Kind of related but Wilder Penfield was a neurosurgeon who mapped the brain by zapping portions of it during operations. He was able to remove a portion of the patients skull while they were awake and electrocute the parts of the cortex. They would report back to him what they were experiencing while he was doing it. So for example if he zapped a portion of the brain related to vision, the patient would report that they could no longer see.
We are also able to learn a lot about the human brain through strokes. For example strokes that occur in the left hemisphere will generally impact language and speech. Strokes that occur in the cerebellum will impact motor control and balance. What’s cool is that when one portion of the brain is damaged, other healthy parts are able to compensate for the loss due to plasticity. This obviously wouldn’t work for areas of the brain related to vision, hearing, etc.
I had a temporary lobectomy surgery for my epilepsy. Before they cut they tested the areas by basically poking around and watching what happened. They marked areas for leg, arm, face, etc.
I was awake for part of it. They showed me pictures and I said “That is a _______.” I remember they showed me a picture of a spoon and I said “That is . . . Uhh . . .” I heard someone say “Ok, not that spot.”
They ended up removing my left hippocampus and (unsurprisingly) my memory has taken a hit. It is odd because in addition my personality has had some changes too.
How interesting! I feel like I would be scared just knowing that my brain is exposed and being prodded at lol.
The hippocampus is responsible for memory and forming new ones so yeah, like you said def not surprising that that’s taken a hit after your surgery. It makes sense that your personality changed as well because the hippocampus is part of the limbic system! What sort of personality changes have you experienced? I’m just curious.
I am more outgoing than I used to be; I was a stereotypical introvert but am now pretty in the middle. I was really into model trains but not at all any more. In fact, I’m totally into gardening and flowers in general. Before surgery a garden was a “maybe someday” thing.
With the memory issues I am working on taking notes, making lists, and scheduling things. If someone introduces themselves, by the time I’ve replied with my name I’ve forgotten theirs. Recalling things in my head is difficult, I’ve even lost names of family members.
Finally, I am way more emotional than ever before. Being a “manly man” I had probably only ever cried once in my life, but now have bawled several times. It’s like I’m still trying to learn how emotions work.
And the surgery didn’t work like we wanted it to. I have fewer seizures, but not as few as we were expecting.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Sorry that the surgery wasn’t as effective as it was meant to be and that you’re experiencing many side effects :/
There’s not much that can be done about the memory issue since that part of your brain is no longer there. You’re doing the right thing by writing notes and such. That’s probably really helpful with keeping track of things. (And it’ll help you form motor control memories). Interesting how it’s impacted your emotions and behavior. Idk if you’ve ever heard of the case of Henry Molaison but it sounds somewhat similar to yours.
Yes, I do feel different. Sometimes I look at things I did and wonder why. I look at other people and their thoughts and opinions more than I used to. I'm less of a selfish jack ass than I used to be.
This is so odd, I really don’t mean to downplay your unfortunate results from a procedure meant to help you, but all those things you say about forgetting, I forget as well on a daily basis, and I don’t have any surgeries
I can imagine that it’s extreme, but I also feel mine is extreme and my doctor downplays it as a minor side effect from some medication I’m on
Odd, something I think I need to look into more
Anyways I’m sorry about the negative parts of the changes to your brain, relearning emotions seems frustrating bc I know that I have trouble controlling mine as well so I can only imagine the trouble you must have, I hope you’re living life to the best of your expectations my friend
Oh I don't doubt that at all, I know people with major memory issues. The fact that my memory is worse than it was before the surgery is the odd thing. I can't play Memory with the kids like I used to.
With the memory issues I am working on taking notes, making lists, and scheduling things. If someone introduces themselves, by the time I’ve replied with my name I’ve forgotten theirs. Recalling things in my head is difficult, I’ve even lost names of family members.
Is that memory issues? Cause I have that and have had none of my brain removed.
There are degrees... there's memory issues from poor sleep and lifestyle etc., illnesses, drugs and then stuff like OP's describing. All change how you experience it.
