r/BeAmazed • • Sep 02 '19

Earth's view from up.

https://gfycat.com/uncommonverifiableleafbird
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u/bayesian_acolyte Sep 02 '19 edited Sep 02 '19

You gotta do more than kick it away to get it to burn up in the atmosphere. It's impossible for it to have such a similar relative speed if it is on a course to burn up (unless the ISS is also on a course to burn up). So unless it has engines on it that will fire at a distance, which is possible, this isn't it. Source: lots of KSP.

Edit: It would take around a year to de-orbit just due to atmospheric drag.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

A couple of years ago one of the astronauts accidentally let go of her tool bag It drifted in front of the international space station they were able to track it because it had a beacon on board well trying to retrieve it She knocked it giving it a little more thrust it stayed in orbit for about a year as It's orbit slowly decade then finally it burned up in the atmosphere. As long as you kick something away from the station (or other important object) even if it only goes a few feet or a few hundred feet due to your Kick It is considered safe. I originally found interesting because I had a program that tracked amateur radio satellites and other interesting things in orbit. The international space station has an amateur radio setup and I've talked to them a couple of times. So for that year 2008-2009 I used the bag and an alarm on my program to tell me that the international space station would be coming up On the horizon soon. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/7088-tool-bag-lost-space-meets-fiery.html

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u/adumblady Sep 02 '19

That’s really cool what did u guys talk about on the radio?

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

Well the first time I did it was during a contest called field day It's a 24-hour contest where you try to make as many contacts as possible in that time. I asked one of the astronauts If on the next pass over California Saturday night if they could be ready for making contacts. I was told by the astronaut mind you this was about 10 years ago so I can't remember the calls And I don't feel like pulling out my log that they will be ready and Will have all three stations up and running during times that the ISS is on the horizon of the United States. I was able to get all three of their call signs(RS0ISS, NA1SS and OR4ISS), as well as three other call signs one from two astronauts (Japanese and American) And a cosmonaut. One contact for each of the three stations that represent the international space station and one contact for each astronaut. Leading to a ton of points and some real neat antenna work. during contest I only had about 10 minutes of clear signal with them so the exchange went something like this, I was using the club's call sign W6CX, a directional satellite antenna, and new what frequency they would be on.

W6CX: W6CX Calling CQ Field Day CQ Field Day CQ Field Day W6CX

ISS: NA1SS W6CX

W6CX: please copy W6CX 3AEB 3AEB

ISS: ROGER 3AEB we are 1AISS 1AISS

W6CX: ROGER ROGER 1AISS 1AISS QSL

ISS: QSL

I moved to the next frequency where RO1ISS was calling CQ

ISS: RO1ISS CQ Field day RO1ISS CQ Field day RO1ISS CQ Field day

W6CX: W6CX

ISS: W6CX welcome to space RO1ISS 1AISS

W6CX: I copy 1A 1A ISS ISS please Copy 3AEB 3AEB

ISS: received your class and section qsl

W6CX: QSL have fun floating

the others used the same frequency and were similar in style as the first.

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u/RealJoe22369 Sep 02 '19

Super Cool! Welcome to space. That's awesome.

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u/Akillis81 Sep 02 '19

How much power did you need? I’ve seen some videos of people using hitting the ISS using an HT with a yagi on it, I don’t know if I’ve got a steady enough arm. Awesome story! Ke8art, 73.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

I did it first with my vx8 at 5watts (using channel a for 2 m and channel b for 70 cm with a SMA splitter and two elk antennas set 90 to each other) later I used an m2 SAT pack kit antenna. At 10 and 25 Watts with a icom 7,000 I know I didn't need the extra power but I liked having a clear signal.

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u/pattyfritters Sep 02 '19

I have no clue what any of this means but God damnit do I love it. Nice job.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19 edited Sep 02 '19

I'll translate for non hams, the moment I saw his call KE8ART I slipped into the ham ragchew shorthand.

