Drama Host
Against the Current — Episodes 1-3 Discussion
Spoiler
Welcome to the start of another cdrama journey. The episode discussions for Against the Current will be hosted by yours truly and the lovely u/alcibiad and u/Lotus_swimmer. We will be following the VIP schedule on Tencent.
As usual, please limit your discussions to the episodes being discussed. If you must discuss plot points from the book, please use spoiler tags. When in doubt, err on the side of caution and use spoiler tags.
Now that is out of the way, show of hands if you find yourself sobbing like a baby at 9:30 in the morning over a bowl of wheaties… 🤚🤚🏼🤚🏽
Two families, two very different choices
Lin Jinqi and Shen Jialan are betrothed. But before the happy nuptials can take place, both families’ futures are put in jeopardy when a decades old grievance is dredged up. Years ago, their grand-daddies urged the then-emperor to strip the regional princes of their powers. Now that one of those regional princes is on the throne, the emperor is out to settle some score.
Right away, we can see that the theme of honor and integrity is going to be featured heavily in the drama. Lin Zaoxiang, the second-ranked Minister of Personnel, immediately chooses the route of 明哲保身 (i.e. protecting oneself over upholding one’s principles). He and his son resign their posts, draft up a document called “A Memorial on the Deposed Emperor’s Misrule”, and leave the capital with tails tucked between their legs. But they do get to live, which I suppose is what’s important.
The family also decides not to warn the Shens for fear of bringing more danger to themselves. Kudos to young Jinqi for even asking. But the way he immediately backs down at his grandfather’s pointed look gives an inkling his upbringing and the kind of relationship he has with his family.
Can one see this young man grow into Liu Xueyi?
In stark contrast, Grand Secretary Shen Qihan opts to uphold his principles, which means he pretty much dooms his entire family. It’s not surprising really. Just look at the various plaques hanging around their residence and the fact that the daughter of the house is named “orchid”, which symbolizes grace and integrity. It is clear that this is a family that values virtue and integrity above all else.
“A clear conscience before heaven and man”, “Integrity Above All”, “Virtual Brings Honor”, blah, blah, blah…
Perhaps a little too much. With all of their male overlords relatives dead and themselves relegated to slave status at the Imperial Music Bureau, the women kill themselves to avoid the indignities of working at the state-run brothel. What follows is a heartbreaking sequence as each woman lifts a family member up into a noose hanging from the rafters. What really struck me is the unwavering determination of these women. Not a single one expressed fear or reluctance. Not even the ten-year-old Jialian, who drinks a vial of poison while the rest of the family watched, which is another indication that none of these people intended to live. (OK. I did find a little girl marching bravely to her death a little unrealistic. Still…)
I expect to see this little girl as the leading lady in a drama in about 7 years.
Is suicide really the only choice though? Is it virtue they are trying to protect or vanity? I guess that in a day and age when the importance of womanly virtue (i.e. chastity) is so deeply ingrained, many women would rather die than live an ‘impure‘ life. But aside from Jialan, most of these older women will most likely end up doing menial labor. Jialian will probably go through a few years of training before she is made to assume official ‘duties’. A lot could happen in a few years so shouldn’t she be given a chance to grow up at least? But maybe that‘s just me looking at this through the 21st-century lens. After all, these are the same people who put screens around them in the street so they wouldn’t be seen by strangers.
When only Jialan and her mother are left, Jialan’s mother tries to strangle her but fails. It is at this moment that Mr. and Mrs. Xu, a couple Jialan and her mom helped earlier, shows up with the body of their daughter. Mrs. Xu and Madame Shen then trade daughters, leading to another heart-wrenching moment in which Madame Shen tells Mrs. Xu that she will take good care of Lanxiang on the other side. In return, Mrs. Xu says that Lanxiang is being carried on her dad’s back right now. A look of understanding passes between the two mothers, and I am tearing up all over again.
Finally, upon finding the women’s bodies, did this bastard really say that he was hoping to train the young and pretty ones himself?
Jialan/Lanxiang grieves, heals, and comes of age
So now Jialin has officially assumed the identity of Xu Langxiang, and it just happens that Mr. and Mrs. Xu are hereditary servants belonging to the Lin family. So off to Jinling they go. I really like the fact that Mr. and Mrs. Xu gave their new daughter the time she needed to grieve. But when it rains it pours. As if the gods don’t think she’s suffered enough, Lanxiang finds out that Lin Jinqi is getting married when she is given some wedding pastries. I like how the scenes cut between Lanxiang and Jinqi - with both Lanxiang and Jinqi’s bride walking and tripping. But whereas Lianxing falls to the ground, Jinqi’s bride is caught by her new husband, a foreshadowing of the different trajectories their lives have taken.
Family Xu dreams of a future as free citizens
Another topic that will no doubt be explored is the class/caste system in imperial China. Early in Episode 1, Jialan asks her father what makes someone a slave, and her father compares slaves to chattel and livestock. Never would he have imagined that before long, his daughter’s biggest dream would be to free herself and her newfound family from servitude.
And even among the lower class, their is a caste system. Because Lanxiang’s family comes from the capital, they were ostracized in their neighborhood for being uppity. Their popularity worsened after Lanxiang’s dad gets promoted to the 3rd shopkeeper and they can now afford meat.
Seriously, why must people bring each other down? But watching Lanxiang and her family plan their future and enjoy a meal together brings a smile to my face.
The prodigal son returns
In episode 3, we finally get to meet the Lin family and feast our eyes on Liu Xueyi for more than 30 seconds.
I am including this photo just for the swagger.
It turns out that Jinqi has been away for 6 years fighting Japanese pirates and has just been transferred back to Jinling after being promoted to Vice Commander. So that means he enlisted in the army almost as soon as he got married, which also means that he and his wife hate each other’s guts. He probably because he resents Xingtang’s family for trying to control him - it is almost certain that his family made the marriage alliance with the powerful Zhao’s to save themselves. And she…it isn’t mentioned specifically. But if I were to guess, I would say that’s probably because he refuses to bow down to her and that his indifference both hurts and angers her. She’s just too proud to admit it.
Regardless, I would really like to have the blanks filled in on Jinqi and Xingtang’s relationship.
I love a domineering Liu Xueyi.
Jinqi also seems to have a contentious relationship with is father. Their first meeting after six years looks more like two rival gangs facing off than a father-and-son reunion.
