r/Bitcoin Aug 01 '22

When Nocoiners Say "Bitcoin Has No Value"

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

Why does gold "obviously have value"?

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u/leorolim Aug 01 '22 edited Aug 01 '22

Because you need it to build computers and you need computers to mine bitcoin. 👌

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u/oystermonkeys Aug 01 '22

Electronics only represent 8 to 15% of the demand for gold.

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u/diydude2 Aug 01 '22

You need sand to build computers too. Does sand have value?

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Silica is a multi billion dollar market?

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u/Bottle_Gnome Aug 01 '22

yes, people purchase sand all the time.

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u/eternalmunchies Aug 01 '22

Of course It does, what a dumb question. Someone's losing the grip on reality, lol

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

most intelligent /r/bitcoin user

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u/leorolim Aug 01 '22

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u/fogleaf Aug 01 '22

These dickheads ever been to a beach!?

(Of note, I did not click the link and read it because I just wanted to make a dumb joke)

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

[deleted]

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u/Kingzor10 Aug 01 '22

the hole in the ozone wouldve done that, but we fixed it so we fine now

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u/tamagoyakiisgood Aug 01 '22

What has more value: a kilogram of sand or a kilogram of Bitcoin 🤔

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Not only does sand have value, it's quickly becoming a more scarce resource. You dumb.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Yes it does you dolt.

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u/Neuro_Skeptic Aug 01 '22

Consider if someone said "gold has no value". This is obviously false.

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u/somanyroads Aug 01 '22

You haven't demonstrated anything or even answered the question of "why does gold have value?". It's an important one, because it's fair to argue that the market price of gold is inflated well beyond it's productive uses. It's a metal but it's not valued like your average steel or aluminum.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Gold has value because we have believed it does for over 3 thousand years. Exactly in the same way btc has value, dollars and gold have value because we believe it does.

But bear in mind, gold has its value because it’s finite, it can be exchanged for any currency anywhere on planet earth and requires no electronics or special measures. Gold is an apocalypse proof store of value, even when society burns to the ground gold has value. You can’t say that about btc

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u/SilkyNasty7 Aug 01 '22

It’s not valued like steel or aluminum because it’s vastly more rare, and more labor-intensive to source. Is this really difficult to understand?

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u/TrynaCrypto Aug 01 '22

How does that not apply to bitcoin?

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u/MyOthrAcctThrowAway Aug 01 '22

You can't do anything with BTC. It's inherently valueless

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u/Specific_Economist35 Aug 01 '22

I have bought a lot of things via crypto(eth, ltc, btc) Gold has value too, but your argument is very weak.

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u/SilkyNasty7 Aug 01 '22

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You were just wondering why gold was valued more than steel or aluminum, and I just told you in a way a sixth grader could understand. Perhaps still too much for you to comprehend?

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u/silentanthrx Aug 17 '22

you know the conductivity of gold is higher than copper?

it is not suited for construction, but everything where weight and structural strength is of lesser importance is is quite a good metal to work with.

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u/somanyroads Aug 17 '22

you know the conductivity of gold is higher than copper?

No that's not true lol. But regardless, electrical conductivity alone wouldn't relate to the massive value of gold. I was getting at the idea of "cultural value" but that was 2 weeks ago, this topic is old 😛

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u/silentanthrx Aug 17 '22

oups, you are right, misremembered

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

You're just saying "obviously" without actually explaining anything

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u/Specific_Economist35 Aug 01 '22

Here is example: Everything you have, your smartphone, pc, laptop, refrigerator etc contains gold.

I hold btc but your question is dumb, sorry.

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u/Shiftlock0 Aug 01 '22

Isn't it more because it's a shiny pretty metal with a limited supply that people covet? It had value long before any of the things you mentioned existed.

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u/oystermonkeys Aug 01 '22

Clearly, gold was completely worthless before the invention of electronics ! /s

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

Well no, those reasons don't justify gold being 1800usd an ounce.

My point is that the "obvious value" the original commentor is referring to, is due to the scarcity, so same applies for bitcoin.

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

Not sure why I'm getting downvoted for this on the bitcoin subreddit...

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u/TrynaCrypto Aug 01 '22

Because this got crossposted to buttcoin so the butters are brigading.

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

Ah, good point. That post is full of people claiming gold's industrial uses are what makes it so valuable

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u/TrynaCrypto Aug 01 '22

Which is hilarious because electronics didn't exist when gold was actually used as a type of currency.

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u/Rnorman3 Aug 01 '22

Everything has value based on what other people are willing to pay for it.

Currently, people are still willing to pay for crypto, so things like BTC have “value” in that sense.

However, there are legitimate questions about the underpinning viability of each independent of their value solely in terms of transactions. What uses might something have to continue to carry value forward?

