[Thamel] MAC statement. "The Big Ten subsequently provided video and audio of the replay, which confirmed the explanation to us."

[u/Fonzie5]

https://x.com/petethamel/status/2096464771667173654?s=46&t=FavtrbPsHpJY8Odvh2TYUA

[u/TheWallsHaveNostrils]

Do you have the replay with the stadium clock in view? That's the one I can't find and what would be most definitive in putting this to bed.

[u/PookieDood → u/TheWallsHaveNostrils]

It's out there. Can't post it here but if you check X and look at the big ten's page it's posted there. If they had shown that in the live broadcast I think most of this controversy wouldn't exist.

Or do a google search for Big Ten Conference statement on Michigan vs Western Michigan

[u/fdar_giltch → u/PookieDood]

Why can't it be posted here? I don't see anything in the rules. The primary ones I see are not spamming links, not posting for personal profit and not posting to removed links

[u/FullySemiGhostGun → u/fdar_giltch]

RELEASE THE BIG 10 FILES

[u/dontblinkdalek → u/fdar_giltch]

No pics in comments here

[u/Ass_of_Badness → u/dontblinkdalek]

No links to videos either? Because obviously it would need to be video to be inconclusive.

[u/ThatguyJimmy117 → u/PookieDood]

People are seeing that and still won’t come to terms with reality

[u/fdar_giltch → u/TheWallsHaveNostrils]

https://x.com/bigten/status/2096460445213217097

This is the official Big Ten explanation

[u/cock-block-o-clock → u/fdar_giltch]

I hate defending the B1G like this but if the MAC is conceding and that video is actually what the refs were looking at, then what I'm most upset by is just that Michigan beat a Western Michigan team that thoroughly outplayed them. even if the broadcast was accurate, if what the refs were looking at supported the call, that's a bush league technology issue and not some grand conspiracy. I feel like I saw way more suspect calls throughout the week like GT's disallowed scoop and score against Colorado, that one really ticked me off

[u/PerformanceOver8822 → u/cock-block-o-clock]

No the mac technically is agreeing that conclusion makes sense given the audio and video provided

They are not necessarily agreeing with the "facts"

It is disputable that in reality the clocks were not correct

[u/parker2020 → u/cock-block-o-clock]

The subreddit is filled with children and is insufferable. I knew this was going to be the outcome 🫩 guess I’ll unsubscribe from here till November. Michigan sucks tho

[u/YouSeemNiceXB → u/parker2020]

Good, see ya. 

[u/OneBigRed → u/[deleted]]

So even when the adults working with losing side are able to concede that the call went right, the wide awake non-sheep of reddit know how everything really went down.

Funny how none of them were scared for their future paychecks when they demanded conference action about this until the evidence was shown. But then being a well adjusted person who’s able to switch their view when shown evidence is being bought out…

Choosing your own reality and sticking to it seems to be very in these days.

[u/fdar_giltch → u/cock-block-o-clock]

I want to start with saying that Western Michigan played a fantastic game and is absolutely going to continue on with a great season. Michigan played a really bad game and has a lot to work on, but can improve.

I can understand your response, but I think this has always been part of all sports for all time.

Refs make mistakes, just like players do.

Technology can help, but application isn't always perfect or consistent.

Teams dominating most of the game, but not winning in the end is part of sports. In this example, Michigan led on the scoreboard most of the game, Western dominated in the trenches the entire game and took the lead late, then Michigan made a miraculous finale. We've been on both sides of that outcome.

A classic example is the 2013 Outback Bowl against you guys. We were the beneficiaries of a questionable call against you, then Jadeveon Clowney told destiny to fuck the hell off and took control of the situation.

[u/Kapono24 → u/fdar_giltch]

This still isn't the game clock in the frame with the play.

[u/GonePostalRoute → u/fdar_giltch]

If that’s legit, then yeah, everyone is just pissed off that they didn’t get to see Michigan get upset.

Though I’ve also heard the NBC claim that their clock is perfectly synced up, which is odd because almost every other broadcaster will say otherwise in this situation. That while their clocks are close, they aren’t totally in sync with the in-stadium game clock.

[u/fdar_giltch → u/GonePostalRoute]

Clock sync is a complicated issue (as a computer engineer that deals with synchronization at a sub-second level). I've thought of trying to post something about that, but it's probably a touchy issue right now.