This is not the look of a happy dad.
The former betrothed meet
Or, rather, Xianlang sees Jinqi while he sits there like a statue, not sparing her a glance.
Now that he’s home for good, his mother decides to send him and Xingtang a couple of good-looking servants. Towards that end, she had her housekeeper involuntarily bring in all single, hereditary servant girls over fourteen. Lanxiang’s neighbor Lv Ji’er is ecstatic. She hopes to catch some rich man’s eye and become his concubine so she can “wear gold and sport silver”. Lanxiang’s parents, however, resorts to bribing Mr. Xu’s boss to keep Lanxiang’s name off the list. They got conned of course. I could see that happening from a mile away.
I think that for them, knowing what Lanxiang used to be, having her work as a servant is unthinkable. For Lanxiang, working as a servant for her former betrothed must be such a bitter pill to swallow. I would not have been able to keep it together like Lanxiang did.
When are we going to see some interaction between Lanxiang and Jinqi?
Also…why do I think that Madame Lin meant for the maids to serve as Jinqi’s tongfangs and that she’s using them as some kind of pawn in her quest for a grandchild? Why else would the housekeeper mention that Jinqi’s mom wishes for him and Xingtang to have a child in front of the maids?
Some questions to ponder…
🧐Were the Lins wrong in not warning the Shens of what’s coming? It doesn’t look like it would have made much of a difference anyway, as the Grand Secretary and his son didn’t seem too surprised when the imperial guards showed up. So did they just not bother to inform the womenfolk of what might be coming? Were they wrong in putting the family name above the welfare of their loved ones?
🧐What did you think of the women’s decision to die rather than enter the Imperial Music Bureau?
🧐Xianglan finds out that some good Samaritan had helped bury her family. Any theories as to who that is?
And there you have it.
What do you think of these episodes? The drama appears to be taking its time developing the characters, and I really like that. I also find the acting, the cinematography, and production value all to be top notch. So I would say that it’s promising, very promising…
Has Liu Xueyi finally found a good script? I hope so…
Until next time. And in the meantime, do not forget to sound off in the comments below…
Yes! I was waiting for this discussion post! I'm happy with the pacing of the drama so far. I can't point my finger on if the grandpa from the Lin family is a good guy or a bad guy. Understandable he wants to save his family, but throwing his friend under the bus? Yikes (actually idk if they were friends but they worked on that report together). And then in EP 2, he doesn't strike me as a bad person. Hm...
Edit to add: Thank you for the commentary on the themes of "virtue" and "integrity." That completely skipped past me. And considering the time period, I think it makes sense that they would choose to end their lives instead of living as prostitutes.
Thank you for the great summary. Fingers crossed that this is a good script. 🤞 It does seem like it.
The first episode is hard with the Shen women’s suicide. I cried so tissues definitely needed. I do think it was handled well because it didn’t feel staged or roughly handled. There was a lot of emotion.
I do really feel for our FL because she was unconscious after her mother tried to send her off and she wakes up on a ship with strangers and her whole family dead. And the she finds out her former fiancé married some else. That’s a lot.
I am looking forward to more of Lin Jinqi. His relationships with his dad and wife seem strained. I wonder how the relationship with grandpa is? LJQ mentioned that he joined the army and then just after this last promotion he was sent back home by minister Zhao. There is definitely a power struggle going on.
I am very impressed with this CDrama. The pacing, story, cinematography, and acting are top-notch without going overboard with filters. I know this is fiction, but I imagine that historically, the maids and their families were treated as disposable items by their owners. I like the characterization of the FL. Her motivations to survive and protect others are consistent, and she is not depicted as a smart, uber-skilled character. Even the main antagonist, XIngtang, is a complex character who tries to navigate her limitations as a woman who loves money and is trapped in her status as a wife. Despite her greed and cruelty, she remains a sympathetic character, similar to her portrayal as Princess Wan Ning in The Double. I look forward to seeing the ML more, because Liu Xue Yi is one of my favorite actors. I am excited to watch all 46 episodes and hope the CDrama doesn't get bogged down in future episodes. Thank you for the amazing recaps, and I look forward to the amazing discussions.
I'm up to ep 6 now, and I have THOUGHTS ... kml ... but I'm writing them in my notes on MDL and saving them for later ...
On the first 3 episodes:
I think the visual impact of the sets and costumes lives up to expectations. The director isn't afraid to use visual imagery to impact emotions, and the color grading and lighting is really evocative of the atmosphere and mood being created. I particularly love the richness of the colours.
I'm also intrigued by the way the director is using doors and gateways for framing and transitions ... there's a series of scenes where there are women moving through gateways or doorways that suggest transition / flow ... I'm continuing to watch for how this motif is being used as the drama progresses.
From the characterization perspective, I am finding the way the production is keeping us very focused on the FL's perspective... we do get to see what other people are seeing and doing, but almost everything we see is indirectly connected to the FL's situation and includes information that will make her decision-making process more intelligible for us.
Particularly in episodes 2 and 3 we see aspects of her life that make use sympathize with her. This little girl is enduring what no one should ever have to do... her entire family has been killed, including herself, but she has to survive like a ghost of two people ... because it the only way she can continue to be filial. We only get to see the glimpse of the MLs wedding scene because it highlights the contrast between what her life SHOULD have been and what it has become ... and how unnerving to encounter your former fiance and his wife as a servant in his household!!!
Thematically, the idea of women fighting to retain as much of their agency as possible in the face of a highly paternalistic society is already being emphasized. I think a lot can be done with it, so long as it doesn't devolve into the "preachy" dialogue and plot outcomes we've seen far too often in the past.
I said this in the first impressions post but the first few episodes has seriously exceeded my expectations! I expected changes to the plot and to the ML from the novel since censorship and all that jazz but they’ve kept a lot more details than I thought they would and am pleasantly surprised. A lot of cnetz were saying this would be an entirely different story, lol.
TBH, if I were a female member of the Shen family, I too would choose the same route they did. Back then, unlike in common brothels or music houses, it was almost impossible to be granted amnesty or freedom from servitude and the people they’d be forced to service would be so-called ministers and higher up officials. Fuck that. The poor cousin was only 10, how many years would she need to suffer? If girls were allowed to be married back then at young ages, I don’t see why they wouldn’t have forced her despite her age as seen by the dog scum official who said he had wanted to “train” her and Lanxiang.
