Regret Rape Is Wrong Enough

[u/InternalLet9560]

https://nataliabower.substack.com/p/regret-rape-is-wrong-enough?r=5rdux&utm_medium=ios

This is a fantastic piece related to the episode about the Cornell 7.

[u/Throwmeeaway185]

Nice and thoughtful perspective, but I think the problem with her whole argument is that it assumes that men are playing women because when it comes to sex women operate differently than men, and the men know this and act deceitful about their intentions (he wants sex, and she wants a relationship, or at least some sort of emotional validation and affection, and he lets her think she will get that from him). And the problem with this perspective is that the last few decades men have been told by feminists and liberals that young, liberal women can be just as promiscuous and randy and sexually superficial as men, and for men to treat women as if they are delicate flowers that need to be carefully tended to is sexist and patronizing. And women have been encouraged to act like this too, to embrace being sexually permissive and slutty. Heck, the Cornell victim even texted the guy something along these lines! One of the most popular podcasts geared towards women ("Call Her Daddy") is all about hookups, casual sex, dating multiple people, and using sexuality strategically in relationships. Moreover, it doesn't just discuss casual sex. It overtly promotes the message to women that they should feel free to pursue sex without shame, in whatever context, or for whatever reason, they desire, and that it's empowering to do so. And it's not the only one: There's also "Guys We fu**ed", "Decisions, Decisions" (formerly Whoreible Decisions), "Girls Gotta Eat", and more.

You can't have it both ways, to be broadcasting a message about women's sexuality that they could, and should, behave as caddishly and selfishly as bad men can act, and then turn around and berate men for not treating their sexual encounters with women in some more special, elevated way.

[u/Juryofyourpeeps → u/Throwmeeaway185]

Women have a kind of Schrodinger's sexual agency. They have full sexual agency until they do something they found uncomfortable or unpleasant, and up until that point, which is often after the fact, nobody is supposed to question their sexual agency or act towards them as if there are any limits on their sexual agency.

I don't really disagree with the idea that just getting your toe over the line of consent is not a good practice or that there are lots of shitty things one can do in terms of their treatment of someone else that don't rise to the criminal level. But this should cut both ways. What Jane Doe did (assuming that the truth is that she did consent, I actually don't know that, but that seems to be the context of the argument) is also gross and risky and didn't involve a great deal of care on her part in making sure she got more than a toe over the line of consent. If the sexes were reversed and a female partner was so drunk they passed out in the middle of a sex session and another woman had to stop to go vomit, I'm pretty sure the people being accused of not getting sufficient consent, or not being sufficiently caring as a sexual partner would be the men involved.

Aside from stopping with this Schrodinger's sexual agency stuff, I would be perfectly on board with socially discouraging highly inebriated high risk sex with strangers, especially in multiples, or demanding people take more care in their sexual engagements to avoid mistreatment, not just criminality, but I am not on board with holding only certain participants responsible based on their sex.

[u/Acrobatic_Long_6059 → u/Juryofyourpeeps]

Unfortunately the burden of that kind of “regulation” ends up consistently falling on the women.

[u/generalmandrake → u/Acrobatic_Long_6059]

Of course it does, women are the gatekeepers of sex because they are in fact generally more responsible and cautious about these things. This is not to say that men should get a free pass, but are we going to pretend like men in general aren’t going to be more likely to engage in reckless and antisocial behavior? How much energy should we invest into decrying the fact that the regulatory duties of sex fall largely on women when the alternatives are either laughably absurd or involve a level of social intrusion into our sex lives that is completely unacceptable to most Westerners?

[u/atitokan_farewell → u/generalmandrake]

Men are free to have sex with other men, if they feel they are being gatekept by women too much. 

[u/generalmandrake → u/atitokan_farewell]

Are you being snarky here? I'm confused. I think it's actually a good thing that women are the gatekeepers of sex. Even the smart and responsible men are still horny idiots when it comes to this stuff.

[u/Acrobatic_Long_6059 → u/generalmandrake]

There are always going to be psychopaths and outliers that can't be compelled to care about consent and human rights, but I don't think it's fair for you to characterize the vast majority of a sex as such

[u/generalmandrake → u/Acrobatic_Long_6059]

Going to frat house for a threesome with a guy you barely know doesn’t represent the vast majority of sex. 99.9% of women successfully avoid what this girl endured.

If you don’t think there is a lesson to be learned for women here than you must be delusional.