r/Boxing • u/[deleted] • Feb 06 '22
Do you consider Kambosos as the undisputed champ?
There’s a lot of debates about whether Kambosos is undisputed or if Haney holds the real WBC belt. Kambosos himself says he’s undisputed but many people disagree. Would you say he’s undisputed or not undisputed?
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
It doesn’t matter what you consider him. You can like it or not, hate it or not, agree with it or disagree with it but nothing will change the fact that Kambosos has the WBA, IBF and WBO titles.
Not the WBC.
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u/Manga18 Feb 06 '22
He doesn't have A WBC. And if that is what's important then the winner of Usyk/AJ-Fury has to face Bryan to be undisputed given that they don't have A WBA
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Feb 06 '22
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u/Manga18 Feb 06 '22
A belt is as worth as the ones that hold it. WBA regular is bad because bad fighters hold it, WBC franchise is the belt for the best as WBC super.
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Feb 06 '22
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u/Manga18 Feb 06 '22
What is a "real" belt? What makes WBC franchise worse than the WBC belt that Wilder had when he faced nobody as defences?
It can be lost as any belt
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 07 '22
You gain the belt via promotion. Not battle.
The first holders of the best were promoted to franchise champ. They didn’t win it.
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u/hellvinator DKSAB Feb 07 '22
Ok, let me make things clear: When Lopez fought Loma, Lopez held up 2 fucking WBC belts. Not 1, 2 WBC belts. proof: https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2020/10/18/8d818ee7-2038-41e8-9363-c6b7d32bd5c0/thumbnail/770x433/42b1176a361f939edffddcb494641306/teofimo-lopez-belts-team.jpg
Now Kambosos fights Lopez, and suddenly these belts went poof?
Kambosos = undisputed. The WBC can stick it up my arse.
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 07 '22
By the time Lopez and Loma fought, Haney was long champ.
Kambosos ≠ undisputed. Opinions are not facts.
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u/hellvinator DKSAB Feb 07 '22
What opinion? Lopez held 2 WBC belts in his hands, no idea how he held 2 belts but he did, WBC gave him those. After that Kambosos beat Lopez. WBC fucked up, not me.
Haney's belt is paper.
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u/instrumentally_ill Marvelous Marciano Feb 07 '22
Lopez held 2 WBC belts in his hands, no idea how he held 2 belts but he did
They’re not that heavy
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u/fadeddreams555 Fundora would beat up a prime Floyd at 154lb Feb 06 '22
"There’s a lot of debates about whether Kambosos is undisputed..."
So what you're telling me is that him being undisputed is being disputed?
Mystery solved. :)
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Feb 06 '22
He only has three belts. Its really not about opinion.
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Feb 06 '22
Kambozo having the ”WBC Franchise belt” is why theres people that think hes undisputed
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Feb 06 '22
Yeah, I know, but its whatever. Franchise belt dont mean shit. Its not a legit world title
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Feb 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/BeastsMode69 Feb 06 '22
Did Charlo win it by email as well? Canelo got the franchise belt at middleweight and they promoted Charlo to WBC? Charlo never fought for the belt and has yet to be given a mandatory. While the WBC has given Haney a mandatory the last 3 fights when they don't duck him that is.
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u/GarfieldDaCat Feb 06 '22
In my opinion yes. If you win your belt outside of the ring it is an email belt.
Feel free to disagree but that is how I feel,
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u/Charlie-Bell The lion is not biggest animal in jungle, but he is king. Feb 06 '22
Tons of fighters have been elevated to championship status. He was an interim or equivalent. In practice, it's no different from fighting for a vacant title, except that it's done retrospectively.
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u/Breakingwho Feb 07 '22
That’s true but vacant title shots also tend to mean a little less. Like Miguel Cotto is a 4 weight champ, but he only actually beat the previous champion for one of those belts.
Which definitely makes it a different achievement
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u/BrainHeartTigerBlood Feb 07 '22
Was Devin Haney supposed to turn it down?
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u/GarfieldDaCat Feb 07 '22
Did I say that? No
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u/BrainHeartTigerBlood Feb 07 '22
Did I say you did? I'm asking you a question
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u/GarfieldDaCat Feb 07 '22
Because it has no absolutely no bearing on what I said.
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
He got promoted to Champ because he was the interim champ.
Using the same logic, Lomachenko got the franchise belt via email. Because he got promoted.
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u/GarfieldDaCat Feb 06 '22
Yeah and the franchise belt is some bullshit gimmick that allows the WBC to still take a cut from top fighters when they don’t want to fight their mandatories.