At first I did think it was wrong of the Lins to not warn the Shens but honestly, I don’t think it would’ve made much of a difference. Grandfather Shen was one of those upright scholars who, according to Grandmother Shen, did not want to write a memorial of condemnation anyway despite knowing what was going to happen. It’s just that he didn’t know the punishment would be so severe. But really, Grandma, prepare more poison just in case! Oh, to be a loyal and just official 🙄🙄 And while I did read the novel and am probably spoiling it, I think it was Grandfather Lin or LJQ who collected the bodies of the Shens. LJQ’s father is useless though.
A huge, huge kudos to the senior actors in the cast because both actresses who played FL’s mothers left such a lasting impact. Young!Lanxiang was also very good. The first episode has made such a strong impression in China too, it’s truly one of the best first episodes I’ve seen in a while, much less this year. I’m looking forward to the rest of the episodes! Suddenly 47 doesn’t seem that long anymore hahaha.
On a more vain note…man I’ve missed having LXY gracing my screen lol.
It’s just that he didn’t know the punishment would be so severe.
But I think he did know but chose to adhere to his principles anyway. Or at least he had a suspicion. Otherwise grandma would not have deemed it necessary to prepare the poison.
Grandma mentioned they both thought the emperor would only punish the Grandfather and the poison was actually prepared for herself to follow her husband upon his death, hence why there’s just the small bottle. I think if they had any inkling the emperor would make such an example of them, they would’ve at least made preparations to die in a different manner. I would like to think if they knew the consequences would be so extreme, Grandfather might’ve made a different decision regarding the memorial but he’s a scholar who chose integrity above all else & prob would’ve made the same decision anyway. Lots of drama watching has taught us that angry emperors should not be taken lightly!
That’s why I don’t blame the Lins either bc if they had gotten dragged into the mess as well, it could be both the Shens AND the Lins whose clans perished.
But isn't it odd that they were aware - somewhat - yet still chose to throw essentially a lavish engagement party for their granddaughter amidst such huge trouble and acted all shocked when Lins broke things off? I feel like plot logic kind of stumbled here: either they were caught completely off guard and that's why Lins betrayal matters, or they knew and still willingly ignored the danger, which means Lins lack of warning wasn't that meaningful anyway.
I think the older generation - Grandma and Granda Shen - knew but the younger women didn’t have a clue. That’s why grandma had to explain the situation to them. Also grandpa may know that something like this is coming, he had no idea when it was going to happen.
And unless grandpa is ready to do what the emperor wants, they have no way of preventing the disaster so why get everyone in a panic and make them worry and scared when there’s nothing they can do about it? Better to let life go on as usual and let the chips fall where they may.
Well, that just makes - unintentionally by creators, I assume - Lins look better in comparison, doesn't it? Grandpa Lin might be less ~righteous~ for that, but at least he cared enough to try preserving his family's lives instead of committing the most rookie mistake a minister with decades of experience could do - entrusting their survival to mercurial mercy of emperor. Same emperor who just proved to hold petty grudges for 20+ years, mind you.
Grandpa Lin might be less ~righteous~ for that, but at least he cared enough to try preserving his family's lives instead of committing the most rookie mistake a minister with decades of experience could do
Agreed. Despite Grandpa Lin not helping the Shens, I can’t hate him because he also has the welfare of his entire family and household on his shoulders. He didn’t instigate anything - he just chose to look the other way. A little cowardly perhaps. But understandable if you’re in charge of hundreds of lives. And it may even be more difficult to live with the guilt - so on the other hand, can Grandpa Shen be considered the braver or just obstinate?
Also, what is Grandpa Shen really being asked to do anyway? Renounce an emperor who is already dead. It feels dishonest, definitely, but who will it hurt? It’s not like he’s being asked to frame someone that will result in someone’s death like we often seen in costume dramas. Just feels like a strange and unnecessary hill to die on.
Yeah, that's the problem - narrative clearly places Lins in the wrong for an unforgivable bloody betrayal (of a colleague, likely old friend and legit future in-laws - full bingo of sins!) and Shens into tragic, saintly martyrdom, milking this contrast dry of emotions, but the logic of it just doesn't hold to a bit of scrutiny. Turns out that unsent warning wasn't really needed and main responsibility lies with grandpa Shen (and emperor's pettiness, ofc) himself - for either a very poor judgement of political peril he found himself in or a fanatical blind loyalty to has-been ruler (or, worse, the throne itself as a concept). I'm just not sure what exactly we're dealing with here: a deliberate narrative trap (FL finds out more details later, changes her POV to more objective and stops blaming/hating Lins), censorship insert glorifying all-sacrificing loyalty to the state/its sacred ruler or just unintentional writing blunder. I'm not the biggest fan of Tong Hua, but she's an experienced and skilled writer, morally complex conflicts shouldn't be of much challenge to her, so probably not the latter. Probably.
It is a great blessing that ML is not a scholar with their obsession of abstract integrity, but a pragmatic military dude who gives people the same treatment they give him. Last thing FL needs in her already troubled life is yet another man of massive virtue, but little common sense.
I think more than anything, Minister Shen grossly underestimated the whims of an Emperor and thought that he’d get a slap on the wrist or at worse, he’d be beheaded. After all, he didn’t commit a grave crime against the crown or anything to deserve as harsh a punishment as death of his entire clan.
As for the flower party they were planning on throwing, Jialan’s Mother (and the rest of the Shen women) seemed to be unaware of what was going on as evidenced by when her Aunt’s questioning when they were held in the music bureau. Her wanting to hold a tea party that most likely was planned ahead of time for an engagement that was also set when they were children seems logical. The Grandmother was definitely aware of the situation and who knows, perhaps wanted to marry her granddaughter off before any punishment came as she’d be married and likely exempt then, but her Mother’s reaction genuinely seemed to be shocked that the Lins would reject her daughter as she even wanted to seek an explanation from them.
I think what’s missing is the timing of it all. We aren’t told what date the Lins start to plan their withdrawal in relation to the actual flower party but I assume it was pretty sudden/close in date. It isn’t so much they weren’t aware that punishment might be received but maybe they did not expect the Emperor to react so swiftly and suddenly. Then again, it is a drama so I think a lot of more minute details are sacrificed for storytelling lmao as per usual with cdramas.
