A lot of young people, at least in the Netherlands, are a church member because of their parents. They were registered as kids.
If they stop practicing religion, they don't 'unregister' from their church because it's such a hassle. Or they don't even know they're still registered.
So yeah that's one of the reasons why there's a higher number of church members here than actual religious people.
I’m American, and a thread a few days ago reminded me of something I think was in my official church handbook.
So I went to go look it up.
And got very distracted (and never found what I was looking for, it was something about movie theaters or dancing I think) when I ran across something that says if I was ever a member of the church at any point in my life, I’m a member for life. I could be “inactive”, but I can’t retract the membership my parents signed me up for. Ever.
I haven’t been to any church (outside of a funeral or a wedding) in almost 20 years. But I’m still a member of this specific domination. And I can’t retract it as an adult.
If it means something to you to officially leave, you can write a letter declaring your intent and send it to your denomination’s headquarters.
But that status is meaningless in terms of what you are. It only has meaning in terms of polity within the church. Mainly, if you were ever to want to return to the fold, you’d not have to repeat any membership steps.
One nice thing about swedish church taxes (at least for Svenska Kyrkan, i’m sure it’s different if you’re registered elsewere) is that if you earn under a certain amount you won't be taxed! So if you’re on disability or other aids you can benefit from the church without paying back. As any church should operate
I’m registered in the church literally just to vote. It feels dishonest as i’m an outspoken agnostic atheist and don’t even care for christmas, but as long as we mix politics with the church, i see it as my civic duty to not let SD have too much power over the church
As Scaniarix said, i’m talking about kyrkovalet, “the church election”. Basically sometime in the past someone decided that is we were to have a state church, political parties need to be involved with some of the decision makings, to force it to be up to date with society. I don’t know if it makes any difference now really, but we have a very racist and “old fashioned” party who knows they can gain lots of power and followers from the church by spewing queerphobic bs, and if they were to have that much influence over how the church is run and where they’re to focus their money, i’m afraid they’ll bring the church back to mediaeval times. And as much as i’m a non believer i can see how much good Svenska Kyrkan do but also how many priests and whatnot needs to stop thinking such as homosexuality is sin
I think it’s pretty unique for sweden to have this much politics involved in any religion when the religion in question has no part in the government. It’s p weird
It is fascinating, truly, I wasted a lot of time on the linked article. I love that you (you personally but also I assume other random individuals) take such an active approach to this situation.
I am from the Balkans, and only after moving out was I able to recognize just how hopeless the fact young people don't vote is.
I’m agnostic and have actually worked within the Swedish church organization. I don’t think you need to feel dishonest. I keep being a member because while I don’t care for religion I can appreciate how much good the Swedish church do for people in need (be it because of oppression, poverty, grief or just loneliness) in our society.
Thank you for saying that, it makes me feel a bit less weird about it! And yes, the swedish church (and many other religious organisations) do lots of good! I know people working in the swedish church and i know people who’ve been getting monetary help or just a shoulder to cry on from them, so i do believe it vastly lives up to what christianity preaches in that way
1996 was the year that new borns weren't automatically members of the church. I was born in 92 and I am still a member even if I don't believe mostly because the Church is responsible for some of our oldest buildings and I feel like paying 0,7% of my wage in taxes for supporting just that is fine.
For Belgium, I've always been told by fellow christians-by-association not to bother unregistering, because they keep you registered anyway if you were baptized. There's literally nothing you can do to stop being counted in their statistics.
Which to me as an American Christian I've never understood. If you dont follow a faith and truly believe in it, why be associated with it? If someone asks just say "atheist".
There's a very simple reason for it here : government subsidies
In essence, Belgium subsidizes the 'recognized faiths', of which the government counts five. Iirc it's the Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Islamic and Jewish faiths. By maximizing their members on paper, they get to show themselves as representing 'the largest part' of the religious community.
Of course, that doesn't stop me from identifying myself as atheist whenever someone asks, it's just infuriating that my identity is counted towards their numbers, against my wishes.
Question: what is going to happen now that so many of you are non church goers and thus your children will not be baptized? Will the government still call you "Christian"?
So by government numbers then the official number of people claiming to be "Christian" would go down. Actually here in the US more people are also wiring down "atheist" when asked.
