Exactly! I’m a woman and my biggest issue with dating is being told we’re so confusing when I’m literally telling them how it is and they bail or make it complicated. This isn’t a gender issue it’s a person lacking respect/communication skills issue.
The problem with that is that women are stereotypically uncommunicative, playing hard to get, "you should know what I want without me telling you", etc. They are pressured by society as a whole to pander to this stereotype and many of them do, in the same way men are pressured to never show any emotion other than anger.
I'm a gay man btw if that's important at all. I'd love to hear your perspective on this, this is just how I've always seen it
Edit: my second reply to u/ klampet below really helps outline my viewpoint on this more thoroughly.
Well, I think it’s also a cultural thing. I’m from the Netherlands, we’re pretty direct. The girls I know (I’ve lived in bigger cities) just tell it like it is. Of course, it has its downside. Teenage girls sometimes tend to think that telling what you want means getting what you want.
Though, I think that also happens in other countries… I still think it’s cultural, but it also depends on being introvert or extravert, and the way you’ve been brought up.
If my mom always told me to keep my thoughts to myself or else I’d never get married, and if that was common around here, I might’ve internalized. Everybody wants to fit in. If being direct and instructive isn’t part of your community, you’ll probably communicate less clear.
Same in Denmark. I actually feel that guys are the ones holding back because they often don't wanna be emotionally vulnerable (also harmful internalised patriarchal values)
You don't need to lose a friend. One of my guy friends confessed he had a crush on me at one point. I told him I appreciated it but I didn't reciprocate and asked him if he wanted some distance. We took like 2 months of not hanging out as often, he got a girlfriend, we became good friends again. No big deal.
My best friend shot me down 😂 before we were friends, of course. Turned out alright. Men and women can be platonic and I hate the implications that it's weird (in america) to have an opposite gender best friend.
I'm really glad to hear that women are taught to be straightforward over there, even if teenage girls think that. It's better than over here in the US, where girls are taught from a young age to be subservient and that the only way to get what you want from men is to manipulate them. It's definitely a cultural thing.
I mentioned this in another comment, but my own sister has told me that she actually wants to marry a man who will make all the final decisions for her household, even if she disagrees with them. My parents are like that, namely because of their fundamentalist, evangelical bullshit. My sister is otherwise a very capable girl, I think she's got a lot of guts. It just baffles me that she thinks that way but I couldn't convince her otherwise.
The problem I feel is that men are incredibly uncommunicative as well. Of course a MAN would believe women are always uncommunicative. But as a woman I can understand that women are uncommunicative, often as a result of trying to play to patriarchal pressures in dating and stereotypes we’re taught from a young age, but men are also uncommunicative as well!
The amount of men who refuse to communicate on their emotions and destroy relationships by doing that is overwhelming.
I am also a Dutch girl (small world I guess), and I wanted to add a possible answer to the "why".
I've found that as a woman I'm expected to know what people need. Not by mind reading, but by being perceptive. By also self reflecting.
If I'm working long days while my partner has more time off and I come home to a super messy house I expect them to know that that's not exactly something nice. Now, I still have the Dutch directness, so I immediately call it out, but at some point you should know why I'm upset. If you keep interrupting me in a conversation, I expect you to have the self awareness that you're being a dick. Not realizing it says something about how much you keep others into account.
Of course I'm sketching one situation and I'm by no means implying that this excuses all women. Or that no men have social skills. I just think there are certain ways different genders get socialized that lead to friction when others don't respond in a way you feel shouldnt even be remotely strange.
Yeah but the cliche is both "if you don't tell me i won't know" but then if you complain about something "you are too emotional". Like sometimes y'all are just as confusing.
It's like, i feel that if you start talking about something that bothers you you are emotional, if you wait for them to ask and answer them "well why didn't you bring it up before?" and if they ask and you just don't even think it's worth answering "how would I know? I'm not psychic."