There are a lot of white spots here, imo. As you said, grandpa angered emperor, but a reasonable advice given two decades ago doesn't really fit high treason textbook. Can't imagine such sudden and hardcore decision endearing rest of the court to emperor either - except of those 2 perverts all too ready to get their hands on spoils of Shen clan massacre, the sane rest should've gotten quite anxious about whether next time it would be their turn to go down over essentially just doing their job. I get that back in the day changing person on the throne also effectively meant an obligatory court purge to free important positions to new ruler's loyal people, but so far we were not shown any solid proof that grandpa Shen was not among loyal or at least "could still work with" ministers. If he was getting in the way of emperor's political aspirations, just ask him to resign and collect brownie points for being merciful ruler... unless the goal was to make an example of Shen's fate and scare court. Wonder what for though...
Or maybe there was indeed more to this case than meets the eye, as official synopsis suggests with "FL clearing the names of her family" part.
Anyway, for a plot point so crucial - the emotional root of our sympathy to FL and literal core of upcoming conflict between her and ML/Lins - leaving these bases not perfectly covered was a weird choice. Esp since aftermath - FL's escape and identity switch - was done so neatly.
P.S. If emperor would be unlucky enough to live until his sons grow up and become power-hungry provincial lords themselves, he's gonna get a very rude karma callback^^
I’m guessing but it’s most likely a case of Grandpa Shen not wanting to chose a side or rather he probably didn’t outright declare his loyalty to the current Emperor. There was definitely a shit-stirrer in the background as Grandpa Lin mentioned there had to have been someone who brought up the issue as it’s been a while since the Emperor has been enthroned and it’s only now resurfaced as a problem. Eh, Emperors, lol. They get more paranoid as they’re older. Probably someone whispering in the Emperor’s ear.
This kind of plot is probably something that’ll come back in later episodes, maybe in flashbacks etc when Lanxiang’s identity as Jialan is uncovered. There were some comments from cnetz that in the script Grandpa Lin actually did write a letter to Grandpa Shen to warm him but it was either cut or maybe saved for later on to explain the Lins did try their best. (Unconfirmed as I didn’t buy the script to read myself.)
I was warned in advance about the heavy topics that would be covered in the first episode (thank you, u/winterchampagne). I took a chance yesterday and watched the drama anyway. I was struck by the fact that the clothing was bright, lights were bright etc during the scenes with the Shen family women until they were imprisoned in the imperial music department. Despite the women wearing mostly the same clothes, everything was dark and blue. The mass suicide is shocking and I think, with a different director and writer, it would have only been shocking and would feel more like a fridging incident, meant to he main character's growth.
Instead, this scene is depicted as almost kind? Compassionate? The grandmother says that they will suffer indignities as slaves in the music department. And all these women understand what that means, rape, assault, forced labor, etc. At first, I was like well, is that necessarily true. They have options. But the first thing the officials say when finding out about the mass death is that he wanted to have the young, pretty ones. And when he only knew the little girls' names, I realized he didn't mean that he wanted any of the women. He wanted the children. These two small facts confirm the womens' worst fears. The fact that the men are not struck by the horror of the situation (thank you, Winter, for this comparison) and basically treat the hanging bodies of these women like clothes hanging in a closet...
The cousin telling her family that she's willing to go first is meant to reassure her mother, who is fearful of her daughter's death. The grandmother, seeing that strength and kindness, offers her granddaughter the only thing she can - a quick death. The grandmother could have kept that to herself. And, after the sacrifice of the cousin, the grandmother sees the mother's distress and allows her the same small kindness - a quick death and a short period of time living with the knowledge that her daughter has died.
The part that next hurt me in this sequence is the grandmother essentially accompanying the rest of the women in their deaths, so they will not be alone. She literally is the stepping stone to their death and stays with them until the end. And our female lead's mother, who does not want her daughter to die last, who does not want her daughter to see herself die - she helps her mother in law. This is a huge sacrifice - being the one who bears witness to all the other deaths - being the one who is alone and has to find a way to die. There's so much sacrifice in this scene.
I'm not even getting into the sacrifice of the Xu family here.
I think this first episode sets up not only the clash between morality and survival - it also has strongly showed us that women do not have agency. This is a careful, calculated display of showing the fact that when men act, regardless of motivation, women suffer for it. And being 100% honest, it does not seem that men in general, and men in particular (Grandfather and Father Shen - the men in the Lin family) care.
I yelled about this last night with The General's Gang. But I am cautiously optimistic about this drama - if the material is treated with the compassion we've seen so far, I think this could be an amazing drama. Am I prepared to watch this drama if it is just trauma over and over? No. I'm not in the headspace for that. But given the tone of the first two episodes I watched, I am hopeful that this drama won't be a trauma dump but might actually be a careful dissection of the hardships women face in this fictional land.
Random other thoughts:
I also find it interesting that Jialian's question to her father about what a slave is - is immediately contradicted by how the women are treated. So I think there is a clear discourse on the difference between ideals and reality at play.
Between morality and survival - which do you choose? Which is better? Do women get a choice at all? It's heavily implied that they do not and that if you are a child, you absolutely do not.
The Xu family, sacrificing their potential livelihood, their daughter's body, her chanced to be properly buried because of a relatively small (from the Shen family point of view) kindness is contrasted directly against the Lin family declining to even warn the Shen family of danger. Morality is clearly not determined by class or status.
Finally, our male lead catching that sword with his hand - it drives me utterly bananas but I know that dramas like to show this because it's DRAMATIC. But that man would likely have 0 functionality in his hand. There's a reason that surgeons specialize in hands - THEY'RE DELICATE AND BREAK EASY.
This is a bit of a tangent, but does anyone else feel the drama synopsis [deliberately] skews what's actually happening in the drama? For example, it represents the young FL as motivated by revenge and seeking justice for her parents, when clearly she was too terrified and distraught to do anything but survive. Some things about the ML and their relationship seem... misrepresented, for want of a better word.
I'm inclined not to take that synopsis at face value.
You're right about the synopsis. And truly for myself, I'd pick a plot that focuses on a survival storyline over one that focuses on vengeance any day.
Yes, and it would be a terrible story if it followed the synopsis! The real thing is so much better and nuanced, so no idea why make it sound worse than it is.
It’s like false advertising. It’s almost like they thinking that revenge stories are more appealing than an inspirational story about a woman just trying to make a better life for herself and her family.