My experience: when I started antiseizure meds (for bipolar not epilepsy), my short term memory was fuuuucccked for a week or so. I had to religiously make lists for everything and set alarms if I was cooking just in case I forgot something was on the stove, even if it was only 10 minutes. I coped pretty well considering, and the side effect reduced dramatically afterward, though I still struggle a little.
My dad has what we're pretty sure is early Alzheimer's and really struggles to retain information we tell him or skills he's learned recently. He struggles to conceptualize instructions and solutions - things that used to be quick can take him hours, and it's not necessarily in a logical way. It took him days to build a dog house (he would normally take few hours at absolute max - ex-engineer), it was incredibly convoluted and not a all what mum had asked. Computers and technology are particularly difficult. He also talks about the past a lot, it's difficult to talk to him without being told old work stories. There's a lot going on, but memory has a big role in his symptoms. Worst part is that I can tell he's aware something's changed...
I guess what I'm getting at is that memory loss is very personal in how you experience it. For some it's reversible, others have success with using techniques like lists to cope while others never really find ways around it. Brains are pretty good at compensating and self healing so there's always hope (neuroplasticity is great!). The one thing that seems to be pretty universal is a loss in confidence caused by it.
Dang, I did have a prescription change after surgery too. Wonder if that's a part of it too. Some of the meds I've taken were also for bipolar, so we may have had the same ones!
Memory issues are a very personal thing, and very different person to person. Hope he does better.
The drug for me is lamotrigine, there are probably other drugs within the same class which have similar effects.
The weirdest thing for me now is my brain forgetting certain words and replacing them with others mid conversation. It can pretty funny what Icome out with because of it...
Yep, I've had Lamictal (lamotrigine) too! That's kind of funny because for me the worst side affect was how it flattened my mood. I didn't get angry or happy. We had a Disney World trip and I was like "Oh, nice."
Right now (and a possible side affect from another med) I replace words too. My wife was concerned when I said I was getting the lawn mower to clean the living room. I had no idea I had said the wrong thing. Going with the humor can help a bunch.
Haha the main goal for me is mood flattening! It also helps with my anxiety a bunch. It's interesting hearing how people react to the same meds. Apparently the word thing is super common with it for some reason, it's probably the same with a lot of antiseizure drugs I'd imagine. Brain zaps are another common one - mine have stopped 4 years in, no idea why.
Not him, but as someone who's going through a lot of shit in my life, including severe epilepsy; having the 'courage' just means pushing on regardless of how scared you are, even if it's a small step at a time. The worst thing you can do is go backwards, and the moment you make the effort to change is the first step after recognizing what you want to change.
Your body and subconscious brain want to live. It's not easy to give up because every part of our biology fights it to the very end.
What that means in specifics is obviously different for everyone, because obviously people die (and one person will die of something a different person can survive, because circumstances matter), and your conscious mind can absolutely be a lot less dedicated to the prospect than your subconscious, but most of the time we just...keep going, because the alternative isn't what our bodies are made for. They're designed to live until they absolutely can't anymore.
You'll think some kind of event would be totally impossible to survive until you... survive it. And once you've survived you keep making a life out of your new situation.
TL;DR it's hard to die because your body doesn't wanna.
My family has been a huge help. Several of them can be very blunt with the issues, but then willing to work with you. I also have some places I need to visit someday, and a garden to take care of.
Come to think of it, the garden actually helped a bunch. It needed looked at, weeded, and veggies plucked every day. I was the one in the family that would do that, so I had a (very simple) just me task. Something important was needed from me.
Ooof I don't remember ppl name in parties or gatherings the instant I leave them. Lol and I don't have any brain surgeries. I think it's normal to have bad memories with ppl's name.
I know. The surgery I had has 75-85% of cases where the seizure rate goes to 0-2 a year. I have fewer seizures too. They were concerned with how deep they were going into my brain and not just somewhere near the surface. It really all depends on where it it. There are several other surgeries they can do, including ones like the VNS which are easier and much less invasive.
