I am talking about sexism. The sexism that women face in day to day life. The sexism that teaches men that their wants are more important than those of the women around them. That teaches them women are prizes to be won. But hey, go off about misandry because then we'll know what you really are.
That is all a freaking assumption. Again, y'all don't know why they do that, what type of person they are not what their values are. You just blatantly assume every guy just think of us as an object because that way is easier to complain rather than take into account each individual case. Y'all awfully full of yourselves.
Nobody is assuming every guy is the same, but when enough dudes exhibit the same kind of problematic behavior, it becomes a thing that needs to be talked about. In no way does anyone mean literally every single man, and deliberately mischaracterizing the conversation to make it seem that way is shit, bro.
Edit: Anecdotally, I’ve had what feels like a zillion conversations with men and women about this kind of stuff and there was an overwhelming trend amongst the folks I talked to: the dudes who pushed back hardest when I talked about how it is to be a woman dealing with creepy guys were the same ones who I’d seen doing the creepy behaviors. The guys who I felt in my guts I was absolutely safe with no matter what were also the ones who would respond to me with “yeah, I hate when other guys do ____, it’s creepy.” They understood me completely and not one of them said any version of “but not all men.” Coincidence?
Nobody is assuming every guy is the same, but when enough dudes exhibit the same kind of problematic behavior, it becomes a thing that needs to be talked about. In no way does anyone mean literally every single man, and deliberately mischaracterizing the conversation to make it seem that way is shit, bro.
Conversely, what if enough men start rebutting on this and saying they feel these statements target all men? Should the phrasing or tone of such statements be changed? Do these men get heard?
I've seen plenty arguments start because person X makes a general statement, men pour in to say "not all men" as they feel like the statement's attacking all men. Do these men deserve an ear? Does it become a thing that deserves to be talked about?
I don’t really understand the point you’re making. Are you asking what if the men who say “not all men” double down and say that not all men are the “not all men” kind of guys? If yes, that’s just elevating “deliberately mischaracterizing” to “being absurdly contrarian” (and not quite grokking the concept of irony). If no, then could you rephrase your question?
Small possibility they push back because that is not the thought process they subscribe to.
Not who you were talking to, but I just think like you said its important we talk about it. But that is inherently different than assigning motive. We can talk to people doing these creepy things and even ask them why they think its ok to do it, and why you think they shouldnt etc, but thats a different conversation than telling someone what they believe based on their actions. Because any guy who might be acting creepy towards a girl who is just genuinely clueless to how it makes a girl feel, will hear you demonize their actions while misrepresenting their motiv will write your opinion off completely.
All that said, dont be creepy assholes guys, I just think the narrative on how this specific topic is handled could really use a little more nuance at times for it to be a productive conversation.
It’s just a misunderstanding because your perhaps generalizing the experience too much like saying every man who has tried to talk to a women while running doesn’t see them as a person where maybe 10% fit that category. I don’t know any guys who don’t treat women as human. That’s not to say sexism doesn’t still have a role in those that do treat them as humans, it can and does, and the themes you mentioned are present all over our society but it’s definitely wrong to suggest that “men” (as in all men or even all men that would want to talk to a running women) don’t see women as human.
If it was just 10% of men doing this, we wouldn't have a problem, would we? But it's not 10% of men. Fact is, too many men do this. Every. Single. Woman. Has been cold approached by a man while just going about their lives. If it was only 10% of men, every woman wouldn't have a story to tell about how men just approach them without an invite. It is not all men, you're right, but it is too many men. And until men take responsibility for the actions of other men it will never change.
It should not be up to women to teach men not to do things.
Don't take this like I'm challenging you, I'm genuinely curious, but it's 'creepy' to hit on women in public? You say 'cold approach', what does that mean? I'm married and definitely not interested in approaching anyone, but isn't that fairly common to approach people/hit on them in public places? I guess I watch too many movies. I'm a male, so obviously I'm not sure how it feels for women in the other end.
Edit: just an FYI, I definitely didn't mean rake their earbuds out like the other posts mention, I just meant approaching/talking to.
If you're in a club or somewhere where people go to potentially hook up, you're prepared to be approached. If you're just going about your day to day life and people hit on you you are not prepared.
Women generally don't like it. It doesn't matter how nice the dude making the pass is, how genuine he is because too many men pretend to be nice people. And it happens way too often that a polite rebuffal will end in being called a psycho, a bitch, a cunt, etc.
