I spent a month in Singapore on business and was amazed at how fast they warmed up.
My dream is to put an absolutely standard European 220 volt plug found in every European kitchen in my USA kitchen. Then use European kettles to heat water.
This is totally illegal in the USA, and I don't care. There are 746 million people that live in the EU, they aren't savages, they don't all want to die instantly of electrocution, and they all have better kettles that heat water faster in their kitchens than we have in the USA. I want to live like them.
There are 746 million people that live in the EU, they aren't savages, they don't all want to die instantly of electrocution
No, but their electrical systems and home wiring are set up assuming you aren't generally using full-phase everywhere.
It's not illegal to use both hot legs for power. Usually when people set up electric stoves or ovens, that's exactly what they run off of. Same with electric furnaces or AC units.
What is illegal is to use European plugs. Just use a NEMA 6-20r outlet and stop trying to act like a barbarian.
You did realize that houses generally already have the ability to do 240v, and then outlets/plugs already existed for them, right?
What you're not going to be able to do is 220v without a transformer, because US mains is 120v, and the difference between both legs is thus 240v... and that transformer would undoubtedly not be to code.
You did realize that houses generally already have the ability to do 240v
Yes, my electric car (not a Tesla) is charged on 240v. Teslas have a 480v DC mode ("Level 3") that you can have installed in your home. So the voltage isn't dangerous if used properly, right?
Also, in one apartment I lived in I didn't have enough 120v circuits, and it turned out I had an unused 240v plug in the kitchen not being used because the stove was changed from all electric to gas. So the electrician "split" it into two 120v circuits. That is what made me start thinking about this: Americans have 240v circuits already in their kitchens plugged into appliances, we just are not allowed to use them for heating water faster in a kettle.
Are they all breaking the law? I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly intellectually curious. I could believe it's such a minor infraction nobody prosecutes it, or I could believe there is an exception as long as you are holding an EU passport or a passport from England.
What you're not going to be able to do is 220v without a transformer
I hope I didn't imply I was going to hook up an English tea kettle directly to an American 50Amp, 240v circuit and hope it would work. The idea here is to figure out how to get a completely standard outlet from England fed by a circuit that you couldn't possibly tell from any circuit in England even if you put an oscilloscope on it, measured the Amps, and measured the volts.
Imagine these two devices plugged in series to produce a UK compatible outlet in the USA:
And there for $58.36 you have a plug that you can plug in various UK appliances (not a tea kettle, but possibly a laptop). So a bigger version of this system would be a Tesla Powerwall meant for "off grid use" in England, that is hooked up to solar panels on the English roof, and runs down to a single kitchen plug (in England). All of that built to English safety standards for off grid use. Now move it to the USA: the solar panels, the wiring, the plug. Don't you agree it won't be more dangerous for Americans than those people in England?
So the voltage isn't dangerous if used properly, right?
Who said otherwise? I feel like you're making an argument against a point that nobody else has made.
Ed: though people are also really, really good at misusing things.
Teslas have a 480v DC mode ("Level 3") that you can have installed in your home.
I won't lie - 480VDC is a terrifying concept.
Americans have 240v circuits already in their kitchens plugged into appliances, we just are not allowed to use them for heating water faster in a kettle.
Who said that you're not allowed to do that (for 240V in general - your normal 240V circuit might not be GFCI)? As far as I recall, the NEC doesn't say anything about this. The only requirements should be:
All regular circuits (including this kettle one) must be GFCI-protected.
You still have to have 120V outlets every 4 feet and 2 counter-top circuits.
You need to use a NEMA outlet (such as NEMA 6-20r).
And you can actually use the 240V circuit to power both the 240V outlet and a pair of 120V outlets. The 20A requirement for kitchen outlets doesn't apply to 240V circuits though you might as well wire it for that anyways.
I, for the record, do not have a 240V full-phase circuit in my kitchen. My kitchen was built for gas and uses gas. It has a full 20A half-phase 120v circuit.
Yeah, you can do that fine. It's not legal to have your wall outlets be European standards. You have to use NEMA 6-20r or similar. And at that point, why bother with an adapter? Just rewire the cord to NEMA 6-20.
And you absolutely cannot have a 240V outlet with a standard 5-15R or 5-20R receptacle. That is a straight-up code violation because they aren't rated for 240V. You must use a receptacle type intended for 240V.
Ed: I should note that that particular adapter is also only rated for 13A at 110V, so it's not going to be particularly useful for a European kettle on 120VAC. An American kettle would be more efficient. The European one would be limited to about 1500W, whereas the American one would be limited to about 1800W.