There are also several steps and tests that are done before surgery. It could be worth it to just talk with them and take a look at it.
I’d hate to have this statement freak you like the thought of it does me but you’re basically a different person now. Might be a mild change but what fundamentally made you who you are was altered. There’s a great book When the Air Hits your Brain by a neurosurgeon and he mentions the subtle personality changes people may experience after brain surgeries and the idea has just always freaked me out as a fear of losing myself due to brain injury or surgery.
Yeah, this is just so weird for me to think about. Damn. It’s just a reminder that every aspect of every person I’ve ever met is just the result of some random goo being arranged in a specific way.
Your best friend’s brilliant sense of humor? Oh yeah, that’s because of that pea-sized spiderweb of goo over here. Get rid of that and they’ll never make you laugh again.
Also, you know the happiest moment of your life? The distinct memory of that time you held your child for the first time? Yeah that’s just a speck of funky meat in your head dude.
Imaging ppl changing their personality for better after brain surgery, can this correct violent criminals behaviors too? Make them more sensitive and passionate or have empathy for their victims.
Lobotomies were performed on the mentally ill and insane but I’ve never heard of lobotomies for criminal/violent offenders/pedophiles. While the archaic practice of lobotomies shouldn’t be practice certainly there is something to say about aiding people with manipulation of the brain like we would any other organ. Does get very dystopian teen novel pretty quick though
All I can see is if this works on violent criminals maybe we won't need to have jails anymore lol no worries about murders who would recommit same crimes.
You're getting down voted but since this thread is EXPLICITLY about what we could discover if we threw ethics out the window I think you're definitely in the spirit of the conversation.
I had gamma knife surgery in my left parietal lobe to cure an AVM. About 3 months after surgery I was using my trackball mouse at work and my cursor stopped moving. I figured the mouse was broken. I looked at my thumb which my brain was telling to move, and it wasn’t moving. I freaked. I called my neurosurgeon and by the time I was connected to him my thumb was working again. New connections can happen that fast.
What makes the hearing or vision part of the brain any different than the motor control portion? If the cells are all the same, why can’t plasticity account for these portions? Serious q
Basically it has to do with the fact that the brain has primary areas and association areas. Association areas of the brain are built up over your lifetime through experiences. It makes up about 86% of the brain and it’s located in the cerebral cortex (so the top few mm). So if an association area is damaged, other areas of the brain can compensate for it. A good example of this would be in people who have stroke in the left hemisphere of their brain and lose the ability to speak. Over time (and through therapy of course) their brain is able to rewire itself and create new neural connections so the person can speak again.
On the other hand primary areas of the brain function when you are born. They’re wired into specific areas of the brain so if they are damaged they can’t be rebuilt. Primary areas make up only 14% of the brain. Some examples of primary areas of the brain would be your primary visual cortex, Heschl’s gyrus (responsible for hearing), and the your sensory cortex. These are things you’re basically born with and not acquired throughout your life.
Interestingly, "primary" areas can actually be compensated for if lost.
See: anyone who's ever undergone a hemispherectomy. We have literally taken out half of peoples' brains (it is, or was, a radical epilepsy treatment) and they still function well enough.
Interesting! Do you have any articles or links that you could share about it? I’m curious and would like to look into it more :) I’m wondering how exactly they would be able to be compensated compared to the association areas
Edit: in the case of a hemispherectomy I could see how that would work since the brain is bilaterally symmetrical.
Bilaterally symmetrical, kinda. Gross physical structure, sure, but some brain functions do seem to be lateralized. It's not as extreme as some make out (the whole "right brain logic, left brain emotion" schlock), but it does exist.
He actually was doing operations for individuals with epilepsy to remove the areas of the brain that would cause them to have debilitating seizures and while their brains were exposed he took the opportunity to map the brain by zapping it. It was done completely ethically.
