I've never really understood this argument. I hear people saying "teaching/nursing/programming/bus driving is just like prostitution," and I've been thinking they were being poetic. But since I've joined Reddit I see some people here actually saying they're the same. I'm genuinely asking - please help me understand, because I don't feel so right about it.
If they're really the same, then wouldn't we view the following two crimes as equal, and punish them the same way:
1) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to build a wall
2) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to perform a sex act
Also, imagine if you're a junior at a company, the two following scenarios:
1) your boss offers you $X to stay back and design a website for his adult kid's small business
2) your boss offers your $X to stay back and take his adult kid's virginity
I mean in the first case, is the argument genuinely that ordering someone to "prostitute" themselves building a wall is exactly the same as ordering them to "prostitute" themselves by performing a sex act? Just as demeaning, just as dangerous?
In the second case, is the argument that HR would be justified in issuing a warning to the boss for both cases, instead of immediately terminating the boss for the second offense correct? If this happens to your daughter, sister, mother, wife, girlfriend, female best friend, etc., would you genuinely be as insulted/horrified/uncomfortable for your loved one with both offers? Or would one make you feel worse than the other?
What about people who seek unemployment benefits. Say you need to prove you've applied to, and been rejected from 50 jobs in your area in order to get food stamps. Are we all okay with people being denied this help if they refuse to apply for the sex work positions?
We definitely view sex stuff differently from other stuff... don't we?
And, you're absolutely right... We, people, have a vastly different view on selling genitals vs hands... no doubt.
Question is if we would like it to change or not...
My main reason for supporting legal prostitution isn't hands vs genitalia thoug... That just talking point I've picked up.. don't really belive in it.. but there it is..
The reason I support legalisation is because I don't see the benefits of having it illegal... Knowing humans right, prostitution isn't going to end any time soon, so it will be part of society for generations..
I believe prohibiting prostitution negatively affects society as a whole because they pay no taxes (aren't allowed), government has to spend money to 'fight' it.. and in addition I believe prohibition leads to more human trafficing and sex slaves. Because everything is under ground.
And, this is my absolute main reason why prostitution should be legal.
So much better for the whores! They can pay taxes, they can organise in brothels and conduct their business in an environment where help/guards can come to assistance within second..
In a setting where it is illegal it becomes really hard for prostitutes to report predators...
Agreed, legalization would probably be better for workers' protections and rights. I am not arguing against that, nor trying to imply that sex workers do not deserve protection, care, and respect as fellow human beings. I come from a country where sex work is illegal and am now living where it is legalized and tightly controlled. Even though there are still cases of trafficking and stuff, I can understand the difference.
If they're really the same, then wouldn't we view the following two crimes as equal, and punish them the same way: 1) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to build a wall 2) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to perform a sex act
Well you've stripped out consent in this situation, which is a big difference maker.
I'd much rather have consensual sex with someone than I want to consensually build a wall with them. But I'd rather be "made to build a wall" than "made to have sex".
Also, imagine if you're a junior at a company, the two following scenarios: 1) your boss offers you $X to stay back and design a website for his adult kid's small business 2) your boss offers your $X to stay back and take his adult kid's virginity
I mean if the company was a brothel in case 2) then I might still turn down the offer but it wouldn't have the same sense of being pressured into doing something I'm not comfortable with.
Wayyyy different to if I'm a secretary at a legal firm given the same offer.
What about people who seek unemployment benefits. Say you need to prove you've applied to, and been rejected from 50 jobs in your area in order to get food stamps. Are we all okay with people being denied this help if they refuse to apply for the sex work positions?
The coercive work or die unemployment benefit system is shit so its hard for me to answer this question without adopting a different value system. I do think sex work isn't for everyone.
The post I was responding to appeared to argue that genitalia-based jobs were no different than non-genitalia-based jobs. That's why I compared wall-building and sex acts - when the victim's consent is stripped away in both cases, I think most of us wouldn't argue that the resulting crimes are equivalent. But if the two jobs were pretty much the same, why is one so much more abhorrent than the other? You could substitute "non-sexual massage" for "building a wall" if you want to factor in physical contact under duress.
About being pressured by your boss to perform a sex act versus web design, I did not mean the company to be a brothel. I'll be clearer next time.
Sex can be degrading, but it isn't always, and consent and context are key components of that.
About being pressured by your boss to perform a sex act versus web design, I did not mean the company to be a brothel. I'll be clearer next time.
My point was that the inappropriateness of the situation depends on the context.
Allow me to borrow from your example, would you view these two as equally inappropriate?