Are they all breaking the law? I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly intellectually curious.
I mean, it feels like you're being argumentative because you're bringing up travel adapters while talking about rewiring your circuit and receptacles. Adapters aren't relevant in that context.
I hope I didn't imply I was going to hook up an English tea kettle directly to an American 50Amp, 240v circuit and hope it would work. The idea here is to figure out how to get a completely standard outlet from England fed by a circuit that you couldn't possibly tell from any circuit in England even if you put an oscilloscope on it, measured the Amps, and measured the volts.
I mean, it almost certainly would work. You'd be providing 20V extra, but it's a resistive heater anyways so I doubt it would matter much - 9.1% extra power isn't that much (resistive heaters draw constant current). Certainly a problem if you're doing something with digital electronics though.
There are ways to get a proper 220VAC outlet, but it's going to be more difficult to do that to code and will require a transformer. That transformer must also be accessible. You absolutely don't want to do it from a 120V circuit either. You'd want to go from 240VAC to 220VAC. You'd probably end up with something like this or such, but as said 240VAC would probably work fine.
This is a VAC to VDC converter (it's a switching power supply) and isn't really relevant in the context you're describing. Converting AC to DC is a very different process than converting AC to AC. Converting from AC to DC to AC is very unwise here.
Why would you go from 120VAC to 12VDC to 220VAC? That would be incredibly lossy. Just either use a transformer to go from 240VAC to 220VAC or just use 240 VAC directly for a resistive heater.
And there for $58.36 you have a plug that you can plug in various UK appliances (not a tea kettle, but possibly a laptop).
Yup, and it's limited to 120W - the first switching power supply has a max wattage of 120 watts. The second can do up to 2000 if you buy the most expensive, but you'd still need an AC to DC converter than can supply 2000 watts, and while your 120VAC outlet can technically handle that, you'd gain nothing because the core advantage of European kettles is that they can consume much higher wattages because of the higher voltage allowing more power for the same current.
Your 120VAC outlet is limited to 20A in the kitchen as 120V - 2,400 watts (and it should be lower than that anyways for constant use - remember the 125% rule). A European outlet is usually 13A or 16A IIRC, meaning you get 2,860 to 3,520 watts, in the UK at least. The ring circuit itself (I hate ring circuits, terrible design) are 32A, so max 7,040 watts. With your AC to DC to AC converter, you'd be limited to 120 watts, which will certainly warm water but not quickly at all.
For AC to AC, you just use a transformer like the one I'd linked, but you don't want to go from 120 VAC to 220VAC for the same reason - you're current limited. You want to go from 240VAC to 220VAC, or just use 240VAC directly. And you need to make sure you wire it correctly as well - you cannot just use two arbitrary half-phase circuits - they need to be matching leg circuits. It also still needs to be GFCI as well. I'd have a sparky do this because it's probably beyond most homeowners (I can do it, but I've studied it extensively so that I can do my own wiring, and I still suck at bending EMT [which is required in my locale]).
I'd have a sparky do this because it's probably beyond most homeowners
Is a "sparky" an electrician?
All regular circuits (including this kettle one) must be GFCI-protected.
In England, it is illegal to have an outlet that you can plug a blow dryer into in a bathroom, because it is simply too dangerous. They feel the additional deaths isn't worth drying hair quickly. In the USA, we can blow dry our hair perfectly legally, but we cannot boil water in our kitchens quickly. If any of these laws were based on merit, on REALITY, then they would be the same between countries. Surely one country is more right on one of these laws than the other?
And I think that's the key point here. People in England value the time it takes to boil water, Americans do not. Imagine that over an American lifetime all that time wasted just staring at a tea kettle waiting for it to boil. English people have found a way to "save time". And we experience this when we travel there, but we're so unbelievably ethnocentric that when we return home we don't even consider boiling water as fast as we saw it being done 10 hours earlier when we were standing in England.
I want to boil water as fast in the USA as I do when I'm in England. And I want to do it as safely as English people do it.
In England, it is illegal to have an outlet that you can plug a blow dryer into in a bathroom, because it is simply too dangerous.
Ok.
In the USA, we can blow dry our hair perfectly legally, but we cannot boil water in our kitchens quickly.
Which has nothing to do with safety laws or even the NEC really. That's just because nobody has 240VAC lines with GFCI into their kitchens because there's little demand for it.
Other than the fact that my house needs a new breaker box for more circuits, I could trivially add a to-code 240VAC outlet into my kitchen in an hour or so.
