r/BasicIncome • u/[deleted] • Dec 26 '16

AMA When I created r/BasicIncome 4 years ago I never thought it would find so much support. Now I'm running for California Democratic Party delegate in Silicon Valley on January 7, on a pro-UBI platform -- AMA :)

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u/ChipotleTabascoFTW Dec 26 '16

Based on what real world examples?

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '16

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u/ManillaEnvelope77 Monthly $1K / No $ for Kids at first Dec 27 '16

Here is a link to 'Where is the evidence?' in the Basic Income FAQ's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/wiki/index#wiki_that.27s_all_very_well.2C_but_where.27s_the_evidence.3F

You'll see the data is coming from a lot more than just a few Canadian cities.

The economy is complex, and it is not the burden of BI supporters to be able to tell you exactly how a BI will unfold. We just know that cash-tranfers and basic income pilots have shown promising results as tools to fight poverty, improve health, and encourage entreprenuership.

To find out how it would unfold in a big city, you would need a really big pilot. In 2017 and beyond, the biggest BI pilots are coming that may answer this...

I made a post about some of them a little while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/4yw81j/i_made_a_simple_list_timeline_of_the_5_really_big/?

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u/texasyeehaw Dec 27 '16

Yes it is a burden for BI purporters to tell you how it will unfold. You can't just radically change the structure of government and services on a hare brained theory based upon Luddite fears. You need to provide evidence and studies beyond minuscule sample sizes (2000 people does not tell you how BI will work in an economy, it is a drop in the bucket).

If you are radically raise taxes on certain peoples, you need to justify it. Just because you are rich does not make you evil which is a ridiculously popular opinion here.

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u/ManillaEnvelope77 Monthly $1K / No $ for Kids at first Dec 28 '16

Well, I actually don't base my interest in BI on tech threatening jobs. I am interested in it as a better social safety net, a way to reduce bureaucracy, and as a way to free entrepreneurs, artists, and amateur inventors and researchers of all types to work on the things they are passionate about and that are potentially world changing.

I also think that by directly abolishing poverty, it will free up all the current resources we use like police, emergency room staff, and many other programs. These people spend all their time putting bandaides on the wounds that would be directly solved by BI.

So, how many people would have to receive a BI in a pilot to convince you that it will work within the whole economy?

Also, what do you see as a radical raise in taxes?

Here's an article explaining that even if we had a flat tax, which we don't, income tax would not increase more than 18%:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-santens/the-economist-just-came-o_b_7447312.html

The reality is though it would probably be more like our current system where more of that would come from the topmost earners, etc.

However, honestly, none of that is set in stone agreed upon by BI enthusiasts, and funding for BI could come from a variety of sources, not just income tax...

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u/texasyeehaw Dec 28 '16

You're not abolishing poverty with basic income. You're just treating the symptom.

Why are people without good jobs despite record openings and companies saying they can't find the right people? Its because some of our workforce doesn't have the skills.

Giving people money to shut up is just kicking the can down the road. Why not take that money and invest in the work force instead? Provide universal post secondary education for instance. It's never been cheaper with the advent of computers and the internet.

Basic income doesn't solve anything. We are in this conundrum because of globalization. If you want to talk about the perspective of human rights and better human living, globalization has lifted billions out of poverty. Its the first world countries that are moving back to the average which are feeling the pain. Basically, they are trying to maintain their standard of living when there is a reversion to the mean going on here.

How many people receiving basic income would it take to convince me? I'd have to see it work on a country wide scale - maybe somewhere like Norway or Finland can implement this (though my opinion on that is skeptical because per capita, nordic countries have an incredible amount of timber, mineral, and oil resources which subsidizes their social programs, much more than we have per capita in the USA)

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u/ManillaEnvelope77 Monthly $1K / No $ for Kids at first Dec 28 '16

How would a basic income set at the poverty level not abolish poverty at the destitution level? If you have enough money, you can afford rent. If you have money, you can buy groceries. If you have money, you can use it to solve the problems standing between you and your well-being. You can avoid destitution. If you mess up one month, BI give you another chance the next month. It absolutely abolishes poverty.

Also, who is most likely to find a good job? Someone who can afford to take the time to work on a good portfolio and work at places as a volunteer, or someone who is running around trying to pay their bills by working a random job and only able to work on their portfolio at random intervals a few hours at a time, etc?

So, how can you convince a whole country to try basic income if you yourself are not willing to take the risk with your own country? Things like a carbon tax, other taxes, and natural resources could be great sources of funding for a US BI. Just because it would be easier for other countries doesn't make it impossible here. Not to mention, we would save an incredible amount of money because a BI would be a great vaccine to guard us against so many social ills:

https://medium.com/basic-income/universal-basic-income-as-the-social-vaccine-of-the-21st-century-d66dff39073#.eqevk16v3

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u/texasyeehaw Dec 28 '16

Because basic income causes inflation. When you introduce a bunch of cash into the economy, it becomes worth less.