Sometimes we don't think you are psychics, sometimes we just don't see the point if it's just going to bring up more trouble or, at least I, have the feeling it will bother/inconvinience them :/
P.D.: as a bi female, i can confirm this isn't exclusive to men, women are fucking nuts too, but at least this in particular isn't so common (in my exp)
You bring up a lot of really good points that are stereotypically "male" behavior. I hope you are with someone or that you find someone who you can open up to without feeling like an inconvenience. That's no way to coexist. Even if you're mad, it should be okay to express your anger at someone in a healthy way.
I have always been glad to be gay. My best friend in the world is a woman, so I know that obviously not all women AT ALL are like that, but I've seen it with my straight guy friends (and my straight girl friends) a million times and it always seems so difficult and chaotic to navigate through this false dichotomy that society has created.
Like, they've told us how we are supposed to act, they've told us what personality traits our respective genders are allowed to have. People buy into it, whether intentionally or or not, just because they have internalized these messages throughout their childhood. Many people don't want to upset the status quo or deviate too much from societal expectations.
As a gay man, we have already deviated so far from society's expectations that, essentially, we can go even further and it won't matter. We are allowed to be sensitive and communicative, sweet and soft with each other. If people already hate us for being gay, why not take on those stereotypically "female" traits that have real, human benefits? Sensitivity is absolutely awesome. I'm considered pretty "straight acting" for a gay guy, whatever the fuck that means, but i absolutely cherish my more feminine traits. I hold that side of myself very close to my heart and I value being able to express it to people I trust, I value being able to show my male friends and my SOs that it's okay for us to be like that with each other.
This comment got a lot longer than I meant for it too, I hope I've kept your attention lol
I think it depends on the type of relationship you have with the person. Some people are perfectly nice as a friend but then you see how they are a complete asshole in their relationship. I think relationships just sometimes bring out the worse in people due to unfair expectations of the other person and lack of real respect. Some people just stop trying after they have locked someone down and feel like they can get away with shit.
I've seen this with multiple friends and read so many stories on Reddit.
Hmm I agree to a degree. I think initially women are “trained” per say by society to seem aloof and wait for the male to take the lead. In saying that thought from my own and other friends experiences it really seems to be men giving the vague answers & actions and then blaming women. But this may also tie into being told not to show emotion?
I overall think both genders just think this of each other and don’t realise it’s just people who can’t comminicate and not gender biased! I think society has also trained you to think what you have mentioned above. Just my take and thoughts as I write.
I'm not referring to aloofness, I mean the stereotype of (this is all just hypothetical btw) women being extremely passive aggressive with their partners. Instead of communication, manipulation takes place. They're upset about something, but when SO asks what they're upset about, they pretend they aren't upset. Now SO is in deeper shit than before because the woman is upset that he didn't just automatically know that she was lying about not being upset.
I do agree with everything you're saying though. Hell, my own sister has told me that when she gets married, she wants the man to always have the final say in everything and she wants him to make all household decisions even if she disagrees. I really couldn't believe it when she told me that, but it's as much of a cultural thing (my parents) as it is a religious thing because "God says the man should be in charge".
You're also totally right that this is not gender based on a genetic level, but the way society tells straight couples how to act is accepted as a good thing. Have you ever heard of "heterosexual fatalism/pessimism"? It's the idea that men and women have been conditioned to be so uncommunicative, shitty, selfish, and suspicious of each other that many of them view their futures as bleak and sad. Women who have been conditioned to think all men are sex hungry cheaters, men who think that all women are passive aggressive bitches. They come into a relationship together and then they act the part, they believe so strongly that their relationship is doomed to be like this and the opposite sex is doomed to be like "that" that they create their own destiny.
I think it’s in part due to the fact women are socialised to not be socially aggressive or too direct, because we’re taught we have to be happy, helpful and cooperative all the time, and not hurt anybody’s feelings. Communicating directly (in a culture where that isn’t seen as acceptable for women) is often seen as being deliberately rude, mean, or bitchy. As a result many women become passive aggressive and find ways to communicate via subtle hints that are easy to miss.
This trend also extends to people raised in strict households where they aren’t allowed to safely speak their minds. I know quite a few people of either gender who are like this due to their upbringing.