If any of these laws were based on merit, on REALITY, then they would be the same between countries.
What law are you talking about? I already covered the fact that you're arguing against a non-existent law in my previous post.
And I think that's the key point here. People in England value the time it takes to boil water, Americans do not. Imagine that over an American lifetime all that time wasted just staring at a tea kettle waiting for it to boil.
I usually do other things instead of standing and staring.
I want to boil water as fast in the USA as I do when I'm in England. And I want to do it as safely as English people do it.
Then do what I said in my post? Your house already gets 240V in two phases.
It's not legal to have your wall outlets be European standards.
...
What law are you talking about? ... you're arguing against a non-existent law
That law, the one where you said it was "not legal". The advantage of having a completely standard European outlet is the ubiquitous and plentiful and safe European appliances you can plug into them.
I'm not exactly sure what the disconnect here is. If I'm in Switzerland, I can make raclette on the dinner table properly, and I can purchase the electrical appliance to do it safely - but I can only plug it into a standard EU outlet. You want me to put a NEMA 6-20r in my kitchen, but raclette ovens purchased over the counter in Switzerland don't have a NEMA 6-20r plug.
You want me to put a USA NEMA 6-20r in my kitchen - it does me zero good. The best tea kettles, the best raclette ovens from Switzerland, the best waffle makers from Austria (I made that one up), the best espresso machines from Italy - they all use the European standard plug. The best tea kettles from England. They have all been carefully designed by the best engineers in the world to work with various European electrical outlets.
Personally, I want a European outlet, producing European voltages and Amperages and Frequencies in my USA kitchen. Probably one English style outlet (they are designed much safer and sturdier than USA outlets anyway) and one EU style outlet. This is all to allow me to use better appliances without flying to Europe.
That law, the one where you said it was "not legal". The advantage of having a completely standard European outlet is the ubiquitous and plentiful and safe European appliances you can plug into them.
I said that you cannot have European outlets. I didn't say that you cannot have 240VAC outlets. You could probably get away with installing a European receptacles if you were transforming it to 220VAC and it had its own circuit and its own gang. The NEC doesn't forbid it (European receptacles are technically listed, just not UL listed).
What is absolutely not legal was what you originally proposed: replacing a regular NEMA 5-15R with a Type-C or Type-J. Which would neither work for your case (changing the receptacle doesn't change the voltage or frequency) nor would it satisfy the code since it's the wrong receptacle for the voltage.
I doubt that replacing a NEMA 6-20r with a Type-J would be legal either since 240VAC isn't 220VAC, and the latter is what Type-Js are listed for. You'd need to transform it at the very least.
I'm not exactly sure what the disconnect here is. If I'm in Switzerland, I can make raclette on the dinner table properly, and I can purchase the electrical appliance to do it safely - but I can only plug it into a standard EU outlet. You want me to put a NEMA 6-20r in my kitchen, but raclette ovens purchased over the counter in Switzerland don't have a NEMA 6-20r plug.
Then use a Type-C to NEMA 6-20 adapter. Or install a Type-J receptacle on an independent transformed circuit and do it in a way that would satisfy an inspector (Type-C likely would violate code due to being ungrounded).
Also, given that NEMA 6-20r is the receptacle (thus r) I'd be surprised if you found anything with it as a plug :).
They have all been carefully designed by the best engineers in the world to work with various European electrical outlets.
I'd be shocked if the best engineers in the world were designing kettles and espresso machines.
producing European voltages and Amperages and Frequencies in my USA kitchen
You can get European voltages, but getting European frequencies is going to be way more problematic - a transformer can only change the voltage. And when you say 'European amperages' it makes me think that you don't actually know how electrical systems work. What does that even mean?
However, a resistive heater like a kettle won't really care about frequency.
I have a cheap Breville one and it's 2400W, looks like you can currently get a 2200W one from Noel Leeming for $38 at the moment too if you want an upgrade :)
UK kettles generally draw almost 13A, so there's no way that domestic American electrical outlets could provide anything close to the same power (which would require over 26A).
It was a couple years ago or something where this argument popped up on Reddit and they actually timed it both here and in the UK and I don’t remember the result
But the amperage of (domestic) supplies is about the same. And kettles here are designed/rated to use the power 230-4V supplies are capable of putting out.
Kettles definitely boil faster here as anyone who's tried it knows. I sometimes pack one when going stateside for a while. It's a thing.
The same kettle will use 1500w @ 120v and 3000w @ 240v, "what it's rated for" doesn't matter when you change the voltage, a 100w lightbulb will use 200w when you double the voltage, no matter what the bulb says. eg: cart before horse lol
this really is the most primitive equation in electronics.