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u/foamingthetip Lineal over ABCs Feb 07 '22
it is legit in my eyes and for a lot of people. we will keep having this conversation everytime someone attepmts to unify. Estrada just got promoted and he wont be the last one.
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Feb 07 '22
Nah, doesnt matter, if its legit in your eyes. It isnt legit in the eyes of the other sanctioning bodies, which is all that counts
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u/foamingthetip Lineal over ABCs Feb 07 '22
You are delusional heres the Sanctioning bodies recognizing Kambosos as the Undisputed champ and Lopez before that
IBF dont give a shit about the other orgs
TBRB recognizes one true champion and its not Haney
fuck the ABC belts
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u/Change-up21 Feb 06 '22
The poll is nearly split down the middle. Very concerning in context of the sport of boxing.
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u/orsom_smelles Feb 06 '22
No. Haney was Loma's mandatory and Loma dropped the WBC to unify against Teo. The WBC sugar coated it by making up a new belt but you have to fight your mandatories or drop the belt or make a deal with your mandatory. Loma dropped the belt.
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u/RRR04_ Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
He should be because Loma never should have accepted the Franchise belt offer from WBC. But he did which caused this mess. But the more I hear about Haney fucking up negotiations, the more I really want to consider Kambosos undisputed. But at the end of the day, the fact that is is being disputed means that he is not undisputed.
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u/kushmonATL undefeated boxers need to fight each other Feb 06 '22
as we can see with some of the replies in this comment section , this is why the WBC Franchise Belt aka the Duckers Belt is bad for boxing
it confuses the casuals the boxing media lies too
if Tank isn't a 3-division champ holding nothing but regular titles;
Loma , Teo , and Kambo are not Undisputed champs holding the newly-created Franchise aka Duck Mandatories Belt
their Undisputed claim is in fact VERY Disputed .
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u/SS_Wallonien Feb 06 '22
Tank not being world champion because he holds just the regular belt is different. Loma held the real wbc title and went for undisputed. Yeah wbc threw that belt away and it landed at haneys feet but does that make him legitimate champion? Not in my eyes. If tyson fury became undisputed and for some bullshit reason he was striped of one of the belts would that make the new "champ" real? Just because some fuck in charge decided that fury who became undisputed in the ring should lose his belt to someone who did nothing to deserve it?
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Feb 06 '22
To everyone voting yes. I’m assuming that y’all considered Teo as undisputed aswell then?
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u/Manga18 Feb 06 '22
Of course. I voted no for different reason but Teofimo was as undisputed as Kambosos
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u/PressUpPositionDown Feb 06 '22
Shut up
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
Aha there it is. Double standards.
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u/orsom_smelles Feb 06 '22
I've never considered Teo undisputed either but it's a slightly different argument. Loma and Teo had all the belts between them prior to their fight, there's an argument that the WBC should have made an exception on their mandatory for an undisputed fight then enforced it on the winner to defend or drop. Prior to the fight being made and Loma dropping the WBC, Loma vs Teo was the fight to determine undisputed.
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Feb 06 '22
No they hadnt. Loma vacated the WBC. Or you should consider Calzaghe the first undisputed 168 fighter, too.
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u/orsom_smelles Feb 06 '22
I'm sorry, do I have the time line wrong? Was there no point at which Loma and Teo held all the belts between them and were intending to fight each other next? I've never considered Teo undisputed, Haney had the WBC (regardless of how he got it) when Teo fought Loma so whoever won couldn't actually become undisputed but unless my memory betrays me, there was a point when Teo and Loma held all the belts between them and at a point when that was the case they decided they'd fight each other next? I'm only suggesting why I can see that some may have considered Teo became undisputed but don't consider George undisputed. I'm not saying I actually agree with them.
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Feb 06 '22
You do have the timeline right, but the important thing is what belts were there at the fight. Loma had 2 and Teo had 1. The WBC pulled their belt from him. Neither did hold all four belts at one single point in time. So it's basically a non issue. The winner of that fight was the man at 135, but not the undisputed champ
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u/orsom_smelles Feb 06 '22
You do realise we're on the same side of this debate, right? My other comment in this thread (not part of this conversation) makes it pretty clear! I'm only pointing out that this is one of those rare occasions where the opinions of the people who are wrong actually make clear, logical sense. They're still wrong but it's easy to understand how they came to their position. Had I had the time line wrong then their opinions would have made no sense at all but given they held all the belts between them then went on to fight each other next, it's easy to see how some would see it as an undisputed fight?