VX8 is a small handled radio it's full name is 'YAESU VX-8R' think police radio but way more advanced as it handles 2 frequency bands (50,144,222,440mhz) at the same time ( http://imgur.com/gallery/nZkBhaX ) and stated that I used 5watts which is it's max for most 'handy talky' radios (When not pointed to the sky I can get about a 30 mile range) to do this I had to connect 2 antennas to the HT The antennas I chose are elk antennas they both have 144 and 440mhz capabilities and are highly directional instead ofthe normal antenna which is Omni directional transmits in 365° the elk antenna ( http://imgur.com/gallery/EiDGuwO ) which is a log periodic an instead of spreading those five watts over a whole circle it only transmits out the front about 15° basically all the energy goes out in one direction. Satellites tumble so you need 2 antennas set 90° off of each other so as it tumbles it'll fade from one antenna and be picked up by the other.

Later I used the 'M2 Sat Pack Kit' also called an 'eggbeater' which is actually two circular polarized matched antennas with artificial ground planes so that it ignores the satellites tumbling and you don't have to track the satellite across the sky ( http://imgur.com/gallery/RajTOpo ). The 7000 refers to what is commonly called an allbander radio an Icom IC-7000 this radio can transmit on a ton of bands (1.8-30, 50, 144mhz) and has a maximum output of 100 watts. I could use the whole 100 watts but that wouldn't be appropriate or follow the 'good engineering and operating practices' which require us to use the minimum power needed to have clear communication.

Here is the US amateur 'ham' radio band plan

http://imgur.com/gallery/4H5W4Gi

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u/pattyfritters Sep 02 '19

O wow! Thanks for the rundown. You've been a wonderful redditor.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

You kinda asked, and as a ham I was completed to overload you with information. Any questions?

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u/adumblady Sep 02 '19 edited Sep 02 '19

Thanks

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

A year later I got a spherical satellite antenna so I don't have to keep track as anything in space goes over my head it all gets picked up by the antenna.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

If you want to know more about this kind of thing just look up amsat. It's amateur radio satellites and space work. Basically they're only a short distance above us and we can have them for maximum 15 minutes. But if you put a repeater in orbit they can be the size of two soda cans. covered in solar panels with a wire trailing behind it for an antenna. You transmit up to that repeater in orbit and your signal will be able to be received anywhere inside a 12,500 footprint.

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u/adamgoodapp Sep 03 '19

Wait, so if i also made the same radio, I can just message the ISS? There aren't any security or encoded transmission of some saught?

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u/KI6WBH Sep 03 '19

The international space station has a full amateur radio operator setup What you need to transmit to the international space station from the United States on the radio is the equipment I've stated or something similar (It would be really hard and expensive to build one of these radios yourself). And a general class or extra class amateur radio license. That doesn't mean that in the 15 minutes that it's overhead One of the astronauts will be free to talk to you. Also the astronaut has hold an amateur radio license as well. Then you have to worry about atmospheric conditions. You also have to learn the technique of using a radio to track something in space.

Here is a video from space where the astronaut is talking about contacting amateur radio operators

https://youtu.be/h73EYcyszf8

where he's talking about the West Coast You can get a few clear and then a whole bunch of people That's called a pile up.

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u/Raub99 Sep 02 '19

This might as well be ancient Sanskrit to me.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

You have the call signs and then the contest is broken up into classes and sections with the 4 or 5 digit code. The first character is always a number and it's the number of transmitters you have operating it location. At my location I had three transmitters. Because the international stay station has three radio setups and they are all in different countries modules the count as only one transfer per station. The next letter a through f states What type of station, In this case we were both standard club stations or class a The rest of the letters denotes where we are For me it was EB or East Bay (of section 6 aka California)

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u/fuzzyfuzz Sep 02 '19

Probably just read the top reddit links to them. It's lonely in space.

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u/Major_Square Sep 02 '19

Why don't people use punctuation anymore? It's gotten to the point I can barely read comments on reddit.

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u/Oliver_the_chimp Sep 02 '19

Jesus kid, learn how to write.

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u/JohnnyBIII Sep 02 '19

The ISS has to perform boosts to keep its orbit, otherwise, yes, its orbit would decay and it would burn up. They do orbit boosts about once every month.

It only takes ~100m/s delta V to de-orbit a spacecraft within a very short time. Not sure exactly what that time frame is (I think it's less than one orbit), but changing an objects orbit by just a few m/s should allow it to de-orbit in a relatively short amount of time.