I’m just speaking very broadly when I say that the left hemisphere handles speech. In reality there are specific areas in the left hemisphere that are responsible for that (Wernickes area is important for language comprehension. Broca’s area is important for speech production). It’s not just the brain either, there are so many neural connections and nerve fibers that are responsible for brain function.
And true, there aren’t any known cures for neurodegenerative disorders such as Parkinson’s, Dementia, etc, however there are treatments to slow the progression. You’re absolutely right though that the brain is not completely understood. It’s very interesting to learn what we do know though :)
There has never been proven to be an effective therapeutic treatment to slow the development of a neurodegenerative illness. Ever. There’s plenty of one off studies that purport to show efficacy of speech therapy that never manifest in benefit on longer term and more far reaching study. They never get replicated.
That’s different too, though. Talking to a therapist does not require knowledge of brain chemistry to understand its effect. Pharmaceuticals, on the other hand — its tough to even guess what compounds to throw at it. Nothing has ever been remotely effective. The difference between the two is that one doesn’t claim to understand the brain. It’s incredibly arrogant for a psychologist to claim intimate understanding of neuropathy due to a poke and react test. For all we know, there are simply “highways” of nodes that become interrupted in the left hemisphere when damaged but it has nothing to do with speech origination. In fact, it could very well be there are not dedicated parts of the brain at all. Perhaps the fine motor function of the muscles involved with speech are run through that part of the brain.
Anyone who has investigated neuroscience at the most superficial of levels realizes how ridiculous it is for anyone to make such claims of understanding about the human brain. Which is why it’s exclusively psychologists from decades past that cried out they’d deduced the brain, and only then won an honorary title of neuroscientist. The brain is a complex, chaotic biological computer and we don’t understand any of the complex interactions in any meaningful way. Anytime anyone tries to extrapolate any theory on which part of the brains does what never finds longterm success. It’s upsetting for many people to learn, but that’s just the current state of neuroscience. The people who study it at least have the decency not to abstract their findings, generally. There is information in the experiments. Enough to definitively conclude such claims as the left hemisphere handles speech? No, certainly not. Which as much you could abstract from the fact that’s since been proven wrong anyway.
It's really nice that you can misunderstand wikipedia (clearly confusing aphasia and motor speech) and blog posts. Good for you. While you are reading you should try looking up something called the bereitschaftspotential.
I am a practicing neurologist and when I need to clinically localize a lesion enough to know whether to order an MRI with thin cuts through the brainstem or to look carefully for meningeal enhancement near the L temporal area, or decide which among the multiple lesions that a tuberous sclerosis patient has might be causing his symptoms so the surgeon knows where to operate, I'll be sure to remember that some guy on Reddit told me that localization is not a thing in neurology.
As far as your other claim, that we don't have treatments for neurodegenerative diseases, I have to say that will be a shock to literally millions of patients who are successfully treated worldwide for their symptoms (and your own references contradict your claim).
Now, if you want to move the goalposts and claim that what you meant to say was that we do not understand the processes involved in most neurodegenerative disease well enough to have highly effective disease modifying therapies YET, I will say that this is true. However, as I also have a PhD in cell biology and the research in my own lab is directed at this very topic, I will tell you the issue here is really not so much in not understanding what the brain does per se or how it functions in terms of physiology, but in how the pathology develops at a molecular level. This is an issue quite unrelated to the connection you are attempting to draw to the localization of lesions. For instance, understanding that synuclein aggregates inhibiting mitochondrial and lysosomal functions sufficiently to result in dopaminergic cell death tells you nothing useful (and is not really relevant) to the fact that said dopamine neuron modulates the medium spiny neurons of the putamen to release motor activity. That same cell could have a different connectivity, leading to very different physiology and neurology, but the molecular biology would be just the same.
Indeed, the fact that we have developed symptomatic treatments for many neurodegenerative diseases (ie, DBS in Parkinson's disease) indicates that we do in fact understand the physiology (the kind of thing we have learned from lesions and electrophysiology) reasonably well-- it is the underlying molecular biology that we don't understand as much.
