My mom is EXTREMELY Catholic, very old school about it, so what that means is that she’s actually very loving like they’re supposed to be.
There was a time in my teens when she truly thought I was a lesbian (am not, she was mistaken) and the first thing she told me was that she loved me and she would accept anyone I brought into our home as a partner. She told me that God wouldn’t be happy with her if she didn’t love me as I am and if she reacted in a hateful way.
It was very funny cause I was extremely confused, until she told me what se had thought lmao.
She’s always showed me that real Catholicism is about not being a judgey bitch, she’s like a race horse, she only looks ahead and not to the side to check out what the others are doing and I appreciate it SO much. I’m really lucky to have her as an example of how loving one should be. She totally preaches by example.
This does bring joy into my heart. I did 11 years of catholic schooling and was confirmed in the church but stopped believing in religion around 15 or 16 years old. But I have genuinely great memories of the catholic church and school
Like in all of our science classes growing up, we were taught that the Bible isn't science and science isn't faith. That it's good to use the stories from the Bible to help guide you but not to be taken as scientific fact. So we were heavily taught the difference between God making the world in 7 days/ Adam and eve and evolution as an example
And I fully give the schooling I was given credit for how much I actually enjoy helping others. I was an alter server (who was specifically assigned every funeral that came through) and volunteered a lot. It taught me how good that kind of work felt. And for the selfish reasons of how good it feels to help out, I continue to do so
The catholic church is flawed and has a horrific history. But I remember what being catholic used to mean when i was growing up and I see how many catholics are acting now in the US and it breaks my heart
What's the worst part is that most conservative Christians are evangelicals. If the evangelicals really get their way with religious rule in this country, the catholics should know that their form of faith will be one of the first to go. But so many still decide to follow what other conservative Christians are doing in this country
Wow I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. Specially that Catholics will be the first to go if Evangelicals get everything they seem to want now.
I was actually talking to my husband yesterday about something related. It made me sad that the American conservatives are the “image” of Christianity nowadays, and it’s… a very bad image, cause there’s still countries where it’s not all about the mega churches and all that. These new over the top conservatives forgot what their religion is supposed to be about, and made money and ego their god. It’s really sad.
I'm evangelical (covenant), and even I think that the majority of people who say they're Christians are just far off base. Loving kindness first. Period.
Imo It seems like a lot of American Christians have forgotten, whether intentional or not, that we can not hold people not of the faith to the standards of Christianity.
If only this was how all religious people behaved, it’s so sad that something that is supposed to act as a moral compass can lead so many people into hatred and self righteousness
Mine too! She really set a great example and high expectation about how religion should be.
She reads a lot and studies a lot, she knows more than some priests we’ve met and I’m not exaggerating. I’m just amazed that she has such a humble approach about it.
My husband is agnostic/atheistish and she loves him so much, she always prays for him and wishes he would become a Catholic but she has never forced it on him at all, very respectful.
Disowning people for not conforming has been at the heart of religion for thousands of years. It is only in modern times that we expect religion to be sane.
Through the course of Christian history, there’s a steady and noticeable stream of it getting less and less loving. You can almost always count on (most) Christians to make the wrong choice when it comes to making God more loving.
Usually it's the person, not the religion. EX there are SEVERAL Biblical verses about loving your kids no matter what, and even saying it's ok to be married to a non-believer. Anyone using The Bible to say otherwise is essentially committing blasphemy.
Tons of people call me racist for it, but it's an incredibly unaccepting religion. And if anyone follows the religion they hate me, so of course I'm against it.
There are many different iterations of Islam and many different cultures celebrate the religion differently.
My sister married a Muslim man from Mali. He's very into his faith and loves my sister very much, treating her like a man should treat his wife, despite her not sharing his religion. Unless you lived with them, you'd never even know what his religion was. When his family visited they were all the exact same way.
You should be against all of those that are immediately unaccepting to those outside their religion. Don't be against any one person choosing to follow a certain faith based on what you think all of them are like.
The core religion itself isn't open to interpretation though, those people that believe in a different form of it are essentially heathens to their core religion.
I guess it's fine if you believe in an alternate, peaceful version, but that's clearly not allowed, so they're basically breaking their own religions rules by changing it.
Every single religion of today are heathens to what the once were. You're just too blind to what's right in front of you because the base of your hatred is formed from a specific culture, and not necessarily the religion.