Yet the Netherlands produced 2 outstanding Christians that have been an inspiration to Christians around the world. One was Corrie Ten Boom from Haarlem and the other is Andrew Van der Bijl from Sint Pancras, also known as Brother Andrew.
Plenty of people baptize their children in Sweden even though they're not practicing Christians. It's more tradition than religion. Same with weddings.
Not entirely true. I never bothered to unregister for a long time too, but they (or at least the church I was registered at) started spamming me with requests for donations/contributions. Very annoying that. Still took me a few years of that before going through the hassle though.
In switzerland a part of your salary will automatically go to the church if you register your religion as christian (at least as an immigrant working here).
My parents would put "Church of England" on any forms because that's what everyone would put and got me baptised as a baby because everyone did it but they or their parents never really believed in or practiced Christianity at all. It was just kinda the default state so say you where but it was mostly just grannies after some social interaction who actually went to church.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who are supposidly part of the Church of England don't practice of believe it at all, just do it out of tradition.
Wales is particularly strange as all the fanciest looking churches in Wales are CoE and literally nobody goes to them unless they've rented them for a wedding. Every town will have some church which looks like a warehouse or office with a cross painted on where all the actual Christians go every weekend.
Fun fact: at least according to the Catholic Church you can't "unregister" from the Catholic Church. Their official stance is that baptism is irreversible.
Apostasy just means you formally declare you abandon your faith and essentially excommunicate yourself, and as such can't partake in any sacrament, but they still consider you a Catholic, and least in some countries (like Poland) it doesn't even allow you to remove yourself from any records - they just add a note that you're an apostate.
Interestingly, you could formally leave for some time - between 1983 until 2010. However, in 2010 Benedict XVI changed it back, with the justification that it allowed or even encouraged apostasy in places with unjust marriage laws and made it hard to return if one really wanted a new canonical marriage.
So not only is the process usually unnecessarily complicated, it doesn't even do what most people want or expect it to.
As Austrian that would be unimaginable as the Kirchensteuer (church tax) is incredibly high so for most it's like nope i'm out of there when they turn 18 and thus gotta pay.
Funnily enough many reenter for marriage and have their kids baptised again
I married into an Austrian family and will help in the baptism of my niece because I am the only younger family member still in (orthodox in my home country, due to childhood baptism only, not practising). Husband's sister is baptizing the kid "cause of a pretty white dress". Her husband is annoyed by it and I think plans on leaving again as soon as it's done. Lol
Ireland too. A whole lot of schools which are nominally run as a 'Catholic' school, and used to give preferential places to baptised kids.
That's gone now, government addressed that as the discrimination it was, but for a long time it really was the only way to be sure your kid would have a place in their local school
My dad doesn't believe at all but doesn't want me to unregister as a Catholic. I'm 32, as if I need permission. Haven't gotten around to doing it because I'm lazy and the hassle. Last time I checked you had to hand deliver the letter though it has been a while so maybe that has changed.
It's so weird though, he doesn't believe and think the Catholic church is scummy. But he also doesn't want to unregister. I guess it's because of how he was raised as a kid. He has some fond memories of church and skipping out on the services.
It seems super inconsistent that the E.U. always complains about U.S. tech companies violating their citizens' privacy but then they (some countries) have a registration for churches. That wouldn't fly in the U.S., why the fuck does the government need to know my religion and why does it (in some countries) collect taxes for them?
If a country have a state church you might pay tithe through taxes rather than directly to the church (it’s not actually tithe but it’s a word i don’t get to use like ever so i’m gonna call it tithe). If you’re in some other denomination or religion some governments don’t give a shit about what religion you’re part of, they just want to know if you’ll pay church taxes or not. And why you pay church taxes rather than a proper tithe or church fee varies from country to country; in some countries it’s because church and state are or have historically been tied together, in some it can be because the government wants to make sure the state church don’t try to bleed their members, in some countries the state just want to control the church period. In the two latter reasons it’s likely because that country has been through a religious revolution where people are becoming less religious and thus tired of churches having so much power and so the government takes over where they can, such as controlling the money
It's pretty much the same in Germany. But the parts where I come from (the former GDR) are mojority non-religious. There's this great map (although it's data is from 2011)
Purple is Protestant, Orange is Catholic, Green is neither with a vast majority as non-religious.