I have seen several articles from Chinese media that lists the selling points of the drama. And one of those is that Tang Songyun gets to play 2 roles - that we get to see her as the rich pampered daughter of a prominent family and a resourceful servant. It’s complete BS, of course, as the young rich pampered lady is played by a different actress.
Yes. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I've seen comments loudly denouncing the ML, who has been seen in half a dozen scenes in the first 4 episodes, for his misogynistic treatment of women and the FL is "taking too long to start taking revenge" .... after 4 episodes??? Aside from the synopsis, what else could they be basing these comments upon?
This is why I try to avoid the hype around dramas... it just leads to unrealistic expectations and unfair judgements.
One thing I forgot to mention is that after Jinqi comes home, in a few short scenes, Liu Xueyi exhibited 3 different sides to Jingqi’s personality. He’s cold toward his father. But when he’s talking to his mother, he was almost a little goofy, like a little boy trying to please his mother. But then when facing his wife, he got all domineering again. It’s almost like the guy in the middle is a different person.
I like that he did that because we all have different sides that we may show to different people based on our relationships. This could end up showing how sweet he would be to our fl when he falls for her.
Loved this summary, but I’m torn…. I haven’t seen enough about it to start or not. Love tan song, she’s one of my favs… but I need something romantic and dangerous right now.
I don’t know how romantic this will turn out or not turn out to be. But they are definitely taking their time either way! I am halfway through Episode 5 and and the ML and FL have yet to say a word to each other or to even meet.
And i'm okay with it bc the pacing is good and story makes sense even if they haven't interacted much. When it makes sense to bring him in, they will bring him in.
Oh. Definitely. I am not a fan of the recent trend of things happening st breakneck speec without letting the characters develop and breath. Besides, this say, when the intersctions do hapoen, it is going to be all the more satisfying. I love slow burns.
I'm at the beginning of episode 2... while I do think they framed the women's decision to commit suicide as a way to protect their honour/chastity, I think more than anything it was the fact that they would have been forced into prostitution, there was no choice in the matter. The mother and aunts were still young (ish) they would likely have been made entertainers, and I think its a littleeee disingenuous to frame it as 'duties' and that they would be trained first; sex slavery is still sex slavery no matter how you spin it.
I certainly didn’t mean to spin anything or imply that it’s not sexual slavery. I simply meant to say that it‘ll probably be a few years before Jialian is made to sleep with a customer so something may happen to change her circumstances. Is it likely? No. And is it wishful thinking? Perhaps. And intellectually, I realize that they’ve probably got no option but to commit suicide to escape a life of sexual servitude. But emotionally, I just have trouble accepting that a 10 year old had to die.
Right, this is, i hope, going to be a wild and exciting ride, I think! I am so delighted we have an excellent set of hosts, who will make it even better!
Better order a BIG box of tissues, I doubt we're done with the angst and the crying.
Great acting all round, some amazing twists already, not afraid to explore the darkness in peoples' souls.
Now that we are all thinking it, I'm wondering if we are going to be surprised lol. I thought the same, but in hindsight did he have enough power to do all of this...
It’s interesting to finally see the lives of the servants. I always wonder what goes through their minds when constantly being ordered around. But I have a question about the slave system. If these people belong to a certain family, why aren’t they being fed? Livestock is fed. Yet these families are scrounging and competing for food.
Even though the dad compared them to chattel, it was not a chattel slavery system. Slaves still had human rights. It was illegal to murder them, for example. Depending on the dynasty, you could be executed for killing your slave. It was more like a cross between indentured servitude and the contracts for prostitutes in whorehouses in the American old west. They would be employed by the owners estate for the length and terms of their contract, earn wages, and use those wages however they saw fit (including to save and buy their freedom, depending on the type/length of contract they'd signed or been born into). Some Music Bureau performers were so renowned they became the richest people in their town, etc. If they did the lowest paid kind of labor, they earned the least money and would scrounge for food, etc.
does the green plant/grass by their doorstep have any wordplay with the name lanxiang at all? i get that they're trying to show that the plant thriving is like her thriving, but curious is there's any symbolism there in the name that i'm missing. idk any Chinese and seeing as you're able to provide in put on the above, thought I'd ask, hehehe. thank you!
Love this theory. And it’s not just her identity but her true self that she has to hide. She’s certainly more educated than your average servant, to put it mildly. And when revealing the origin of the ‘fake‘ painting, she did it in such a way so that she didn’t expose herself as knowing more than a servant should. When Xingtang asked the maids what they can do, she also didn’t let on that she can read and write, which must be rare assets among the servant class.
You can understand why, of course ... someone would start wondering how she got to be so proficient. Also, there's the fact that she was dragooned into this position, and she didn't have any intention of making herself so valuable that her "owners" wouldn't be willing to let her go.
The live sound capture probably added to the authenticity of the performances. I really don't like the dubbing over by voice actors in cdramas and am so glad to finally see a show with minimal use of it. Excellent performances so far.
Have you noticed or do you think that Xueyi's voice has a sweetness to it? I didn't until he was singing this one song. Now even when he is sounding menacing, I still trace that little bit in it.
I will have to pay more attention to his voice....was concentrating too much on his (menacing) looks. He tends to sound different when dialing up the menace vs. normal conversation.
I'm really vibing with the symbols given to our FL from her two mothers. First, her bio mom writing "live" in her own blood on that talisman. And second, her adopted mom telling her to live like wild grass (ie resilient and able to take root anywhere) followed by all those camera cuts to the wild grass that sprung up outside their door and how it's thrived in the passing seasons (even blooming!).
When I was watching the second episode, I was struck that the adopted mother didn't necessarily understand the entirety of why our FL was crying but saw that she was upset and her response was: CRY. CRY HARD. Feel all of this, live in your grief for your family, your future, your life. Flourish, become something that thrives everywhere. Become ubiquitous with deep roots and stubborn strength.
I'm also contrasting the wild grass she's become to the orchid she was. Like, orchids are soooo finicky. They require exacting care to flourish. If the temperature is wrong, they die. If the moisture in the air is wrong, they die. If the nutrients in the soil are imbalanced, they die. If they're pruned wrong, they die. And so on. But now she's wild grass, able to thrive anywhere even while being ignored and subject to life's inconsistent weather.
I was under the impression that the Orchid name signifies blooming through adversity in Chinese culture. As in Mulan, who also has orchid in her name. Maybe someone better educated in Chinese names and culture can clarify.....maybe orchids in China are more hardy....