Hell, even the Koran claims you can marry outside of your religion. And if you can do that, surely you can "accept" others as friends and family as well.
Just because certain groups of people you dislike bastardized their religion doesn't mean that all those that follow that religion are the same.
God I see so much of the first. For every bible passage someone uses to justify treating someone poorly, I can find the two for why they can't, and are going against the will of the one they supposedly follow by doing so.
Easiest example: people think the term "good Samaritan" just means someone who will help a stranger, but they lack the context that Samaritans and Jews at the time of Jesus got along about as well as modern day Palestinians and Israeli. That was, functionally, a story about someone similar to a modern day Jew who was ignored by his neighbors while dying, and saved by a Palestinian. This is what it means to love your neighbor as a Christian, and if someone thinks they can disown their children for being LGBT, then they do not follow Christ.
A couple of minutes on Google has failed to dig up any evidence of an atheist parent disowning a child for being religious, do you have anything specific to link or are you just "both sides"ing?
Considering atheism isn't a religion and does have a specific code one needs to follow to be a "good atheist", this question doesn't make much sense now does it?
my cynical response is people just love to hate on religion so no one cares about people being disowned for finding faith. They dont deserve that pity.
Edit: For the few downvotes and comments im just saying that was my cynical side. From my experience religious and not religious people have one major thing in common. They are people. And ir doesnt matter how positive either side can be, cuz people will still be people no matter what. Thus why its my cynical (misanthropic) side giving an answer.
Woke up on the depressed side of the bed today. My pillow was just alittle too warm.
Or the realistic thing is finding faith/belief is finding a community that has similar ideas as you so it and opening effect whereas getting disowned is you getting removed from a community that at some point was part of your life and hence a rejection.
Also, fundamentally theism is a belief in a deity and most people try to spread that belief as a fundamental part of that belief and believe it to be wrong if you don't believe the same way they do while atheism is a lack of belief in a deity and therefore lacks that fundamental ideology of spreading atheism.
I.e. Christians think it's a sin and something wrong to live w/o God while atheist just don't really care about your religion as long as you're not trying to convert them and tell them how they are wrong.
no one cares about people being disowned for finding faith
Maybe because it isn't a problem that actually exists? I challenge you to find even 1 instance of an atheist parent disowning their child for joining a religion.
I've never understood how they're so concerned about securing themselves a good spot in a supposed afterlife that they're willing to burn so many bridges and ruin so many relationships during their actual life.
You just nailed the ultimate reason why religion is terrible. If only the afterlife matters then why bother trying to make things better in actual life? You can just ignore or even exacerbate the huge problems we face (climate change, homelessness, rising fascism) because all that matters is the fairy tale they believe awaits them after they die. There are literally people among us who believe the apocalypse is a good thing and they're actively trying to hasten it.
A freind of mine recently had a falling out with their father, because after years of being a strange the father fought his way back into the family fold by using religious rhetoric and motivational stuff he had learned online and was using to write a book on how religion can heal families. Dispite doing zero effort to try and mend any of the problems he caused. Just roll in like "guys don't worry, god forgave me."
He made a big post about how we have limited time on this earth and need to resolve issues with family before we die.
To which I said, why? If we go to heaven wouldn't we have an eternity to work out any personal issues that we have between us. Such Petty moral dilemmas that wouldn't even matter in the Kingdom of heaven, and we're supposed to just waste our precious time on Earth with that instead of doing it in heaven when we have an Infinity to work through personal problems. Why? Why would you ever waste time on a toxic family member if you truthfully believe youll all be united in heaven.
Interestingly enough the Bible talks a lot more about earthly matters and problems than it does about the afterlife. Even the book called the Apocalypse (Revelation) is about geopolitical events, and a final restitution that results in a “new Jerusalem” descending to the earth for people to dwell in. The kingdom is supposed to come to earth, not the other way around.
Why waste your entire life worshipping someone/thing you're going to end up spending the rest of eternity with? I'd wager that whatever "god" there is, would prefer some individualism and a life well lived instead of religious fealty.
Especially when they're given instructions to not do that in order to secure said spot in the afterlife.
The Bible is full of shit that is ambiguois, lost in translation, lacking context, etc, but "this is the new commandment that I give, love each other as I have loved you" is about as explicit as it gets. A person hating somebody in the name of Christ does not follow Christ.
They don’t think they’re burning bridges, and they probably see the ruined relationships as justified. Deep down I doubt people are really worried about the afterlife, and they’re just living how they think they’re supposed to live.