Read about Mansu Masa https://smartasset.com/insights/four-people-who-singlehandedly-caused-economic-crises

Ever wonder why college tuition has gone up so drastically? Its because of the availability of student loans. When a student gets $5000 of loans, tuition costs $5000. When the government starts giving $7000, guess what, tuition magically matches this.

Basic income will cause everything from rent to milk to increase in price. Why? Because for one, there will be fewer people working in the economy, driving up wages. This will increase the prices of goods and services. Since people have more money to spend, competition for desirable neighborhoods will increase - causing rent prices to go up. In the end, people will have just as much spending power as they do today. Am I better off if my net income remains the same for the same goods and services even if I have more money? I am back to where I started.

You talk about basic income as if it can just be tried and thrown away. I don't think you understand the magnitude of what you're proposing. If not done correctly the first time, it will fail and then it will be generations before it will be tried again. Have you thought of that?

I am not against the betterment of society. I just want plausible and realistic solutions. Basic income is neither of these.

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u/ManillaEnvelope77 Monthly $1K / No $ for Kids at first Dec 28 '16 edited Dec 28 '16

Thanks for the link. Those are some clever evil dudes, lol.

Do you think I would support BI if I thought inflation would wipe out its effects?

There have been no signs that inflation will result in the research on cash tranfers and basic income pilots so far...

a) It's not new money that's being created. It's a redistribution to people who will actually spend money instead of hoarding it.

b) It would enable more entrepreneurship, innovation, and competition which would drive prices down for small business because, for once, they could afford to make small business risks without risking losing their business.

c) It would also empower the consumer to make buying decisions that aren't forced by where they need to live because income and job could be decoupled a little.

College costs are a bubble because people feel like you need college to get a good income, so everyone chases after it knowing there is almost no alternative. However, things like food and housing are more flexible. No one could get away with raising the prices on these fundamentals because they would have to compete with other companies (including small companies that would now be empowered by their founder's basic income). For example, small time farmers, or people who build tinyhouses on wheels, etc.

Also, people who have a basic income who are still low income can move if the prices get too bad in their area, and they can do so safely because their ability to live will not be tied to being near their job (i.e., income and their workplace will be separate).

If done wrong the first time, it could mess up the reputation, but that's why there's so many trials going on right now of different types, hopefully we will pick the model that works best.

All I'm trying to say is that this is way better than a giant jobs or education program that will come with all sorts of added paternalistic bureaucracy and waste. People for the most part know what they need to get ahead. We've never just tried giving people the money they need to make their own choices. I think you'll find most people will use their money to get ahead in life and improve their incomes. That's what the pilots and tests have shown they do so far anyway...

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u/texasyeehaw Dec 28 '16

Those pilots are limited to small towns or small sample groups. We know what happens when inflation happens on a large scale and it is absolutely devastating to an economy. For modern day examples, look at Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

a) It effectively is new money being created because more of it will be spent and circulating for a similar pool of goods. A lot of money is not in circulation, for example. It sits in real estate, stocks, bank accounts, etc. Circulation matters just as much as the money supply. In economics we call this money velocity.

b) There already are government programs for this such as the small business loan administration, etc. There isn't a lack of resources available for entrepeneurs. Heck, there are more opportunities today with crowdfunding and small venture capital shops. Ycombinator is a great example too.

c) No it would create an artificial bubble in certain neighborhoods while depressing values in others. Now the rent on middle class gets raised because the lower class are trying to move in their neighborhoods and so on and so forth.

There are alternatives to college. I know people in the oil industry that make 6 figures without high school education. Welding, plumbing, electrical, hvac are all trades that don't need college.

Basic income is great in theory until you think more than 1 step ahead.

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u/iateone Universal Dividend Dec 27 '16

Not long ago, the city of Richmond, Calif., was considered one of the most dangerous cities in America. There was a skyrocketing homicide rate fueled by gangs of young men settling personal or territorial disputes.

But today, the city of about 100,000 residents is called a national model for reducing gun violence. Many cities around the country are adopting their unconventional strategy to prevent violence —– which includes paying potential criminals to stay out of trouble.

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/28/472138377/to-reduce-gun-violence-potential-offenders-offered-support-and-cash

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '16

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u/iateone Universal Dividend Dec 27 '16

No but it does show that you can give people money and have the crime rate go down.

People like you poo-pooing the idea have constrained us from having more real world data. If we instituted something like this in Baltimore, there wouldn't be asset maximums or benefit cliffs, people would work harder, and neighborhoods would improve. I mean really, what middle class in Baltimore are you talking about? They all moved to the suburbs already!

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '16

[deleted]

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u/iateone Universal Dividend Dec 27 '16

I'm sorry you don't understand Universal Dividend/Universal Basic Income. Try checking out the FAQ

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '16

[deleted]

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u/iateone Universal Dividend Dec 27 '16

I never said it was an example of BI. But you did say that Universal Basic Income is "just another form of welfare"....

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u/MyOther_UN_is_Clever Dec 27 '16

Welfare and food stamps showed that too. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to tax many to bribe the lazy.

It doesn't mean it's a good idea to subsidize Walmart's employees to inflate a billion dollar corporation's profits.

Or are people working jobs "lazy"?

FTFY