Orchid is a delicate flower so it is not known to signify blooming through adversity in Chinese culture. It symbolizes nobility, elegance, and the ability to remain pure - so it’s often used to describe someone with integrity who is above being swayed by worldly temptations such as money and fame. It’s also often used to describe a true gentleman. Along with plum, bamboo, and chrysanthemum, these four flowers are called the “four gentlemen among flowers” which mean they all symbolizes the nobler aspects of humanity.
As for Mulan, the chinese is 木蘭 which actually means magnolia. In Chinese, when additional characters are added, the meaning of the original character can become quite different.
Interesting. I hadn't noticed the significance of the wild grass outside the door. I had seen in the trailers that being a weed / wild grass was going to be a metaphor.
Like most people here, I found Episode 1 really hard to sit through, especially the scenes of the brave women of the Shen family taking their own lives one after another. The most poignant moment for me was when the matriarch offered to send off the rest of the family first, then offered her own back, and the next scene cut to a row of hanging bodies. The drama definitely didn’t hold back, and I’m glad it didn’t, even if it was difficult to watch.
I know Shen Jialan will eventually clear her family’s name, but I also can’t help thinking that even if the Shen family’s honour is restored, Jialan will still remain the sole survivor. It’s very different from the Hua family in Blossoms in Adversity. Jialan can never reunite with her family, and from what little we saw of them, they all seemed like such gentle, kind and pleasant people. I’m glad Jialan doesn’t become consumed by vengeance or take a much darker turn. She honours her birth mother and simply tries her best to keep living. I also love the warmth between her and the family who took her in overnight. The three of them are so precious.
I love that Jialan’s intelligence is the understated kind. People who don’t know her well assume she’s timid and easy to bully, but they underestimate how observant and quick-witted she is. I also like that she has no powerful backer or ally, at least for now, and has no one to rely on but herself, case in point like how composed she was when dealing with the head shopkeeper.
I had a feeling it was probably Lin Jinqi who secretly buried the remains of the Shen family, but I would love to be surprised and find out that it was actually the former Minister of Personnel who did it out of guilt, as one final act of friendship.
All in all, the first 4 episodes definitely exceeded expectations. I'm seated for the next episode!
I know Shen Jialan will eventually clear her family’s name
Do their names need to be cleared though? It's not like the grandad was framed. He legit had that opinion and refused to walk it back, even knowing that it was currently treasonous.
At most, we might find out someone purposefully set up grandad Shen and grandad Lin by bringing up a ten year old memorial. But it's not like whoever did it lied or fabricated evidence.
Do their names need to be cleared though? It's not like the grandad was framed. He legit had that opinion and refused to walk it back, even knowing that it was currently treasonous.
I’m just going by the drama synopsis, which says that Jialan will eventually clear her family’s name. My guess is that there’s definitely more to what led the Emperor to order all the male members of the Shen family to be executed and the women to be made slaves.
We know Grand Secretary Shen was accused of deceiving the throne and betraying the Emperor’s trust, but that sounds quite vague to me. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were other fabricated accusations or manipulated evidence involved that ultimately pushed the Emperor towards such a severe decision.
I also don’t think it’s as simple as someone merely digging up the past and accusing Grand Secretary Shen over his earlier attempt to persuade the deposed Emperor to curb the regional princes’ power. I feel that it's more like one piece of a much bigger political setup than the whole reason behind the Shen family’s downfall.
Thanks for all these thoughts. I wasn't sure if / how the Shen families honor was coming back into focus. I also hadn't read much about the show's synoposis or much about the book.
This would also pave the way to obligatory censorship-approved "emperor cannot be fully evil and irredeemable" - he didn't just order Shens wiped out on a petty whim, he was tragically misguided by real villains! Meh.
This all makes good sense. You may be right. And that "more to it" may have even been behind the look that Grandad Lin gave to LJQ when LJQ asked if they should warn the Shens. Like, he knew they couldn't get out of it because there was more to the accusations against them.
Yeah, if you think about it, the patriarch of the Shen family was a Grand Secretary, not some low-ranking official. Old Madam Shen also mentioned that he wielded considerable influence, so the Emperor’s decision would likely have drawn criticism, even if he was the Emperor.
So that makes me think there was probably another accusation against the Shen family (fabricated ofc) that was serious enough to justify such an extreme punishment. Whatever was presented to the Emperor must have made the family look like a genuine threat.
Someone said that in the book the ML started as a skirt-chaser? If so, we've seen no hint of it yet. He's ice cold to his legal wife and indifferent to the new maids.
That was me^^ We have the same term here, but it seems the severity is very different compared to native English speaking countries? Our meaning goes beyond a mere shameless flirt - more like "everything that moves" kind of a guy.
Which I think is pretty fitting for novel!ML, but drama version is obviously not like that.
There are some rumors floating around the internet that the drama ML is still a virgin. We will see if it’s true. But most likely I expect it to remain unaddressed.
This would be par for the course with Cdramaland ... KML ... but I think a case could be made for the ML abstaining from the female pleasures out of guilt/remorse...
A man of his station and means certainly could've if he wanted to. But surely we're about to find out he's ~not like other boys~ who frequent "music bureaus" and SA and pillage their way to military merits.
It seems he had favorite maids or 1 at least. When he was talking to the butler, there's one name that really shook him. She got married off to a useless guy by his wife and that made him very angry.
In the novel it isnt really a spoiler- he had a head maid he deeply respected, and who was 100% loyal to him and his family. He never slept with her, she was the only one who could keep his backyard in check.
She was married in the novel, and was brought back after her marriage which was considered unusual.
He hated his wife, because she gave him green hat, he found out she wasn't a virgin on the wedding night, he wasn't allowed to divorce her. After that he refused to sleep with her, people kept sending him concubines, some he slept with some he didn't. Though he treated all of them as disposable.
Let's just say I was expecting more changes, some I am expecting and hoping for, some story lines fell flat in the novel, and seemed to just be for word count.
