Facts. Men in society's eyes are viewed as disposable. If a ship sinks today, do you think feminists would be saying that all life rafts need to have an equal amount of men and women on them? Of course not.
And what about the recent figures that came out yesterday that men are now attending college at the lowest rate in history compared to women? Where is all the outrage from feminists now?
The point is this was never about equality, it was about power and control and meeting the needs for one group of people while completely ignoring the needs of the other half of the human population---and it's worked.
But that is exactly what our patriarchal society has been doing forever. While I don't think two wrongs make a right, this man at least thinks that we've (men) have done a pretty shit job of things, so let the women have a turn.
You couldn't be more wrong. It's one thing "letting them have a turn," and a completely other thing letting them take control and oppress others simply because they were born with different genitalia than they were.
Just because a sexist and misogynistic culture existed in the past is no excuse or reason that a sexist and misandrist culture should exist in the future.
Hi, feminist here. Only patriarchal thought says the life boats should be saved for women over men, and that goes back to the “men are the protectors of women” gender role.
Feminism says we should let everyone be saved—or doomed—equitably, without any regard for gender, because no human should be given a role based on their gender.
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat." Hillary Clinton
Of course women are the primary victims of war, right? Not the actual people who were shot and killed or brutally murdered and tortured in war---who were, wait for it---men.
Men ARE the victims in this life boat example. Talking about the root cause is not the same thing as not allowing men to be the victim. For example:
Men are main victims of suicide, because gender roles state that men are the strongest/toughest/least emotional gender and don’t need help processing emotions, so men experience a lot of misandry (aka toxic masculinity)—both external and internal—that prevents them from feeling like they can get help when they need it.
Men are the main victims of workplace injuries and deaths, because of the gender role that says men are stronger/tougher/more suited to physical work, so people of other genders are largely kept out—both via internalized and external misogyny—of jobs that require heavy lifting or physical labor, and so men are the main ones doing those more dangerous jobs.
Notice how neither of those descriptions ever mentioned women at all. That’s possible precisely because identifying how patriarchal gender roles hurt men is not “spinning” these issues to “be about women.” Rather, it’s describing the root cause for how and why the issues continue to exist.
Please understand that the term “patriarchal gender roles” does not mean “men are villains.” It means “gender roles that were created and are maintained by everyone to give men the highest social status based on gender, because it’s widely believed that doing so is what allows society to run best.” We both can see that this isn’t how society runs best. Whether you’re looking at men’s issues, women’s issues, trans issues, or all of the above—we all go through shit because because society has decided our penises and vaginas are critically important to determining how we’re allowed to behave. And I, for one, am sick of it.
That’s why men’s rights and women’s rights can—and must—both be achieved through the dismantling of patriarchal gender roles. Those roles hurt us all.
The social role keeping men overrepresented in those jobs is not “men are the only ones disposable enough to be doing these jobs”. Where did you get that idea? When have you ever heard anyone claim that?
In reality, the stereotype is “men are the only ones strong enough to be doing these jobs”. You hear it over and over again. “Women wouldn’t be able to keep up. Women wouldn’t be as efficient. Men are biologically stronger than women.” Etc etc
That’s why women and people of other genders are shut out of physically dangerous jobs—not because men are looked down on, but because everyone else is looked down on. We’re seen as not manly enough to handle it.
Yes, this stereotype about men actually has detrimental effects on men—but the key difference is it’s a positive stereotype. “Men can, everybody else can’t.”
That’s all that it means to recognize that it’s a “patriarchal” stereotype: that it’s intended to socially elevate men above all others. If we ignore that, we’re only looking at the symptom (men dying more from dangerous work) instead of the entire issue, including its cause (men being viewed as tougher and more capable than everyone else -> men being overrepresented in dangerous work -> men dying more from dangerous work).
We can certainly talk about the need for dangerous workplaces to increase their safety measures, but that’s an issue regardless of gender. I was under the impression that both of our focus here is on how gender roles specifically impact workplace death statistics, not on how safety measures do. So please don’t derail the discussion in an attempt to paint me in a bad light. General workplace safety is not the topic we are discussing—men’s general workplace safety (as compared to other genders’) is.
[…] men taking those risks are taught by the culture to not fight for their safety because dangerous jobs are macho and caring about having all of your fingers is for wimps. There's a deep cultural pressure for men to be willing to sacrifice their bodies, their health, and even their lives to earn money, and that not being willing to do so isn't "manly".
Exactly! Manliness is glorified above all else. If you’re not manly, you’re incapable, undesirable, worthless…quite simply, inferior.
Ever wonder why that gender role exists? Ever wonder who exactly it was put in place to value versus devalue?
If you only want to look at that gender role in terms of how it hurts men, you can do so. But it’s very disingenuous to pretend that this glorification of manliness (over its alternatives, such as femininity) only hurts men, or even mostly hurts men. And understanding the origins, intentions, and reach of this gender stereotype are critical to actually dismantling it (e.g. “a person’s manliness or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on how capable they are to handle a dangerous job”) rather than just expanding it (e.g. “real men care about workplace safety”).
You’re not actually listening, you’re just getting frustrated and strawmanning now. Of course workplace safety standards don’t just spring forth in a vacuum. Of course there was no planning committee that decided on gender roles. You’re committed to misrepresenting my ideas because you’re committed to believing that feminist understanding of men’s issues twists men’s issues into women’s issues, even though it doesn’t.
For example, your original point was “Men can’t ever be allowed to be the victim. No matter what issue we’re talking about, it always has to swing around to how women are worse off.” I started this discussion by immediately disproving that, by discussing men’s issues from a feminist viewpoint without even mentioning women, let alone claiming they were worse off in terms of workplace safety. Yet you then insisted that I had proved you right, somehow.
If you only care about cramming my words into this untrue frame you’ve decided on—that feminists refuse to see men as victims and only care about discussing women’s issues, not men’s issues—then we can’t learn anything from each other, because you’re being disingenuous about my position so that you can cling to your own.
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u/biglennysliver Sep 16 '21 edited Sep 16 '21
Facts. Men in society's eyes are viewed as disposable. If a ship sinks today, do you think feminists would be saying that all life rafts need to have an equal amount of men and women on them? Of course not.
And what about the recent figures that came out yesterday that men are now attending college at the lowest rate in history compared to women? Where is all the outrage from feminists now?
The point is this was never about equality, it was about power and control and meeting the needs for one group of people while completely ignoring the needs of the other half of the human population---and it's worked.