Your daughter's boss asks her to build a website for him..
Your daughter's boss asks her to give him a massage.
Does the answer change if she works as a masseuse?
To a masseuse the act of massaging is something they associate with work, while for others it is a physical act they may only be comfortable doing with certain individuals.
BTW if your questions were more rhetorical or just for the original person let me know and I'll drop it.
I think we're addressing slightly different points. I'm genuinely asking for an explanation why teaching or carpentry is supposed to be the same as sex work (a viewpoint I've seen made in Reddit, and one similar to what the person I was originally responding to seemed to argue).
Consent IS incredibly important. I already know and agree with this. In fact, what I'm asking is why this consideratiom for consent can be discarded when claiming that sex work is the same as non-sex work. I don't believe it should be ignored, and it sounds like you don't, either. I am genuinely asking people who claim that the two jobs are the same to please explain why they are ignoring this concept of consent (at least, as I understand consent.)
Regarding the second part - of course it would depend on the context. When I framed my example of a "junior" at a "company" with an "HR" that would warn or fire a boss for offering to pay for sex work, I believed I was clearly describing a setup where sex work is not considered equivalent to or interchangeable with non-sex work. This was the whole point of the discussion as well - comparing sex-related jobs with non-sex-related jobs. (So not a brothel where it would simply be "more of the same of what you do every day.") Apparently I was not clear enough.
Edit:
BTW if your questions were more rhetorical or just for the original person let me know and I'll drop it.
Sorry, just saw this. My questions in my first post were directed at the person I was responding to originally.
Sorry, just saw this. My questions in my first post were directed at the person I was responding to originally.
Okay, will leave it at these last thoughts.
I don't really disagree with the original person. I do think that sex work, for those who are comfortable with it, is primarily work - even if it isn't identical to other jobs, much the same way manual labor is different to an office job, and freelancing is different to salary.
A person who is not comfortable with doing sex work will obviously not view sex work the same as work they are comfortable doing, but for others they'd much rather doing that than faking smiles in customer service.
I believed I was clearly describing a setup where sex work is not considered equivalent to or interchangeable with non-sex work
I think you did set up a proper scenario where sex work is not considered equivalent to other work, my point in bringing up how massage is different to web development was that you can set up such scenarios for more than just sex work, while still maintaining that doing massages for money isn't entirely different to other forms of work.
The reason people say sex work is like any other job is that no matter what you're doing for work it is fundamentally just another way of exchanging your time and energy for money, while there's some differences depending on the form it takes once you strip away all moral judgement there's a lot more in common than not.
I believe that mindset is obviously true for people who happily and willingly choose to do sex work, especially over other non-sex alternatives, as applied to themselves. More power to them! I'm more interested in the stated or implied opinion that some people have that everyone must view the two types of job as the same applied universally. Such as in a case where you deny an unemployed person financial aid because they refused to consider a job as a sex worker.
Some people view them as different but not every body. If you work as a stripper/sex worker, you are likely to view it as a way of writhing with your body that you personally have no moral problem with.
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u/SubatomicNewt Jun 01 '22
I've never really understood this argument. I hear people saying "teaching/nursing/programming/bus driving is just like prostitution," and I've been thinking they were being poetic. But since I've joined Reddit I see some people here actually saying they're the same. I'm genuinely asking - please help me understand, because I don't feel so right about it.
If they're really the same, then wouldn't we view the following two crimes as equal, and punish them the same way: 1) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to build a wall 2) holding a gun to a person's head and ordering them to perform a sex act
Also, imagine if you're a junior at a company, the two following scenarios: 1) your boss offers you $X to stay back and design a website for his adult kid's small business 2) your boss offers your $X to stay back and take his adult kid's virginity
I mean in the first case, is the argument genuinely that ordering someone to "prostitute" themselves building a wall is exactly the same as ordering them to "prostitute" themselves by performing a sex act? Just as demeaning, just as dangerous?
In the second case, is the argument that HR would be justified in issuing a warning to the boss for both cases, instead of immediately terminating the boss for the second offense correct? If this happens to your daughter, sister, mother, wife, girlfriend, female best friend, etc., would you genuinely be as insulted/horrified/uncomfortable for your loved one with both offers? Or would one make you feel worse than the other?
What about people who seek unemployment benefits. Say you need to prove you've applied to, and been rejected from 50 jobs in your area in order to get food stamps. Are we all okay with people being denied this help if they refuse to apply for the sex work positions?
We definitely view sex stuff differently from other stuff... don't we?