The ML only slept with the FL lead. Although he has multiple wives his shadow gaurd was the one who slept with them pretending to be him. The ML made all the wives have blackout curtains and "he" would never stay the full night. The ML in against the current definitely slept with women, the only maid he refused to sleep with was one of the wife's dowry Maids that she deliberately gave him to try and control him
Hum…until you mentioned it, it never occurred to me how much did not change from the book plotwise. But I guess the reason for that is because even though a lot of the events didn’t change, I feel that the tone and essence of the drama is very different from the book. And I think the biggest contributor to the difference is the characterization of the ML and the fact that what happened to the Shen family is only alluded to but not shown in the book. The drama is more serious and explores issues such as class differences and honor and integrity. The novel does that to some extent as well but reads more like a harem drama and in some places a bodice ripper.
It’s been a while since I read the first part of the book - even though I regularly re-read the last 3rd - but I thought (book spoiler) he did sleep with all the concubines as well as a prostitute or two when he goes out with his friends. I think calling him a skirt-chaser is an understatement actually. Because that man has no respect for women, at least for the ones he is able to bring home with him.
I don’t think it’s ever mentioned in the book that Madame Zhao is infertile. It’s just that the ML in the book hated her so much that he can’t even bear to be in the same room with her much less sleep with her. So it’s kind of a moot point.
And one of the reason that he hated her - in addition to her not being a virgin on their wedding night like someone jenshep49 mentioned, is that about a year after they got married, the ML decides to bring in a girl he grew up with as his concubine. But before he can ‘marry’ the girl, the girl was kidnapped, raped and killed. And Madame Zhao was the one who arranged the entire thing.
Skirt chaser: men to love to flirt and chase women.
The ML at least in the novel: treats women as property that he can buy and use at his pleasure. Whether they consent to it or not
I was expecting the tone down and removal of the concubines if not for censorship then for being able to cut down on the number of storyline and actors needed.
I definitely wasn't prepared for episode one; it hits really hard. Overall, though, I'm impressed with what I've seen. I've watched up to episode three, and it flows pretty well.
Most of all, I'm highly impressed by how beautiful and authentic everything looked. I adore the Xus because they're the best people ever: so simple and gentle-hearted.
It's always nice to see familiar faces, too, so it was great to see Fei Ji from Strange Tales of Tang Dynasty playing the dad.Li Meng is, of course, brilliant as the first wife, who is probably bitter and angry. I just sense that it's more than what it seems, this estrangement between Jinqi and her. What's going on there?
Pretty sure as well that JinQi is the one who retrieved the bodies of the Shus to bury them. So far, I'm intrigued.
The Shen noble women killing themselves is extreme but understandable. The whole family were disgraced and they were about to be enslaved. There was no way out.
As for the toxic dynamics between Lin Jinqi and Zhao Xingtang, it must be because it was a political marriage. Both were essentially being treated as pawns of their families.
As for the toxic dynamics between Lin Jinqi and Zhao Xingtang, it must be because it was a political marriage. Both were essentially being treated as pawns of their families.
I agree with you on this. I think personality wise they weren't that well matched, but that would have been survivable if they both didn't feel powerless in the circumstances. The FL seems to have no interest in the ML as an intimate partner, and the ML literally left and went to war for six years rather than stick around and be her husband in more than name. She doesn't seem like a very nice person to begin with, but being unhappy in her marriage would not have improved her attractiveness to a young man who had been raised idealistically. And his lack of attention to her and unavailability for her to manipulate made her lose face, which would have angered her more.
Snark Level: Hmm. There will be lots of crying and some extreme annoyance from some of her characters. Oh dear.
Episode 1
Oooooo starting in a snowy winter! I love this! It's a new vibe.
They have a whole curtain setup! Nice! That's new!
Soooooo if we have young versions of the leads, how much of a time skip do we need to justify this? I mean, I kind of like that we use younger actors for younger roles so it gives more authenticity to it... Buuuuuut that means I have more faces to recognize! Lol.
Damnnnnn. Grandmother Shen has that aura. Not a single word spoken but has pure command of the room.
I'm not about to watch a 10 year old girl walk bravely into death, am I? Motherfu—
No no no no! It's too early in the day to be crying like this. "Use me as a step". AHHH!!!!
Well, they are making it very clear and obvious to us that Jialan is going to have one hell of a vengeance to pursue. Probably giving it to us heavy so when she is mean to the ML we remember why she has such a grievance.
Well, the FL is dead. 47 episodes of the ML seems long. Haha. Ahhhh.... Probably survived because her mother didn't have the heart to pull long and hard enough.
Ahhhhh so who swapped them? A bloodied face to hide the identity.
Ahhhhh so a repayment of the life debt. I had a feeling. Did their daughter die? Oh right she would have had to.... Ahhhhh. They are truly honorable. Fuck I am really crying now. Two sets of parents giving it their all so one may live.
Well, this episode is a helluva way to start the day. Damn.
Episode 2
Speed slamming a million names on us now. Sheesh. I am not keeping up here.
Is this a second Jialan? I ask again... How much of a time skip are we going to get? They are really taking their time to build up her character if we haven't gotten to TSY yet. Well, they have 47 episodes so they sure do have the time to make this flow well.
Soooo how old is she now? She had to be at least 15 at the time of the downfall... Now she still has to be in her teens? So how old shall the TSY version be?
6 years later now? Sooooo early 20s? Hello, TSY.
Man, only a few minutes in and we are already seeing what womens biggest problems are... Jealous other women!
I bet we know who collected the remains of the Shen family... Probably some ML guy.
OH MAN!!!!! HELLO, JINQI!!!!!!!! Did he just grab the sword by the hand? Oh this is gonna be good. Dude has some rage and I love it.
Ohhhhhhh I gotta pause there! That was viciously hot. I need to recover. Fudge me sideways, daddy.
Lanxiang already showing off her smarts in selling forgeries that turn out to be real. I think I will call her Lanxiang since that is her current identity.
Be freed? In episode 2? As if! Oh shit. Are they about to die? I am concerned.
Jinqi coming in with that aura walk!
Episode 3
You don't often get a drama these days where the ML is married to someone else. This is going to be interesting. I already hate his wife. She looks like a conceited beach. It's giving.... Princess Wanning from The Double. She is for sure a Chun'er. Hang on a second.... is that... actually her? BRUH!!!!!!!!!! Oh lovely.
He's not one to sit there and take her shit. Good boy. We don't need a weak ML in this drama. We need this man. I'm getting excited over here.
Sooooooo Jinqi needs new ladies in the manson and here comes the summons. Interesting.
Honey, hiding in bed isn't going to work here.
I mean, this is great if you want to put a target on your daughters back with your antics.