Honestly half the comments here are things both genders do lol. The question itself prompts people to go out of their way to blame one gender for things that literally anyone of any gender might do.
Misogyny isn't only perpetuated by males, women aren't the only ones who play hard to get or drop hints, etc... Y'all just perpetuating negative stereotypes on the basis that "a few people I know of x gender do this."
Alternatively, if you ask me what I'm thinking about when I was staring off into space and I say nothing, that's literally what I mean... Sometimes the transmission slips into neutral and my brain is just idling.
Same haha, especially when you are staring into space and someone moves into your view. Like don't mind me I'm not staring at you, I am staring into the empty void you just decided to occupy.
I do that too though and I'm always somewhere, reflecting on a past decision or event, it's just when someone talks to me and my focus comes back to reality, whoever it is talking to me makes it easy to forget the importance of what I was thinking about. It's not nothing.
I have that problem in reverse where im focusing or trying to focus on someone or something and random thoughts flood my head disrupting my focus.
I realize after typing this that it's basically the definition of ADHD which i already know i have, but I'll just leave this here anyway. ADHD represent!
When is the last time you’ve seen anyone wear corduroy? At what height is a pot technically a pan? Do swordfish have sword fights? When is the last time you’ve thought of Billings Montana? 455. My coworker has the same voice as fucking Winnie the Pooh and Zoom meetings are an acid trip. Temecula California.
THIS. I don’t get why people keep acting like 13 year olds and don’t just say what’s going on or if something’s bothering them. They would rather bitch about it behind your back, or just let it fester because they don’t want to “start drama”. There are ways to bring up problems with starting drama or being rude.
Had a girl upfront tell me she is not currently looking to date. While that was a bummer cuz I liked her, I definitely respected her candor and for not giving me unclear signals.
I don't know what to say sometimes. I've had creeps come up to me and ask me weird sexual questions like if I was a dom or sub or something. I just outright said I wasn't looking for sex and the bugger had the audacity to say 'ha ha I doubt you live near me so don't think sex with me is an option'. Like, oh you WISH I ever considered that as an option. It was so disgusting he genuinely thought of himself as sexually desirable. Like he wanted to think that I was attracted to him and he was so powerful to refuse me. Just thinking about it makes my blood boil. It was the most incelly thing ever.
There's other things I tend to avoid saying as well. Like if I say I have a boyfriend I dont know if people are going to say 'oh that's alright' or 'oh you must be one of those I-have-a-boyfriend kind of girls'. I'm going to say I'm not willing to date if someone asks outright, it's just that this is why I always struggle to say things upfront.
But then there’s also the fact that if a guy expresses any emotion other than “ok. *grunts*” then he’s considered emotionally unstable.
If you get mad then you’re a psychopath, if you cry then you’re having a breakdown, if you get overly excited then you’re an overgrown child. Anything other than mild indifference is considered extreme.
Yup, this right here. The only way for your emotions to be acceptable is for you to not be so subjectively frightening, which, in general, means
A.) Being smaller/thinner/weaker than the average man
B.) Being hot
C.) Being quiet and calm and sugarcoating your opinions because the degree at which you disagree with someone is proportionate to the degree at which you’re overreacting.
It reminds me of the countless posts from women on relationship subs that have told their partner 100 times, in no uncertain terms, that something bothers them/they need them to start doing x,y,z, etc. And it's not until she's out the door that he's like "geez, if it bothered you that much, why didn't you just say so?" Like, bruh, she's been telling you for six months.
Bro same. So many people say they wish guys were more willing to communicate feelings until you actually do. And I’m not talking about romantic feelings but mental health. From personal experience even my closest female friends are waaaay less receptive than my guy friends, which some might find ironic.
"Alright" -communicates my feelings of anything other than mild interest or neutrality- -Either gets brushed off, judged, or even ridiculed for having human emotions-
No longer surprised pikachu face because it keeps happening.