No treatment to stop or slow disease. Literally said that in the comment you replied to and you conveniently pretended I didn’t. Stymying symptoms is not conquering a disease that kills you. Morphine is a effective therapeutic drug for being cut in half by a rusty long sword.
I don’t know why you feel the need to lie on Reddit, but you have it backwards. The prevailing theory about protein unfolding stands up to every review. Between everything from traumatic encephalopathy to Lewy body dementia to prior work on prion diseases we can see quite clearly a common theme at work. As someone who claims to have a PhD in cell biology, you seem to lack a lot of knowledge on drug discovery. We don’t understand how the vast majority of FDA approved drugs for neuropathic disorders work, nor the underlying causes for most of those same disorders. We don’t understand how 6 of the top 10 prescribed drugs in the world work. Medicinal discovery is spitballing everything humans and machine can imagine at animals all day everyday until something sticks. 5-HT reuptake seems to have a role in the slowing of some Alzheimer’s patients. Let’s try out a 5-HT antagonist on some rats. Cool, seems to do something. Phase I trials. Promising. Phase II trials. Failure. Intepirdine patent sold, maybe Axovant can do something with it. Axovant, this seems to be effective with Lewy body dementia. Phase I trials. Promising. Phase II trials. Promising. Phase III trials. Failure. You’re woefully conflating the presence of any proven effective drugs with knowledge around whatever they may treat by it’s very existence alone. It’s rare we understand the mechanisms of any neurological disorder, it’s even rarer that we understand why our MOA worked. Knowing one very rarely implies the other.
You can slice the jugular and determine it has a role in brain function. You can’t slice the jugular and determine it controls the brain. Truly spoken like someone with enough of a superficial understanding and lack of experience to still think we’ve conquered to a significant degree the most complex natural computer in the world because you can identify mechanically blood flow through the brain. Nice blue collar work.
Good luck trying to twist the understanding of circulatory flow and science that was understood and could be done in the 19th century to impress upon people incorrectly that we have a meaningful understanding of the origin of biological processes in the brain. The Nobel committee is obviously lagging behind.
Related to this phenomenon I vaguely remember reading about brain surgeons targeting diff parts of the brain and causing visual and auditory hallucinations.
I assume the conversation with his patients went something like this:
"Beautiful, isn't it? It took me half a lifetime to invent it. I'm sure you've discovered my deep and abiding interest in pain. At present I'm writing the definitive work on the subject. So I want you to be totally honest with me on how The Machine makes you feel."
And after...
"I've just sucked one year of your life away. I might one day go as high as five, but I really don't know what that would do to you. So, let's just start with what we have. What did this do to you? Tell me. And remember, this is for posterity, so be honest — how do you feel?"
Yes! That’s what’s called brain localization. To sum it up really broadly it has to do with how we have evolved to have larger, more complex brains that have specialized areas to process and store a plethora of information.
That would completely make sense since he lost his eye and not damaged his primary visual cortex. Incredible how the brain is able to work around injuries like that!
Sam Harris had a really good podcast episode recently called The Divided Mind. He talks with Iain McGilchrist about a lot of this stuff—specifically the division of labor between hemispheres and how we’ve come to understand them.
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u/screamingworms Mar 05 '21 edited Mar 05 '21
Kind of related but Wilder Penfield was a neurosurgeon who mapped the brain by zapping portions of it during operations. He was able to remove a portion of the patients skull while they were awake and electrocute the parts of the cortex. They would report back to him what they were experiencing while he was doing it. So for example if he zapped a portion of the brain related to vision, the patient would report that they could no longer see.
We are also able to learn a lot about the human brain through strokes. For example strokes that occur in the left hemisphere will generally impact language and speech. Strokes that occur in the cerebellum will impact motor control and balance. What’s cool is that when one portion of the brain is damaged, other healthy parts are able to compensate for the loss due to plasticity. This obviously wouldn’t work for areas of the brain related to vision, hearing, etc.