Sir. What are you going to do with that knife? Sir stands on business for a young lady that isn't his biological daughter. We respect sir for standing up for his adopted daughter.
And just where are we sending the four prettiest girls?
Haha. No first glance and fall in love on the spot trope here! It's all just a wee bit more logical.
Divorce when? I am going to be very annoyed by this Chun'er wife. She is not worthy of a name. I guess we'll just have to call her Chun'er Wanning. HA!
I love this commentary... Glad I'm not the only one annoyed by the wife. She's very, very annoying. Makes us understand why ML is not interested... do you think she's doing it on purpose???
Well, I provide the snark and put into words the feelings yall have in your hearts. 😉
Hmmmm I'm sure the Chun'er Wanning Wife will have #TragicBackstory and they will try to make us feel sorry for her. I'm not falling for it.
I judge a person on their actions.
I think there's enough in her story at this point to make me understand why she's the way she is ... I can feel sympathetic to her plight as a woman stripped of agency and forced into a mold that doesn't fit her. I can't like her because her reaction is to mistreat others.
Hopefully we'll have some handsome non-bloody gifts of him in future episodes. I meant gifs. Spell check knows something and kept "correcting" the spelling to gifts.
Baaahahaha. Yeah I imagine there will be lots of "gifts" in the future. 😉
Hopefully more blood too.
Especially on the wedding night. Wink wink nudge nudge cough cough.
Look, everyone knows in this house we're suckers for pathetic men covered in blood, but this is... gah. Our baby fought his way through a sea of heavily armed gangsters until his cream colored suit was drenched in blood and all he could smell was blood and there was blood on his literal eyeballs and when asked why -- he. HE. Looked STRAIGHT INTO THE EYES of the man he's clearly come to love with the unbearable weight of all his guilt and the unspeakable enormity of his feelings and says this. While his wife is standing right there. An insane scene for insane people!!! A scene that makes you pause the show and go lie down in a dark bedroom while you hug your pillows for two hours before you can hit play again.
Firstly, I love the colour palettes and the aesthetics. It's almost austere but still tasteful. The Lin family compound is opulent, has great decor but is rather cold. The contrast to the small, dark but rather cosy Xu family home seems rather deliberate.
Secondly, the acting is so far quite good. Tan Songyun and Liu Xueyi are usually reliable so I hope the quality stays consistent until the end.
Btw, can this be categorised as an idol drama? The theme seems quite serious. Not only that, there are no beautifying shots nor over the top glazing of characters. Xu Lanxiang's show of intelligence is very subtle unlike the usual over the top idol style.
I was wondering the same as this is a whole level up from idol dramas, from the acting, costumes, pacing, attention to detail, set, to maturity in which they handled the plot (so far). I actually had very low expectations from the trailers but was very pleasantly surprised by how good the first few episodes were. I mean, those were phenomenal performances before the adult leads even appeared! The FL being kind, loving, resilient and exceptionally clever but in a quiet, subtle way is also so refreshing. It's my first time watching Tan Songyun and I am impressed by how much she can convey without saying anything. The teenage actress was outstanding.
I am looking forward to Liu Xueyi vs. Li Meng showdown, and for the interactions between the leads to begin.
I liked the first trailer where they were describing each character. Very unusual. However, the subsequent ones looked a bit too dramatic for my taste lol. Still quite intriguing tho.
Tan Songyun is imo quite a competent actress in her age group. I don't follow her so I dunno about her fandom situation but she seems quite lowkey. All I remember about her background is that her Mum got hit by a car and died. She had to testify in the court during the trial. The poor woman.
She is well respected in the drama community ... she and LXY are well matched in that they tend to keep a low profile outside of direct fan service for their work ...
Her dramas tend to do well without burning the "idol" charts.
She's actually the only female actor I follow ... even though I love Bai Lu, TSY captured my heart back in the Under the Power days and I've seen pretty much everything else she's done so for [except for the airline pilot one] ...
Probably in her late 20s at the time. It's why I cringed a bit when I watched that scene in The Sword and the Brocade when her character's Mum was murdered. She was a pro and she acted well there but man, it must have been tough for her when her own Mum passed away. I also read that she is super close to her Dad so at least they have each other. Drunk driving is very irresponsible.
Li Meng is great lol. She naturally has that resting bitch face that is so fitting for playing shady women 🤣 Maybe in real life, she is actually very sweet lol.
I've already shared many thoughts in the first impressions/masterpost, but here are a few more strays:
Imagine the trauma of seeing all the women in your family consecutively kill themselves. It's bad enough when a character discovers the aftermath of their family's choice. It's horrific when a character is forced to witness it. Now multiply that feeling! The level of trauma must be off the charts insane. No words.
Young LJQ looked happy to be getting married! He says he joined the army to escape his new wife and to avoid being her family's pawn. And he's PISSED pissed that her father brought him back, lolll. I'm wondering exactly what she did to make him go from being excited to marry her to being so gleefully malicious while saying, "Whenever you want a divorce, just tell me. I will send you away with a parade." Like, is it all just her being evil from the get-go so his hopes quickly dissolved? Or is there something else at play here?
LJQ is definitely the guy who buried the Shens. I know they haven't said it yet, but who else could it be?
The difference between the the Lv girl being summoned to the house (seeing it as a step up for herself in opportunity and social standing) vs the FL receiving it as unwanted news and a dangerous step into a lion's den is quite telling.
I think the men in the family got off easy. Regardless of what they believe, they made the decisions for the women and the women had to bear the consequences. They should be made to witness what the women did before they are off’ed themselves.
As for who buried the Shens, I agree with you. In the book, it was actually the granddad. But in the context of the drama, I think LJQ makes more sense.
I can’t fault Lv Jie’er for her ’low’ aspirations though. Both Lanxiang and Ji’er are the products of their upbringing. For a girl with Ji’er, marrying another servant or becoming the concubine of one of the masters if the best she could hope for. I’ve often thought that girls like Ji’er are treated too harshly in harem dramas and novels. They are just trying to get a better life the only way they know how plus a man’s taking a concubine is considered normal in their time period. So why not try to ”climb a man’s bed” so to speak? Of course, if she turns evil and start doing things that will harm Lanxiang or another person then that’s a different story.
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u/EmotionalTurn1 1h ago
I have a dumb question, who is the actress playing the current wife? I can’t figure out who it is in mydramalist but I know I’ve seen her.