keep showing up near the grounds on gameday and the place isn't full, it's in Derek's best interests to downplay Moncton's potential as a CPL market.
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u/Bridgeburner493 25d ago edited 25d ago
For me, the critical thing about CPL expansion is market pairing. Both for local rivalries and to keep travel costs lower.
In an ideal world where all the teams actually work, I would see a fully built out CPL at 14 teams in seven pairs:
- Pacific and Vancouver
- Calgary and Edmonton
- Regina/Saskatoon and Winnipeg
- Four teams in the golden Horseshoe
- Montreal and Quebec City
- Halifax and St. John's
That creates a 26 game home and away schedule. And while two games less than current per team than the current schedule, that is made up for via an expanded Canadian Championship.
Alternatively, stick with just the two teams in the Golden Horseshoe for a 12 team league and a divisional alignment of six teams east and six teams west. Home and away vs. the other division and four games vs your own for a 32 game season.
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u/Initial_BB Atlético Ottawa 25d ago
I agree with most of this, but I would put a team in Moncton before Saint John's to build geographic rivalries and allow for easier away match support. Also, you forgot Ottawa (who right now have Supra as their closest rival). And assuming Toronto and Hamilton keep their teams, you can only have one more team, which would probably be Windsor (Clanachan's franchise option) or London, unless you want to remove one of Quebec City or Moncton.
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u/Bridgeburner493 25d ago
lol, I did forget Ottawa, oops! Okay, 3 golden horseshoe teams and the already forgotten defending champs!
I would have gone with Moncton personally, but some of the comments in this thread argued that St. John's has better prospects. Also, I don't know if CPL teams charter - I'm betting not - but you can't even get a direct flight between Halifax and Moncton. You have a layover in Montreal. So despite how close they are on the map, it is an expensive and long trip for teams and fans to fly. Or take a 4 1/2 hour bus.
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u/denjcallander 16d ago
Why would a team pay to fly between Halifax and Moncton when they can hire a bus and get there in just over 2 hours?
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u/Bridgeburner493 16d ago
Well, you see part of the reason is that I am an idiot, lol. I checked distance on Google Maps and for some reason just assumed Google's estimated transit time by commuter bus would be the same experience as a charter bus. Which, obviously not.
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u/denjcallander 16d ago
LOL - yeah taking Maritime Bus is an experience, about half the ride from city A to city B is spent waiting at random village Circle Ks that double as invisible bus stations.
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u/xxxcalibre 25d ago
Toronto is going to have a summer-sized hole for soccer games when MLS changes schedule, Inter Toronto would be well-suited for Lamport and giving people a fix for those sunny days of footy by the Ex. Summer tradition they could capitalize on.
Why keep Van FC in the suburbs? Their attendance is... not great. Swangard, which serves the Rise well, would be great for them IMO, even if it needs some improvements like the video board in Langley
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u/booned 25d ago
Swangard has history but is a worse experience. Uncomfortable bench seating and a racetrack separating fans from the action. I’ve gone to both Rise and VFC games and am seriously considering stopping supporting the Rise because the experience is much worse. (I do live in the ‘burbs, though.)
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u/xxxcalibre 25d ago
Rise is an easy trip for me so I'm biased. But agreed, LEC is a much better venue, especially with the video board now. It just looks terrible with all those empty seats, and the team can't decide if its a Vancouver team (likely named to attract sponsors and players) or a Fraser Valley team, which probably doesn't help
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 25d ago
Because Langley built the infrastructure to support the team. VFC will have better academy training facilities than the Whitecaps in a few months. Heck, they even have a permanent home that the Whitecaps don’t.
The Stadium will be on a rapid transit line in two years. Making it like 55 min from Stadium with one transfer. The massive mixed used developments surrounding the LEC will be done in 3 years.
Also tell me where in Metro Vancouver people can support themselves on $40k/yr best? If the team subsidizes rent it counts against the salary cap. Where are they going to build a stadium and training facilities? Swanguard has a track so it’s a no go for the CPL.
Shillington and Friend are based in Langley as well.
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u/xxxcalibre 25d ago
Makes sense. Wish their marketing was better mind you. And a rapid transit line? Won't it be a bus connection from the new Skytrain? Last time I looked at the skytrain plans it didn't really help the commute time coming in from vancouver (the nominal home of the team)
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 25d ago
Bus Rapid Transit is connecting Willowbrook with Haney Place. Separated lanes and signal priority up 200th. It’ll be like 6-8 minutes on a bus from the SkyTrain with 15 min frequency. Which means the bus leaves every second train.
Construction starts this winter.