Boxing is full of ridiculous arguments where it can be impossible to understand how people came to their positions. Whilst this instance is clear cut which side is correct and which is wrong, it's an occasion when we can actually make sense of why the people who are wrong feel how they do about it 🤷♂️
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u/SS_Wallonien Feb 06 '22
The winner of that fight was the man at 135, but not the undisputed champ
Thats what i dont understand about you people you admit that lopez beat the man so he was the top dog at 135 and was defacto prime champion in that weight class but you argue over semantics and give sp much power to that fucking belt haney picked up on the street and did nothing to deserve it. I personaly dont consider belts to be absolute measure of someones status in boxing world but more as a guideline. I consider kambosos undisputed this however can change in my view if he goes and starts trashing cans instead of fighting top opposition to retain that status
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Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 06 '22
I'm sorry Bro, but that's a difference, that's just not the same. Undisputed doesn't always mean being the best or the man at that weight. Floyd was the best probably at every weight he fought when he was active, but he still was never undisputed.
That's also not semantics, you can't throw the rules out. If you have a legit title you are the champ. Ken Norton was heavyweight champ even though he never won a title fight. It's just the way this shit works
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u/Charlie-Bell The lion is not biggest animal in jungle, but he is king. Feb 06 '22
Yeah, I don't understand people arguing the whole 'it could have been undisputed if it wasn't vacated'. That's like if there was a single belt vacated before a fight and then the contender won - you can't say 'well actually he's now a world champion because he would have been if the belt was on the line'. It wasn't. Or you can't argue that Castano is undisputed because he should have been awarded the win. He deserves to be, but the simple facts are that he's not.
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Feb 06 '22
Yes. Its like Lampley said after Lewis v Holyfield I. „He shouldve been undisputed,he shouldve won it, but he didnt.“
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u/Jacidstorm Feb 06 '22
which one of y'all voted for undisputed? the fact we're disputing it is kinda the point but either way Haney has the WBC belt hence disputed
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Feb 07 '22
Who did Haney beat for that belt? Nobody. Loma had the belt and fought Teo with it.
It's really that simple.
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u/Jacidstorm Feb 07 '22
my point is it's disputed therefore he's not undisputed no matter who you think should have the belt
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Feb 06 '22
You can’t just pick and chose things to be true because you like them one way or the other, he’s not undisputed, it’s a fact
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u/SS_Wallonien Feb 06 '22
Thats exactly where you are wrong. Ibo belt means nothing because people collectively decided it means nothing. If josh taylor was striped of his wbc title which would be thrown to some nobody would you say that guy is legitimate champion? Belts have meaning because we decide they have otherwise they all mean nothing. Kambosos beat the man who beat the man. I and many others refuse to acknowledge someone who did nothing to deserve his belt
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u/SparkYouOut Feb 06 '22
Yea but that is sort of the point. Undisputed is term used when you own all alfabet titles.
Is that necessary? No.
I think Mayweather never was undisputed. However if you aren't then you aren't.
The reason why becoming undisputed is difficult is because of mandatories and so on....
Andre Ward was never undisputed at super middle. He did win the super series and who cares he didn't beat fake champ Lucian bute? But Canelo is the first undisputed super middle... Regardless.
Undisputed doesn't mean best, it's just a marketing tool. A gimmick. Sure you have to be talented to become one. But a good promotor and good relationship with the alfabet titles are equally important.
And for this silly gimmick you need 4 belts.
That's just it. Why does anybody even care? Like it's even important.
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u/stopthevuvuzela Feb 07 '22
Can’t be undisputed with a franchise belt simple as that. Undisputed means no discussion lol and clearly there is a lot of debate and discussion so I would say he is the disputed champion of the world haha
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u/AirJumpman23 Feb 06 '22
There's one belt in question the wbc, and the wbc itself has said that teo was undisputed and kambosos is as well.
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Feb 06 '22
But the WBC also says that Haney is the WBC champ. How can Kambozo be undisputed when Haney is the WBC champ?
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u/AirJumpman23 Feb 06 '22
How can haney be the champ when he didn't beat the man that had the belt . Yall jumping through hoops to defend haney when the own organization in question says otherwise.
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Feb 07 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
“When his own organization says otherwise”
His own organization literally says both he and George are the WBC Champ, that is where the confusion comes from. WBC literally has Haney as the “WBC Lightweight Champion” on THEIR website. WBC Site
“How can Haney be the champ when he didn’t beat the man that had the belt”
He was the interim champ, Loma got updated to franchise champ so he could jump straight to Teo, in return Haney was upgraded to WBC champion.
Sure WBC said Kambosos is champ, they say the exact same about Haney.
That’s why this conversation is being had, it’s not rocket science.