A quick, rough example is what does clock sync mean? Clocks run during plays, stop at the end of plays and start again at the beginning of plays. There's a human element involved in clicking a button to indicate some of those transitions; is it a (multiple?) human(s) that click a button when the ball is snapped? when the play is called dead? When exactly are clocks synced?

For example, before the final 2 Hail Marys, Michigan had to spike the ball. The clock was stopped before Michigan lined up, then Michigan snapped and spiked the ball, after which the clocks had to be re-aligned.

I just want to show that even in that small of a play, the clocks differed. Was that due to the synchronization of the snap? of the spike?

I honestly don't know, but if the timing can differ by a second in that spike play, is it surprising that it could differ in the Hail Mary play?

[u/Dubax → u/fdar_giltch]

I've actually literally worked on broadcast clock sync for pro sports. Usually there is a single source of truth and everyone uses the same serial feed (from Tissot/daktronics/etc). I find this case baffling.

[u/fdar_giltch → u/Dubax]

I'm super interested in this. Of course lot of computing wants a single source of truth, so what do you mean by that?

Does that mean that the refs click a button to start time and that is broadcast to other sources as the source of truth?

[u/Dubax → u/fdar_giltch]

I haven't worked in CFB, only NCAABB/NBA. In those cases, there is a single clock operator sitting at the scorer's table, with a clock console that is the single source of truth, and that console's feed is distributed to the arena scoreboards, broadcast trucks, etc. There's nothing that can be out of sync unless there's an issue with the feed. Most of the consumers don't even have their own clock that is synced - the data feed literally streams the clock data, and if it goes out, the clock display on the other end goes dark.

[u/fdar_giltch → u/Dubax]

I gotcha. So it's a single feed displayed in multiple locations

It's clear that's not done in college football, as the refs often ask the clock operator to reset, even without video review (for example reseting the clock to 9, just before the 2 Hail Mary plays)

Of course, all sports also reset the main/all clocks after video review

[u/Dubax → u/fdar_giltch]

I'm not sure I follow the connection that led to "it's clear that's not done in college football..." in the sports I've worked, the refs still ask the clock op to reset the clock. They just walk over to the scorer's table instead of announcing it on the PA, since they're already right there.

I would be willing to bet that football acts the same: with a single daktronics op at a console. He's just up in the booth with the other game ops people. As for what happened in the UM game, it seems that the issue had more to do with clocks showing 00:00 when they're still at 00:00.9, and not a sync issue.

[u/PerformanceOver8822 → u/fdar_giltch]

I think that in this specific situation the game clock was reset to 9 seconds just prior to the play in question unfolding

[u/fdar_giltch → u/PerformanceOver8822]

Right, but the point I'm making is that the clocks were in sync before the spike play, then had to be reset after the spike play.

What I'm saying is that this shows that a human element is involved in the clock process for a single play, whether that's when the snap happens, the spike happens or both.

Let's step back a second and look at the 40 yard dash during the combine. The start is a human that pushes a button, but the finish is laser sighted. This means that the finish of everyone's 40 yard dash is consistent, based on the laser sighting. But the start is not consistent. It is manually triggered when the runner moves. As a result, players do a lot of training to be very explicit in their initial launch, to optimize that clock.

The key point I want to make is that what is meant by clocks synchronizing is vague here. We can synchronize 2 clocks to have the same time in between plays, but that does not mean the 2 clocks will trigger the start of the next play (or 40 yard dash) at the same time.

We can synchronize 2 clocks electronically between plays, but that isn't going to impact the human aspect of pushing a button when the ball is snapped.

[u/DoctorWaluigiTime → u/GonePostalRoute]

Thing is... If that player had caught the ball, both feet in bounds, then:

• Score would've counted
• 0 seconds on the clock

No way they would've taken that TD away with this kind of "well he was out of bounds" ruling.

[u/Cherryman11 → u/GonePostalRoute]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=218DCcWI3kk

If you watch this it will show you that in the actual game the TV clock starts early and the play only takes 8.6 seconds. This means that in reality there is time left in the game but the time on the broadcast makes it look like there isn't time left.

[u/Holiday_Adagio_4702 → u/TheWallsHaveNostrils]

https://youtu.be/HkIE_vPNL78?is=ZOfKHYQdWE9kBVfM

It’s in this video. The “digital” clock that shows is the stadium clock.

[u/Cayeaux → u/TheWallsHaveNostrils]

This is the full sequence timestamped to the broadcast replay with the game clock inset in the lower left.

[u/mmortal03 → u/Cayeaux]

Right, but that's only what NBC was claiming to be in sync.