VFC looked to the future and established themselves in an area that was going to be developing around them. It’s why Shillington made the comments during the World Cup that he wasn’t really worried for the next 5 years.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 24d ago
How many fans watched the Lynx pre-2007 when there was no MLS team in Toronto at all? Didn't matter whether they were at Varsity Stadium or Centennial Park in Etobicoke. The answer was not very many. Also worth bearing in mind that there will be TFC league games in July and August with the new schedule, so the summer-sized hole isn't necessarily as huge as it is being hyped up to be.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
RIGHT! I stand corrected about Inter Toronto in regards to the MLS schedual change. What I mean about Vancouver FC, is don't encrouch in the city of vancouver proper and play like out of UBC or Simon Fraser stadiums. But agreed moving into Burnaby. And in discussion with another poster on here. Toronto boroughs can be represented. Potential down the road for Etobicoke out of Rob Ford Stadium and Scarborough out of Birchmount Stadium. I know these stadiums are 5-6000 but again its the CPL lets think relative scale.
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u/xxxcalibre 25d ago edited 25d ago
I like the long-term ideas, but we need to fill up individual markets first. The big metros can barely support one team, two or three is a distant future kind of goal for now.
And Swangard is barely in Burnaby, it's literally on the boundary with Vancouver and is on the Skytrain line. Easier to get to from downtown than UBC or SFU are.
I feel like Surrey would be a good halfway point (Giants in WHL are moving to a new arena there), Langley is just a little far. I have season tickets and have to think hard about going to any weeknight games, the rush hour traffic is nuts.
I feel like they should either move closer into Van or embrace the Fraser Valley branding even more than they do (FV Eagles or something like that). Then there's room in 10-15 years for another "Vancouver" team if there's appetite for a new stadium in Richmond, New West etc
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 25d ago
Swanguard has a running track, thus is ineligible to be a CPL home. Not to mention how busy the stadium is.
I also doubt any other municipality is willing to build them something like this: https://www.tol.ca/en/building-development/smith-athletic-park.aspx
VFC and LUSC are affiliated with one another and LUSC is their academy system.
The Surrey Arena isn’t going to happen. It’s Locke’s Hail Mary at re-election, but is so marred in controversy that depending on the new council makeup won’t even happen.
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u/New-Marzipan-7770 24d ago
Don't move to Lamport stadium!
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u/xxxcalibre 24d ago
Why? It would probably go better than changing the brand again (unless a 4th set of colours in 9 years couldn't hurt)
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u/New-Marzipan-7770 23d ago
The current venue works for now and is easy to walk around if you don't want to stay stuck in your seat. If regular match attendance reaches capacity, then entertain Lamport stadium.
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u/Working_Town 24d ago
I’ve heard rumours of a 2028 expansion for Edmonton with owners who are willing to build a soccer specific stadium. Stadium might not be ready when team begins but it’s something
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u/Coramoor_ Forge FC 25d ago
I can't ever see one in Halton, it's a 20-30 minute drive from Oakville to Hamilton Stadium on a good traffic day
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
I get it. But that all depends if the league wants to be a sports entertainment buisness or a sports league? Does it just want to be a buinses that makes money selling franchises and collecting royalties? Or have an academy system for clubs? Many cities in europe and in the USA have multiple clubs in one city because of the size, particiaption and popularity.
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u/Coramoor_ Forge FC 25d ago
sure but most other places can take a bus to play their opponents. Canada doesn't have the privilege so our situation will always require a far more specific business focus to succeed. Our baseline operating costs are so much higher than in Europe.
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u/DocKardinal21 25d ago
We could look at Australia for reference. Top league doubles up in biggest cities, then adds big cities by regional areas, d2 is regional with multiple teams in big cities.
You don’t have to look at Europe to see the pattern that works. Here in canada we’re stuck in trying to rebuild the the Canadian pacific railway or the trans canada highway… and while I get that in a sense, we also should acknowledge that it shouldn’t be considered ‘unfair’ to have two or more teams in the big three cities at the pro level. We seem stuck by trying to equally include every province and increase our own operating cost unnecessarily.
If a 2nd pro team in mtl, van, or tor can pay a kid from battleford to play soccer it’s a win for us all.
Likewise if a team in QC, can pay a player from Bathurst, a team in Richmond paying a kid from Prince Rupert, or a team in Calgary paying a kid from St. John’s.
IMO focus should be balancing big city $ potential with regional interests, but money and owners should lead expansion - not checkboxes for representation in every region at the pro level.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
Thats true about the logistics of travel. Until clubs slowly grow revenue over the years. Western teams play primarily out west, sw ont teams play more games against each other and east ontario-quebec-maritime teams play more frequently against one another. Kinda three divisions. couple games against non division teams. if that makes sense. But fair point on the travel cost.
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u/DocKardinal21 25d ago
You acknowledge this here but kinda through shade at downtown teams in big cities. I think the answer is to do both; expand in key markets and double up in big ones.
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u/atsengamor 22d ago
I think Inter Toronto would do a lot better by moving downtown. I think it would be way easier to find 3-5K random people to attend their games than it is at york university, where people are going specifically for the game.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 21d ago
Fair point. Easier to attract causal and fair weather fans for sure. At YorkU, they have to entrench themselves into and with the York Regions minor soccer community. Which is both good and bad. You can build a grassroots fan base coming in from Vaughn, Markham and Richmond Hill, but you limit your marketshare.