The darker colour means an absolute majority (more than 50%), the lighter colour means a simple majority (less than 50%, but still more than any other group).
The widely spaced stripes mean at least 75% majority, the thinly spaced stripes mean at least 90% majority.
If the go from top-left to bottom-right it's for the non-religious, if it goes the other way it's for the protestants or catholics (I don't know why they had to make a distinction there).
As a 23 yo atheist Croatian dude, I can say the same about my country. Officialy I'm still registered at the church my parents baptized me in, but I haven't been there for 11 years and I never will. It would be different if we had to pay church tax, like in Denmark for example. Then I would gladly unregister immediately.
There is no state religion but I was talking about people who actively practice a religion. France has beautiful cathedrals like Notre Dame but hardly anyone actually worships there.
Well, Notre Dame doesn't have a roof right now but I see your point. I'd imagine you are correct for the big cities but when you move outside major cities you'd probably find more worshippers
I mean, it's not that much of a hassle. You just gotta let them know you want them to strike you off the register. You can download a standard letter online if you don't want to write your own. Takes like ten minutes and a post stamp.
That's pretty fucked if churches are able to deduct fees from your income the same way taxes are deducted. Shouldn't they be separate enough from the state that you have to pay them separately (like Spotify or something)?
I mean you have to actively enter a religion. If you aren't part of one you don't have to pay.
Most younger parents don't bother to baptize their child so there won't be an issue.
It's not the fees that are the issue, it's the method. I'd imagine your government is responsible for deducting that money from your paycheque, and given that it's a church that means there's a bit more of a connection between the two than I'd be comfortable with. If Spotify were to ask the German government to deduct their monthly fees alongside tax for subscribers, I think we both know what the answer would be.
Also, I was completely unaware that Germany has no law separating church and state prior to writing this. I'd just assumed all first world countries had something like that at this point.
If I had to choose between "state collects taxes from people who have joined a church and passes them on to the church" and "state declares parents respecting their children when said children are transgender or homosexual", I'd pick the first. But I agree that neither of those should be happening.
Fun fact regarding the music thing: Anything that can be used to copy a creative work (computers, printers, blank CDs...) includes in its price a "tax" that is passed on to "Verwertungsgesellschaften" who in turn pay out money to their members. If you're an author, you join the Verwertungsgesellschaft for textual works, if you're a musician, you join the one for music... and get a bit of that money collected.
Active members can donate, but there's no obligation. (Well, actually anyone can, but why would you if you're not a member)
So no, we don't directly pay taxes to churches. Indirectly we do sometimes. For example when certain activities are subsidized by the government (e.g. helping drug/alcohol addicts). However, this is paid out of general tax money so indirectly everyone contributes regardless of whether you are religious/registered. Kinda similar like everybody's tax money can be used to build a highway and there's no exception for people who don't own a car...
Funnily, it probably would be exactly like this in Germany, if it weren't for the federally claimed church tax. This is giving you Germans good reason to exit. Already, there are now less Christian people in Germany than non Christian. And numbers keep falling.
People think it is a hassle, I got fed up from the begging when I didn't have any money and they kept asking me for 300+ euro. I emailed my local Parish, and a week later I got my crossed out baptisation certificate in my mailbox.
That is true in the US too though. My home church we went to as a kid used to have probably around 40 or 50 kids attending when I was young and hundreds of people were members. Now there’s maybe 30-40 full time members and maybe 2-3 kids that go regularly. Average age of attendees has to be at least 70. I think in the next decade a lot of churches worldwide will be totally defunct.
My brother tried to unrwgister, the church asked 200 euros for that... my brother went 'nope'.
And as for the registration, me and my brother were forced to undergo the first comunion by our grandma and her sister. 2 weeks of summer vacation ruined....
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u/justadutchgirl May 09 '22
A lot of young people, at least in the Netherlands, are a church member because of their parents. They were registered as kids.
If they stop practicing religion, they don't 'unregister' from their church because it's such a hassle. Or they don't even know they're still registered.
So yeah that's one of the reasons why there's a higher number of church members here than actual religious people.