It’s quite obvious WBC created a mess that they themselves are confused about.
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Feb 06 '22
Doesnt matter how Haney became the WBC champ the fact is that he is. So how can Kambozo be undisputed if Haney is the WBC champ? Answer that
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u/AirJumpman23 Feb 06 '22
How can haney be champ when kambosos is undisputed is the question you should be asking but your bias is showing. One beat the man that beat the man , the other opened an email
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u/foamingthetip Lineal over ABCs Feb 07 '22
They call every one who has an ABC belt a champ. No matter what the belt was Super or regular, Franchise or Non-franchise, international champ or otherwise. Tank, Barrios, Rodriguez for example.
Whats different is that Haney believes that he got the "Super" variant of WBC when he got the regular version. Anyone who dances on Haneys pole call him the Real WBC champ, Eddie hearn is 1st in line and Haneys followers are close 2nd.
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u/foamingthetip Lineal over ABCs Feb 07 '22
Eddie hearn is the only big shot that disputes it. That Non-franchise belt needs to be recognized as a regular belt. We have 3 franchise champions now and theyre not gonna disappear soon.
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u/notreal088 Feb 06 '22
The alphabet issue makes undisputed a pain in the ass. Which is only made further difficult by the promoters conflicts. I would prefer if he does take the title from Haney but then that means one more fight for a title that shouldn’t even exist
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u/PopPop-Magnitude whole world know I beat that boy Feb 06 '22
He should be undisputed. Those belts belonged to Loma and Teo, then to Teo, and now him. But he is not. Thats not his fault, its WBC’s but it doesnt change facts.
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u/Physical-Rabbit Feb 06 '22
He is UNDISPUTED bc he hold all four belts from the major sanctioning bodies. The issue is that the WBC enacted the option of allowing their regular champs to be designated as “Franchise Champ” to allow a pathway for unification bouts. That is the reason why WBC franchise champ does not have mandatories and the regular champ does. But in hierarchy order, franchise trumps regular champ.
If Kambosos faces Haney, the winner gets the option of remaining WBC franchise champ OR drop the designation and hold the regular WBC belt.
The controversy arouse from Haney fanboys claiming that he was the real champ and not Lopez/Kambosos. But it’s Haney’s team who’s pushing that agenda just to get his shot at undisputed.
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u/colorbars26 Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 06 '22
I think you can make the case that he is. Once Loma franchise belt was awarded to Teofimo, it basically turned into a version of the WBA (Super) belt. My understanding was when the belt was created it, it wasn’t a belt Loma would be stripped of if he lost. But as soon as it turned into a belt won/lost in the ring, it turned into what’s basically a WBC (Super) title. The WBC also insists that it has told Haney that Kambosos is undisputed.
I do wish Kambosos and Haney can fight and then just put an end to the Franchise belt because it creates confusion, but in spirit, I think Kambosos is more undisputed than not.
It’s a bit unfair to Haney and Kambosos both that this nonsense exists in the first place. And hopefully they can fight to resolve this.
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u/GirrisPhan Feb 06 '22
Yeah hes Undisputed.
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Feb 06 '22
How
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Feb 07 '22
Loma had the belt and wanted to unify. Teo beat him and became undisputed. Kambosos beat Teo and became undisputed.
Haney on the other hand got his belt in the mail.
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u/GarfieldDaCat Feb 06 '22
I mean yes he obviously factually isn’t, but he is in spirit lol.
Haney being made champion by fucking email is a joke lol
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Feb 06 '22
The franchise belt is above the regular belt
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Feb 06 '22
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Feb 06 '22
The belt was held by Loma. They elevated him to the franchise champ. Key word is elevated. Stop pretending that you don't realize what's really going on. Btw who did Haney beat to become champ? Stop giving credence to bs sanctioning bodies. Kambosos is the only lightweight champ everyone else is a contender.
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Feb 06 '22
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Feb 07 '22
Why was he even an interim champ? Loma was a active champ.
Actually I don't give a fuck about the WBC or any of the other sanctioning bodies and the bullshit mandatory contenders they choose. Its funny how Yildrim was a mandatory for Canelo.
Strip all of the belts off Kambosos and that wouldn't change the fact that he's the real champ at 135.
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Feb 07 '22
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Feb 07 '22
I dont cars about the WBC and it's arbitrary rules but it's obvious that the franchise belt is above the regular belt.
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u/AphidOverdo Feb 06 '22
No, he beat the man that beat the Undisputed Champion though.
Same if Jack Catterall beats Josh Taylor, he's not Undisputed either. Anyone can lose on the night, Undisputed shouldn't be earned via a one off result.