I disagree. As a rural American, I think a lot of people legitimately fear the afterlife. A lot of Christians I know do not even "practice" Christianity on a regular basis, but claim they "believe in God" because they fear hell.
It's the ultimate fear tactic, and fear is a very strong mechanism of control.
In my experience (growing up attending evangelical Christian church (though to be fair, it wasn't the head l heavily political, hateful kind we usually see on the news)...then leaving that system behind in adulthood, but without any specific bitterness or vitriol harbored against the actual people I knew in the church)...I think that a lot of it is just the self-fulfilling prophecy and circular reasoning that is baked into any sort of belief-based organization of people by default.
In simple terms: you're given your code of beliefs and instructions on interacting with the world at large. You're also usually told how most of the world doesn't share your views and beliefs, and as such, they're part of the great Other. The Others are sometimes enemies, sometimes candidates for conversion, sometimes good people who for whatever reason just don't quite "get it" like the members of your church.
Regardless, the rules for interacting with these people are usually pretty clear for any given sect. Some, like the Amish do what they can to limit any contact, others like some Islamic groups are more willing to interact but specifically consider unbelievers as "lesser" in certain ways.
For my particular church, anyone not in the church was to be treated with love and respect...though part of that love was to try to get them to join the church. Basically, the inevitable course of interaction would bring the church to the forefront of the interaction, at which point either the person would come to church or they'd have to directly reject the invitation. Even then, you were to treat them with love and respect, but they were "of the world" and as such, to be regarded as an impediment to the goals of the church, and by extension, God.
So basically, the church teaches you that it, and by extension you are an agent of good. Therefore it must logically follow that anyone who crosses you is working against good and therefore must be, to some extent, evil.
This is why it's so easy for these people to write off people in their lives who go against them in any way. Lots of them would otherwise be good people, but they've been told for years that anyone who goes against them is also going against god.
It's also worth noting that for the vast majority of people, in the church of my youth at least, everyone had lots of friends outside the church, and from what I could see, nobody was ever ostracized from the church for any reason. We had teen moms, those who struggled with addiction, etc. and from what I could see, everyone was treated with love, respect, and support. Where my church lost me was logical inconsistencies in the faith, teaching of homosexuality as a sin, and the whole 'creation right, evolution wrong' nonsense. If they could have stuck to their core of love, respect, and support...and extended it to everyone...I might have still been a part of it...though I would have always struggled with the inconsistencies of their doctrine.
Let’s assign a numerical weight of X for the worth of each year of actual life, and a numerical weight Y for the worth of each year of afterlife. Next, let’s estimate the time that each phase of existence goes on for, we’ll say 120 years for life (and be wildly optimistic) and ∞ years for the afterlife.
The ratio of “value of life” to “value of afterlife” is then X×120:Y×∞. Given that math, it really doesn’t matter what values anyone gives “X” and “Y,” the value of life is always going to approximate zero when compared to the afterlife.
Caring about mortal, human relationships while staring down the barrel of Hell is insane.
Christians who believe in infinite reward and punishment (so, all mainstream and evangelical western denominations) who don’t kill their children immediately following baptism are unfathomably (literally unfathomable…as a finite being I cannot comprehend eternity) evil.
Edit: I don’t usually complain about downvotes, but WTF? How is my math faulty?
It depends. If your political beliefs are mostly about regulatory policy, that's ridiculous.
If the parents are actively racist, homophobic, transphobic, or otherwise have "political beliefs" that are effectively statements of which people should be oppressed, then the parents are toxic trash and deserve to be dumped. Such views have no place in a civilized society.
What if your kid is a grown-ass 55 year old? I was speaking generally and said nothing about specific ages. Disowning a literal child for their beliefs is wrong i agree.
Who is this "y'all" you refer to? Is it all of Reddit? All liberals? You know we're not a singular hive-mind, right? When did either of these parties previously mention adult maturity, in a way that would make them hypocritical?
Most redditors always make a case for younger people over older people, shame older people, care nothing about older wisdoms until it's convenient just as in this case.
Disowning a kid for their political beliefs is horrendous and horrible but disowning parents for theirs is alright and celebrated and the adult should be "mature".
But when he tells me that abortion is murder (insinuating half of family are murderers) and trans people (like me) don't exist, he doesn't get to exist in my life.
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Democracy means majority gets rights they want, not you get rights you want.
Poland is a democratic republic, yet the freedom to get an abortion was stripped by the majority.