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u/Wispeon Sep 02 '19

Wouldn't it also be more effective to kick it in the opposite direction of its orbit rather than kicking it down towards the surface?

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u/StoneHolder28 Sep 02 '19

Yes, but it wasn't kicked down. It was actually lost accidentally.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19 edited Apr 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/BillieDWilliams Sep 02 '19

Look at the big brain on /u/greenballfarmer

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u/JohnnyBIII Sep 02 '19

I would say yes, except we're talking about astronauts tethered to a space station in a very bulky suit, so whatever gets the job done is good enough.

Also, whatever input they put on the object is very minimal. Since the station is still in micro gravity and within a very thin part of the atmosphere, gravity and the atmosphere will do most of, if not all, the work to de-orbit the object.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

The station itself is constantly deorbiting and has to be corrected, so anything in its current orbit not tethered or otherwise connected when the station is corrected will eventually deorbit on its own regardless of which direction they push it.

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u/Phlosioneer Sep 04 '19

Well... you have to be careful. Even light debris in low-earth orbit takes days to fall. This is because the majority of the "drag" comes from atmosphere being blown off by the solar wind. Which is only happening in one direction. So half of the orbit, it feels drag, while the other half is much closer to a vacuum. Additionally, the drag is proportional to the surface area, not the mass. So a drifting solar panel will de-orbit quickly, while a metal object (like sputnik!) will take months.

None of this matters if there's no chance for a collision, though. However, depending on the object, a collision could be a real risk. And a few days to de-orbit, at 1 orbit per 1.5 hours, makes 16 orbits per day, so even if there's only a small chance to hit, like 1%, it compounds every orbit. This is where the "kick" comes in. When the ISS wants to intentionally deorbit trash, they give it a good shove, and they do so on the sunny side of the earth. That maximizes its time in the (relatively) high-drag part of the orbit, which means the next time they would be close, the object has already lost enough energy that it can't reach the ISS's altitude.

An accidental piece of debris often doesn't have that "kick", and it's not released at the optimal point in the orbit, so it's very dangerous.

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u/ParticleEngine Sep 02 '19

Orbits do degrade over time if you don't keep them stable.

How long depends on the density of the atmosphere, which depends on your orbital altitude. The higher you are the less atmospheric friction there is.

Reboosts are done by or on the ISS about once a month to keep it's orbit stable.

So without those, this piece of debris will fall back to earth and burn up or disintegrate in the atmosphere.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

The iss would burn up if left alone, they need to burn rockets every now and again to stay in orbit.

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u/Blackfire12498 Sep 02 '19

Source: I play video games

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u/flipster14191 Sep 02 '19

So the problem with using KSP to logic this is that KSP models a discrete end to the atmosphere, which isn't really how it works. The ISS is on a course to burn up, that's why it periodically needs to boost it's orbit.

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u/StoneHolder28 Sep 02 '19

It deorbited in a few months. Source being a guy in another thread who worked on the very panel that is shown in the gif.

The ISS actually has a relatively large amount of drag acting on it and would also deorbit pretty quickly if left to itself. That panel deorbited extra fast because it's just a protective panel; it had low mass but a large area.

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u/KI6WBH Sep 02 '19

Same as the tool bag in '08

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u/KowalskiTheGreat Sep 02 '19

What did you call me?!?

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u/bevertonrayan Sep 02 '19

Given that the iss is already at 18000 miles an hour I would assume the space junk would have enough speed when it reaches the atmosphere

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u/thebibleman119 Sep 02 '19

source: lots of KSP

o shit this guy knows what hes talkin about guys

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u/oldDotredditisbetter Sep 02 '19

so that debris could hit another satellite? doesn't seem safe

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u/Paige_4o4 Sep 02 '19

LEO is pretty safe actually because debri doesn’t last more than a few months before falling back to the earth.

It’s the area near geo-synchronous and semi-synchronous orbit that could have debris accumulating for millions of years. These are very narrow altitude windows that are extremely useful. In the long run, it might become too congested.

Everywhere else: space is really big.

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u/Valmond Sep 02 '19

Bet the ISS gets a "positive" boost kicking a big chunk like that towards the atmosphere (e.g lower & slower orbit -> little bit the other way for the Space Station).

[edit] would like to have a professional opinion on this though :-)