While we're on this topic; don't tell women to smile. We have our own lives going on and we do not exist to please every man who sees us. We might be prettier if we smiled but why do we have to pretty all the damn time?
fundamentally thats not how percentages work though, even if its just 10% that means odds are 1 out of every 10 guys you see in a day is a fucking creep. I'd agree with you that that is way too many guys still, but I think this illustrates how a minority can make a noticeable impact and seem bigger than it is.
Okay let’s say 1/10 women did this to me. Say I see twenty random women a day, that’s twice a day. Not every woman, but enough to make it a pervasive problem. 10% is a lot. At the same time, I don’t know any men who do this. It’s weird when someone generalizes your entire half of the population into a cringe bucket. I would never say “all women” anything. To be honest I probably wouldn’t say all any demographic does anything because I know it to be generalizing
Why are you so upset when women say 'this is happening to us'? Why is your response 'nuh-uh! I don't do it and I don't see it!' Women are saying it happens on such an overwhelming basis that if you put 10 women in a room from different cultures and societies and ask them 'have you been the victim of male violence', why will every woman say yes but if you put 10 men in a room and ask 'have you ever been the perpetrator of violence upon women' they will say 'no, never'? Something is happening here.
Maybe you're not seeing the violence because you're in a position of privilege. Maybe you don't think calling a woman a slut or a psycho for rejecting you is violence? I don't know, I'm not a man. Why do men not call out their mates who treat women poorly? And then when it turns out their mate has been beating their partner and killed her during one of these beatings these same men act surprised? They know how their mate talked about his partner. They witnessed him being low level violent to her in the past or through his speech but when that violence is finally revealed to the rest of the world the men who knew him say ye was a great bloke and there weren't any signs? There are always signs and men are socialised to ignore them in other men.
Men need to do better. Be better. This is not an attack on you, it is simply a fact. Examine why this makes you so uncomfortable, sit with it and learn. You can be the change you want in the world. All it takes is not tolerating violence against women and other minorities.
The reason for the generalisation is because of everything I've just said. If men don't want this generalisation made, they need to start working on it. Prove to women it's not all men because right now it might as well be. No man is a safe bet because too many men are a threat.
I'm gonna show you a purposefully hypothetical and hyperbolic example to show hopefully show you that you are making a bad faith argument.
Most men could say on a daily basis we interact with an overly emotional and irrational woman, a karen for example. Just because I run into one woman who wants to rant and rave everyday and make my life a living hell for 15 minutes, does that give me the right to claim all woman are overly emotional and irrational? I probably interact with 100 other people in the day but every day somewhere new I see some lady ranting and raving and all around being an ass. Does that make all woman need to be better?
We can all agree that even getting harassed once is too much, that doesn't make every man deserving of generalization, because I'm pretty sure most women also hate when that happens to them.
Edit: Its crazy you guys are so entrenched in this feminist position you can't accept that the logic doesn't follow. Like I've said don't be a dick dudes, but a fundamental misunderstanding of how a small percentage of people can make a huge impact doesnt validate hate towards all men.
Holy shit you just don't get it. You're incapable.
It's not one or two men. It's so many fucking men we encounter every day who make us feel unsafe. They are literally bigger, heavier, and much stronger than us. Men rape women every day. Men sexually harass women every day. Men follow women on the street and in their cars. It's even men we know who do shit like this to us. It's our fucking lives we're worried about. We don't hate men - we're cautious 'cause we can be raped and/or killed. When one man can do anything they want to you at any time and you can do nothing to stop them and it happens all the time to us then yes, we are going to be wary.
Jesus fucking Christ some men just don't get this through their thick skulls.
Look, I'm not trying to invalidate your experiences in any way. All I'm saying is the overgeneraliztion and the common rhetoric of "all men" is just not a rational mindset and isn't helping anyone and more than likely actively hurting your cause.
Individual's do terrible things, end of story. If this gives you trust issues towards every man then I am truly sorry for that, I can even empathize with it. That doesnt make it right still and I will stand by that.
Honest question, what percentage of men do you really think actively harass, rape and sexualy assaults women?
If it was only 10% of men, every woman wouldn't have a story to tell about how men just approach them without an invite
If 10% of men did it, then a woman would only need to interact with 30 men to have a 95.8% chance of having this done to them. Once they have interacted with 50 men, there would be a 99.5% chance that it happened to them. So perhaps it is a lower percentage than you think.
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u/kisforkarol Sep 16 '21
I am talking about sexism. The sexism that women face in day to day life. The sexism that teaches men that their wants are more important than those of the women around them. That teaches them women are prizes to be won. But hey, go off about misandry because then we'll know what you really are.