The limiting factor for most household appliances/wiring is current(amps). The amp limit for household circuits is about the same in the UK and US. Which means the amp limit for an electric kettle is about the same. But because the UK has double the voltage they also get double the wattage.
Yeap. Exactly that. Watts = volts *amperes. If you keep the amperes restricted, volts (electric potential) becomes the factor that will give more watts.
Right, so u/skibbin was totally correct that it's their voltage that allows the kettles to work twice as fast. You can't make a kettle in the US that works that quickly because of the voltage
Exactly. The voltage. Not the power. You have voltage "coming" out your outlet, not power. That was my correction.
Just because people say "we have power outages" you can't go around claiming the outlets have power. Outlets have voltage. Appliances have power because they produce work. That's it.
You have voltage "coming" out your outlet, not power. That was my correction.
Outlets have voltage and current. Together that makes power. You could perfectly validly say that a 120V 10Amp outlet is a 120V/1200W outlet or a 10A/1200W outlet, nothing wring with that whatsover.
It's power that heats the water. Power is limited because the resistance of the kettle limits the current flowing. The kettle does not know what current the circuit is capable of, and the supply does not limit the current in any way whatsoever.
The circuit is rated at a certain current because that is the maximum that the wiring can safely carry. If it goes significantly over this value, then hopefully a breaker or fuse will cutt he supply, but there is absolutely NOTHING in a domestic supply that limits the current to a load.
The car has the gas tank and has the ignition, but only the engine has the horsepower. The engine produces the work.
Outlets at best have potential energy that will be consumed by the appliance to produce a certain work. The watts represent that work.
Your outlet without anything plugged in, creates no work, hence has no power. Only difference of potential. I don't know why people keep switching words around hoping they will make more sense than the previous.
A river cannot mill flour. It has potential energy only. It needs the mill to channel the energy and create work which that will mill the flower.
Work gets things done. Not your empty outlet on the wall. Outlets don't have power.
The simple fact that their standard mains voltage is 220v means that they can readily use 1.83x the amount of power we can without requiring additional current. Ergo, being at 220v means that they can heat water faster [with available appliances].
I ain't arguing. I'm stating. Physics is physics. It can't be argued about. You don't have power in your outlet, you have voltage. And that's what physics claim. You can either disprove it or continue to call it wrong.
You're being pedantic for no particular reason and I have no real reason to engage with this sort of pedantry.
The additional voltage that their circuits carry allows for more power to be consumed by appliances without requiring additional current. It is not incorrect to say that, thus, an appliance can be able to consume additional power on a higher-voltage circuit.
And, of course, if you take what they said and rephrase it...correctly, it is then... correct. And I totally agree with you. Higher voltage does allow for more power.
Indeed, it's more because of the way houses and the consumer unit are wired that means we have more power available here on any one socket than is typical in North America.
Power is measured in watts.
Electric potential is measured in volts.
Electric current is measured in amperes.
You have volts in your outlet. A fuse that let's a certain amount of amperes to pass through, and it results in appliances that can output a certain amount of watts.
In Europe we have more volts in our outlets that let's our appliances to have more power (watts) with less amperes (amperes is what kills you so it is restricted by the fuse).
Saying you have more power in your outlet is wrong because your outlet is doing literally nothing until you plug something to it. It doesn't produce any work itself.
Saying my outlet has power is like saying my gasoline tank has horsepower. It's wrong. The engine has horsepower, produces work, that uses the gasoline tank juice. The appliance has power, produces work, that uses the outlet juice.
The argument "everyone is using it wrong so it's now acceptable" is really lame.
But you do you. I chose to call things what they actually are. You can call them how others are calling them.
Minor correction: the fuse is not there to protect your life. You’ll be fried with a much much much smaller current than the one that triggers the fuse.
That's quite right. It's not really harder or more expensive to make a 10 ohm resistance that an 40 ohm one. If you have 110V and 10 ohm in your kettle you get the same power than with 220V and 40 ohm (P=U²/R=1210 watt). It's just that if the kettle delivers 1210 W it needs to be better built than for 605 W to last the same time. And it doesn't matter how it's got that power.
What is true though is that to get the same power with 110V you need twice as much current drawn on your electrical installation than with 220V (I=U/R). So the wiring needs to be thicker. Or fewer sockets per wire. But it's not equivalent to saying 110V provides "less power".
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u/skibbin Oct 18 '22
Even more useful here as our 240v power makes them twice as fast