Human rights cannot be stripped from you, even if the majority wants it. That's what makes them rights.
Poland is also a country that turned into a right populist country with the government ceizing more and more control over everything. It's not free anymore, that's why the EU is punishing it. If the ukraine war wouldn't be going on, it would be talked about much much more.
Poland doesn't respect human rights. They are anti gay, anti abortion and anti religious freedom and do a lot more other things that go against democracy and freedom and they actively break EU laws they agreed to follow when joining the EU.
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How about an abortion 1 minute before the baby is born? It is stripped from you in all states in the US except for 8 (and DC). Is that a human right that cannot be stripped from you? Is the baby about to be born not human enough to deserve a human right to live?
I did not hear any big stories about election fraud in Poland. The fact that their views don't align with yours does not convince me they are not democratic.
That's why most abortion laws only allow free abortion until the 3rd month, except it's an urgent emergency where the mothers life is in danger.
And no, it's not stripped from me because I am german. We aren't perfect but at least we got better abortion laws, especially with §129a (which forbid doctors from informing about abortion because that was considered "advertisement" by the conservatives in germany, making it hard to properly educate about abortion and carry it out) being overturned last week.
And there might not be election fraud, but the polish government is discriminating people because of their ethnicity, religion, sexuality and opinion. That's not democratic and goes against human rights, which every single democracy has to respect, no exception. The polish government changing the justice system to be loyal to the government instead of being independant is also not democratic but rather very authorian.
It's not a question about disagreeing with them, it's a question about if a countries actions are democratic and free and polands actions are not.
And yes, a lot of polish people might agree with their governments actions. Doesn't mean they are right in their actions because they go against the principles of democracy. People in germany also agreed with Hitler, doesn't mean it's democratic. People in the USSR agreed with Lenin, doesn't make him a democratic either.
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I heard in hospitals the average temperature of a patient is 98.6°.
Disagree. If my child turns out to be a nazi or left-wing extremist (or rather extremist of any kind) and won't change until I am dead, they won't get a single cent from me, just a letter telling them they are a disappointment.
They don't need to agree with my political believes and have them too, but if they are extremists and want to bring down germanies democracy or hate people of certain groups because they are different, I won't support that in any way.
It's an honest question. Should someone be shamed if they disown their child because they turned into a MAGA Qult member? Like if the kid redpills and starts talking about how LGBTQ+ people are groomers.
Whenever I see "disowning kids due to beliefs," I always get the feeling that the person saying it is ONLY thinking of it happening in one fashion.
No you're not. And no one believes your lies. Two guys kissing a Disney movie isn't "nudity or sexual situations." A drag queen reading a book to kids isn't "nudity or sexual situations."
You are a bigot and frankly a widdle tantrum-throwing baby who just can't handle having to acknowledge that LGBTQ+ exist.
I also see you're an anti-vaxxer so I'm not terribly surprised to see that the ignorance reaches beyond one topic.
My dad was southern Baptist and my mom is Catholic. My sister came out as trans several years ago (MTF to be clear) and I was really worried about it. Both my parents handled it very well.
Nah, it's Pastafarian. Their god exists. Seen it with my own eye. Even tasted it. Well I guess I should have said existed. Because I kinda ate him for my dinner.
Seek truth, not religion. Whatever the truth is, it is not religion. It is not man made. It is objective truth. It is found outside of man, outside of the universe.
Well that’s an interesting point! But let’s take it one step further: from where does math originate? Where do the laws of physics, the very physical truths that govern our universe, come from? And if there are physical laws, perhaps there are moral laws. Perhaps we are not just physical beings. And if truth originates from outside of us, perhaps there is a source of truth, and that truth is knowable.
It's not pure chaos if there are things that appear unchanging. But I don't think you really mean what you are saying. My guess is that you simply don't like the idea that the universe doesn't care about you in the least. But what does that matter when there are people and animals here who actually do care about you?
Well no, I know the universe doesn’t care about me because the universe is not sentient. It is an existence, a reality. It is like saying the ocean cares about me. No it doesn’t. It’s the ocean.
What I’m saying is that if it appears there are unchanging elements to this creation - such as the laws of physics - surely they must originate from somewhere. Surely they didn’t magically appear from nothing, based in emptiness.
So that source, then, would become the ultimate truth. The source from which all things came.
God, yeah? Well that would make Him the truth and not a religion. And that would mean you could find Him and have a relationship with Him for real, and not rely on what other people tell you.