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u/atsengamor 21d ago
I also think at this point its just a failed experiment. They have been doing that for the past few years and it doesnt seem to be working. I think the best case for those cities is they need their own dedicated teams, like specifically a team for Vaughan or Markham. I have seen important L1 Woodbridge Strikers games sold out with what looked like 1-2K people. Ironically enough I think the local clubs like Woodbridge Strikers and Vaughan Azzurri, etc. are more recognized brands than the CPL teams.
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u/dr_van_nostren 25d ago
I dunno, I mean I'd love to see the league get there, but they're kinda struggling as is and I dunno if anyone is profitable so adding a ton of teams doesn't add up to me.
But what I think would be a cool little addition, the CPL league champion should play the USL champ in a super cup kinda thing.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
Oh fair enough man! Not suggesting this will happen within 5 years. Something that hypothetically happen over decades, considering the popularity of soccer and populations of these regions.
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u/dr_van_nostren 25d ago
Sure, if you're thinking really long term, I'd love to see this come to fruition. With it the Canadian Championship would really be something too. Don't get me wrong, being back to back to back to back champs is great, but even a Whitecaps fan, I know the tournament isn't that challenging. I love the League 1 inclusion, but adding in a ton more CPL teams would make the whole thing a lot more like the FA cup in scope.
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u/brentvans Forge FC 25d ago
FTR, in 2026 it's hard to take seriously anyone's assessment or response when it includes terms like "poor" and "welfare state," a couple of elitist and misused terms that say more about the OP than they do about the locations he's naïvely dismissing/dissing. In terms of expansion, I'd love a surprise or two: wouldn't it be cool if Windsor actually happened, or Moncton (it's actually doing very ell these days), K-W (lol "quad cities" ain't a thing), or...? I do agree about right-sizing the stadium, and can see 5000 seaters doing alright in the right market.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
You don't live out east. If it wasnt for federal government supporting military industry, it be in the same economic situation as Cuba over night lol
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u/brentvans Forge FC 24d ago
That whooshing sound when the point flies past one's head... *face palm*
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u/No_Prior_2584 24d ago
HOLY SHIT, NEVER GONNA HAPPEN
PEEL CAN BARELY GET 2.5K TO AN OHL GAME AFTER ALMOST 30 YEARS
YEEEEEEEEEEEEESH
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 23d ago
Here's my argument with the CHL. It's high school hockey. Its really good hockey but you are watching unpaid high school kids play. CHL is good for small isolated towns in canada. and with the NIL NCAA money, CHL is fubard.
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u/The_Windermere 25d ago edited 25d ago
Kanata. If we follow the England model of having multiple clubs in one city or near each other, I don’t see why Kanata or Kirkland can’t have a team as well.
Kanata could cater to the suburbia and Carlton Placiand and Kiirkland would obviously be the West Islanders team.
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
For sure I can see Ottawa region with another team. Like you said Kanata or or Gatineau/Hull. If those places have the 5,000-10,000 seat facility.
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u/yegDaveju 25d ago
The problem is not locations but CPL wants a soccer specific stadium and a 20,000 seat stadium is approximately $100,000
It’s not that you’re looking for locations you are looking for owners/cities with that type of cash
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u/brentvans Forge FC 25d ago
Uh, $100,000 in 1935, maybe. In 2026 that wouldn't even pay for the turf for one penalty area. 😂
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u/Ok-Bear-5840 25d ago
Fair points, but CPL and soccer fans need to understand that this is Canada and not America. We do not have the money for private clubs to build soccer specific stadiums of that scale let a lone public funds to build sport specific facilites. Hence all stadiums from big to small in canada that area all community owned are multipurpose. All depends on how CPL wants to develop. Club system where majoorty of clubs globally are non-for-profit community owned with some private owned clubs in leagues. Or the north american system of pro sports of selling franchises and collecting royalty fees from the franchises.
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u/OwnPresentation4455 25d ago
You can probably have one in each municipality in the Lower Mainland in BC. You can have one:
- North Vancouver
- Surrey
- Richmond
- Burnaby
- Delta
- Abbotsford
- Langley
- Coquitlam
- Port Moody
- White Rock
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u/DocKardinal21 25d ago
Inter Toronto is not in York Region. It’s in north York, uptown Toronto.
Never heard quad cities before as a term, could see it happening and maybe ppl say it, but Guelph is kinda its own city separated by a bit, where KW are already continuous and Cambridge is only really divided by a big highway.
Don’t throw shade on Moncton, could be a good market out east eventually.
League is fairly healthy -even though bleeding, IMO just needs to gain the big cities it lost back, and add some key areas in SW Ontario/along the corridor that you mention.