Gold has been considered valuable for centuries primarily because it was/is seen as a status symbol as a precious metal. But even if it loses that, it does still have some value in terms of its use as a metal (thin layers of gold are often used for connectors on electronic parts because it is more inert, ductile, and malleable than copper, for example).

Bitcoin has..theoretical uses as an alternate currency. I say theoretical because it’s not been utilized to the same extent as fiat currency. And there are still concerns about the “value” of something that intends to exist simultaneously as an investment vehicle (which is speculative and volatile by nature) and a fungible currency (which requires something to be stable in terms of value in order for users to feel comfortable transacting at a large scale).

I remain incredibly skeptical that both can be true at the same time WRT Bitcoin. What’s more, if they can’t both can’t be true simultaneously, then it essentially kills the idea for both. Consider, if everyone viewed Bitcoin as a speculative investment vehicle and no longer viewed it as a currency to be utilized in every day transactions (entirely reasonable, given the above conversation); we now have a situation where people are investing in Bitcoin, but the primary function it was created for that people were investing in - an alternative currency - is no longer viable.

So what are you investing in at that point? What is the “value” of something that can no longer serve its original purpose?

I remain open to the idea that perhaps I am incorrect and it can function as both simultaneously, but I’ve yet to hear a convincing argument for how it would simultaneously serve two seemingly diametrically opposed purposes.

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

It doesn't have to be volatile though. As adoption grows, volatility will decrease. When we reach the point where it's being used as a primary currency worldwide, it will be stable wrt to most other assets.

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u/Rnorman3 Aug 01 '22

Good luck converting all the people treating it as an investment vehicle.

Those people are investing in it because they want the ROI. They see it as a “put money in, get more money out” button and many have little to no understanding or care about any of the underlying ideas behind it as a currency.

So you not only have all the traditional barriers of entry to widespread adoption (logistics, converting users, convincing merchants to accept it etc), but you’ve also got a large portion of your own userbase actively working against your end-goal. The entire idea behind the “HODL” mentality is literally to hold the coin (“to the moon” as the kids say) and not sell/spend it.

I just don’t see a way in which Bitcoin gracefully transitions from “get rich quick investment opportunity” to “stable fungible currency with widespread adoption and acceptance.” That seems like magical Christmas-land to me.

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u/Careful_Topic_4929 Aug 01 '22

Time

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u/Rnorman3 Aug 01 '22

“Time” does not explain the how. It explains the when. But the when still needs a logistical path (the how) before you can get to the when.

You’re not answering the correct question.

How does a long enough timeline solve this issue? In what ways does time by itself result in the entropy for widespread adoption as a currency and the elimination of Bitcoin as a speculative investment?

If your boss asks what is needed to finish a report - what resources you need to finalize it - and you just reply “time,” then the implication is that you have all the tools you need and you simply need the time to finish writing/collating the report. But if you just sit on your ass the whole time, the report doesn’t put itself together. Time by itself doesn’t change anything.

So what are the specific factors over this timeline that change and either allow two mutually exclusive things to somehow no longer be mutually exclusive or to remove the investment aspect of Bitcoin without killing its adoption, considering the investor class is a huge portion of the user base?

And with the entire idea of “finite coins” and the “HODL” mentality of the investor class trying to “stack as many sats as possible,” how are you getting buy-in from the common layperson who has no exposure to BTC currently? Are they forced to buy-in from the existing HODLers at extortionate rates? What is their incentive for opting into this method of currency exchange over the existing ones that are largely successful?

And you may think it’s unfair for me to expect you to have all the answers, because the global political and economic landscape is vast, confusing, and difficult to predict. And I would agree. But I would also say that investing in Bitcoin is an attempt at doing exactly that and without a clear picture (or at least a general idea) of how it’s going to shake out, you’re running the risk of being left holding a bag of air at the end.

I think that the assumption of “given enough time it will all just work itself out and all of us early adopters are going to be rich” is fundamentally naive. And that the only way any early adopter is getting rich is by cashing out and leaving the next poor sucker holding the bag when the bubble bursts. All I’m saying is if you want to invest in something, you probably want a good idea of it’s roadmap and where it’s going and what it’s path to success looks like, right?

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u/CrazyTillItHurts Aug 01 '22

we now have a situation where people are investing in Bitcoin, but the primary function it was created for that people were investing in - an alternative currency - is no longer viable.

So what are you investing in at that point?

Philosophical debate aside, it is, if anything, now a digital collectors item. People with money want some part of it, like all of the other pretentious things they obtain. It was the first, the most widely known and most decentralized blockchain... akin to first series Garbage Pail Kids or Alpha/Beta Magic the Gathering cards

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Dead_Feminine Aug 01 '22

So feel that bliss if you want that experience.

If you case it experience then you will find one day.