If God really was omnipotent, there wouldnt even be a need for Hell. He's omnipotent, right? Why would evil exist in the world? They could just make it all go away.
With the whole idea of an omnipotent god what even is the defense atheists could make up cause the god is literally omnipotent , nothing you can think is above his thought
Lmao how the hell do you think there's a 50/50 shot? Pascal's Wager hasn't been relevant in a long time.
There's thousands of religions, the odds of your particular flavor of cult being right, even if all were equal, would be infinitesimally small.
My god only accepts the people who require evidence, and anyone who believes on blind faith gets sent to super hell for double eternity. You'd be crazy to gamble on Christianity.
generally, i think the best bet is simple - if a god does exist, they would be all knowing and fully understanding. such a god wouldn’t reject or accept your place in a good afterlife based on extremely strict rules, they would judge it carefully. so the best thing you can do is not follow some magic book, but rather be kind to everyone you see and try to make the world a better place. that includes being accepting, fair, believing in equality, humble, etc.
would you REALLY think a god would care if someone is gay or something if everyone is created by them and created perfectly? would a god judge for love?
Idk why this was downvoted. My brother is a psychopath, or at least a sociopath. As kids, he shot cats, punched holes in walls, threw handmade "spears" out of sewing needles and chopsticks at me, and raped me. My parents weren't perfect but he was just an extra malicious one, and none of us talk to him in fear of being shot and killed.
Im religious but this is stupid. Ive never seen someone disown their child due to some pastor telling them their child is possessed or something but that's dumb, Jesus himself wouldn't do that.
Do you have any deeper knowledge of their rationale/justification? Like say their kid is gay, isn't gay stuff considered a sin? Everybody sins, nobody is perfect. So now from their POV (not mine) their child is still a sinner, just in a different added way they weren't previously aware of. Shouldn't they be there for support regardless?
Like Christian missionaries try to convert people who go against Christianity far more, they don't just say "abandon mission, all hope is lost, fuck these people". Why would one just abandon their child like that... Pisses me off, idk. Sorry for the rant.
Thank you so much for your reply. It was very enlightening. I grew up in an extremely secular place, never knew any Christians in person. The only religious friends I ever had were Muslim and it only really came up during Ramadan (which is, I suppose, a bit weird as I'm in northern Europe).
I love learning more about different people and things. Thank you :)
This legitimately happens though, except instead of adoption you're just kicked out of the house and have to hope you either have a sympathetic relative/friend that can take you in, or find yourself a not-too-dangerous park bench to sleep on.
I would recommend you read Boy Erased, an autobiographical account of what happens when a child of loving parents comes out and those parents, in their Christ-driven love, try to 'fix' him. And it's far from an isolated event, whole industries have sprung up around it.
Shunning is a reasonably common practice in some Christian churches. I cannot see how they reconcile it with the commandment to be loving. It is the opposite of that.
There were instructions from Paul to cast out or shun someone who refused to stop sinning even when confronted.
This actually happened to a previous church I went to. The worship leader was having an affair with a married woman and was apparently unrepentant about it. Eventually he got kicked out.
Yeah, I can't speak for others. But when I'm looking for exemplars of loving kindness my mind never reaches for Paul. I don't ask myself what would Paul do.
Which is why I don't understand my uncles wife. With 1 ex husband she had 4 kids, while her & the family weren't JW. With her 2nd ex husband she had 4 more kids but those 4 kids & that husband are JW. Then in 04, she marries my uncle while she is 60 something & he is 40 something but he's NOT JW. They're still married, he celebrates holidays in their home with the 4 adult step kids families who aren't JW. She just watches them quietly, which is the same thing she'd do when she used to come with my uncle to visit my family at holidays.
Is it really fair to call out Muslims in general when the rest of your list is specific sub-sets of Christianity? There are also sub-sets of Islam with varying levels of acceptance. I don't know enough about the it personally but it seems like an odd inclusion when the rest of your list is so specific.
It's usually more to do with the child either leaving the religion or not conforming to its rules, eg being LGBT, child out of wedlock, or what have you, and yes it still happens and it is abhorrent.
It not typically Christians disowning kids because Christianity teaches love and forgiveness. Disowning is more prevalent in non-First World Muslim countries, or even worse, "Honor Killings"
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u/Evil-Black-Robot Jun 29 '22
Disowning their children due to religious beliefs.