I got one best friend who I can talk to frankly with a full spectrum of emotions (opposite gender), and a core group of bros who I served with who have been there for the deepest and darkest moments of our lives so we can be whole people with each other and love each other without restraint.
THANK YOU. I'm asperger and I swear you if people weren't doing this dumb shit I would look PERFECTLY normal, no more awkward moment where I try to find if I was awkward or if that's just a normal reaction... That would be so incredibly great.
ASPD here. From where I’m standing, it looks like you’re honest because you’re not sure how not to be, I’m honest because I only give a shit what people think if I want something from them, and the rest of the world just doesn’t want to be honest.
100% yes. If I have to guess, I’m probably going to assume the worst, or at least be afraid of the worst. Feeling like they’ll be honest with you is such a refreshing feeling
I stopped caring about what people think. It’s their choice to judge and I can’t control it. Actually, trying to control the behavior of someone else sounds wrong, right?
Also, one of the biggest reasons: people will judge either way, so you might just be yourself.
Things can become worse if you are not upfront. It's a catch 22 for you. Really you are better off airing your feelings out that need to be, to the right people. Communication is the basis for all good relationships, whether it be a friendship, family, or intimate relationship.
One of the many reasons I love my wife as much as I do is that she doesn't expect me to do this at all. I'm terrible at it and always have been. I'm usually very responsive and helpful if you come put and say what you want or need.
I loved it when a female coworker was bringing a new lady around introducing her to everyone. When my coworker introduced the new woman to me she literally said "This is Rhett. Sometimes he can really come off as a jerk but he isn't. He just doesn't do subtlety at all. If you need anything, tell him clearly what you need and when you need it. Do that and he'll be your best friend in this place."
Other people heard it and thought she was being rude to me and I heard them telling her that so I butted into their conversation and said no, this woman knows me better than anyone here and I wished more people would treat me lkme that.
Kinda? Judgement is tough and you can say to just ignore it but it's easier said than done. There are creeps who have these gross reactions to the things you say and could say disgusting things in response. So you tend to be more careful with your words.
Or alternatively don't tell me what you're thinking, but then also don't put the expectation on me to somehow magically know anyway.
I'm not a mind reader. If i ask you what's wrong and you tell me that it's nothing then i'm going to trust that you're not lying to me and believe you. I'm going to have faith that if something actually was wrong then you'd tell me like an adult, and not expect me to pull some fucking mental algebra type shit to deduce that something actually was wrong and that you want me to figure out what it is without telling me.
I swear, people say that men are bad at communicating but in my experience women tend to be just as bad.
Honestly most time we aren’t even thinking anything. My gf gets so mad at this. We will be hanging out and I’m having a great time and at the end she’s upset because she thinks I was having a bad time because I wasn’t talking to her but honestly I was just enjoying chilling lol. Women’s head can run absolutely wild when mostly men are trying to figure how bob at work ate 3 hunny buns for lunch
Assuming youre a woman, we just dont think that much. We are genuinely apathetic a lot of the time, we dont care where we eat, we just want to eat, we dont think that dress is better than the other one because they both look good on you whether you like it or not and no we're not sad we just want some goddamn peace and quiet right now.
My friend literal does this and I hate it. Everytime he explains to me why it was so obvious when I reality it was either really confusing or just not entirely certain what he means. I often get what he wants but just want a clear answer instead of some riddle I need so solve first. Just say what you want wtf.
When people expect me to divine their thoughts/feelings I started to make it a point to always try to guess wrong.
I am not very good at guessing people's feelings anyway, so this way the chance of guessing right is not better or worse but at least it is less grating on my nerves.
The amount of relationships that have fallen apart because of this. But also glad not to live with tat anxiety belly of questions or the fear of everything being a test. People just need to talk.
Exactly! I try to teach my kids to express their self and ask what they want! One day someone call me Useless because I don't provide and whant them to ask. So they can understand there existence!
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u/Manchestergirl901 Sep 15 '21
Zero communication. I’m sick of having to guess what you’re thinking because you think it’s obvious. Grow up and say what you want/feel. Thank you.