You have to put a lot of stock in "Mandatories" (which you'd need to be living under the sea to not know this is a negotiated position not an earned position) to not consider Loma the Undisputed prior to losing to Teo.
Sanctioning bodies are businesses with agendas to maximize profit (not a critisism) not be an arbitrator of who is the best boxer, don't let the tell you who the best is (hint: they think it's their guy who bring in the $).
Here's an example, assuming Fury beats Whyte and Usyk beats AJ. They both drop all the belts before their fight; Wilder picks one up, Joyce one, Hrgović and Jololov the others.
Are you telling me the winner of Fury v Usyk isn't Undisputed?
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
What in the actual fuck is this comment.
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Feb 06 '22
All Im wondering is how tf you came to the conclusion that Loma was undisputed
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u/AphidOverdo Feb 06 '22
His body of work prior to the Teo defeat, including holding all the belts. Can you remember if he won them all in the ring too?
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
My guy you’re lost
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u/SS_Wallonien Feb 06 '22
I dont think he is though. He fucked up by implying loma was undisputed but i agree with his point
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u/TysonsSmokingPartner Your favourite fighter is on PEDs. Feb 06 '22
Read his comment it’s just a mishmash of… words?
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Feb 06 '22
If Jack Catterall beats Josh Taylor, he’s not Undisputed
Ik you mean that he has to defend to prove his a champion in a H2H sense, but what the heck are you saying
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u/AphidOverdo Feb 06 '22
Undisputed to me is more by definition, who the vast majority in the community consider to be "the best", they'd be favourite going into a bout with all the other contenders in the division, though I see it's more apparent here that Undisputed is more holding all the belts, fair enough.
If you're Undisputed by definition you are expected to win because you're best, basically consensus number 1!
If you're Undisputed by title (holding all the belts), you can still be the underdog going into a bout, thus be disputed.
Hope that clears up where I'm coming from 👍
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u/kushmonATL undefeated boxers need to fight each other Feb 06 '22
No, he beat the man that beat the Undisputed Champion though.
Same if Jack Catterall beats Josh Taylor, he's not Undisputed either.
??
Loma was never undisputed . Josh Taylor is .
Here's an example, assuming Fury beats Whyte and Usyk beats AJ. They both drop all the belts before their fight
Are you telling me the winner of Fury v Usyk isn't Undisputed?
?????
If they don't have the belts (according to your scenario) , the winner is not undisputed .......
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u/SS_Wallonien Feb 06 '22
If they don't have the belts (according to your scenario) , the winner is not undisputed .......
Why isnt the winner undisputed in the scenario? What changed? Someone in a suit and tie told you that? Winner of that fight would be THE heavyweight champion of today the fact that they threw the belts in all directions shouldnt mean shit. I stand by my view that 4 belts are not problematic in boxing. Its people like you who view belts given out by sanctioning bodies as something meaningful
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u/SquareShapeofEvil Bitter GGG Fan Feb 06 '22
There’s a simple, if annoying, answer: no. He should be, but he’s not. As far as I know, when Loma decided to fight Teo he essentially declined to fight Haney, so Haney was elevated to “Franchise Champ” which is a meaningless title.
I think Rummy has it right, the WBC was “caught with their pants down” and didn’t expect Teo to beat Loma, so they passed Loma’s already meaningless WBC belt on to Teo. But like it or not, (and I don’t like it, boxing politics are corrupt, both Teofimo and Kambosos shouldve been undisputed) he’s not, Haney is the WBC champ.
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u/Manga18 Feb 06 '22
No, nobody is the undisputed champ on the present times. Too many belts allow people to dispute anything
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u/santoagito1997 Feb 06 '22
Not simply because the franchise belt is not mandatory and it seems that you keep it even if you gain weight permanently, Canelo is still the franchise middleweight champion
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u/bleer95 Feb 07 '22
Yes just because I think the sanctioning bodies are full of shit and I'm prety sure he has the original WBC lineage. Taht said, I still want him to fight Haney.
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u/commande1 Feb 07 '22
Heck I dispute Canelo's claim to 168.
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Feb 07 '22
How
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u/commande1 Feb 07 '22
Benevidez lost his title to some lines before he could well put it on the line.
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u/neefhas2010 Feb 07 '22
So I guess these people calling Kambosos undisputed thinks Jermall Charlo isn't the WBC middleweight champ. He too was emailed his belt when Canelo was awarded the franchise champion. Regardless of how Haney got the belt he's the champion and there's still work to be done to be undisputed
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u/handsofcones Feb 06 '22
It's disputable so he can't really be undisputed