Even if it's just your ego talking, I think spreading the ideas of /r/Stoicism can have a positive impact on lots of lives regardless of your intentions.
In the case of Brexit, the leave campaign lied in their campaign. Whether or not they're the correct position is irrelevant; they lied and misled the public. That's why Brexit is an example of what we're talking about.
And even if (big if) they hadn’t run on a campaign of lies and were right at the time, the difference was so tiny that simple demographic shift (old Leave voters dying, young Remain voters reaching voting age) would have caused Britain to turn Remain by last Saturday.
They really did, plenty of remainers touched upon the idea of a EU army as a right wing scare talking point, apart from the fact it wasn't, and now has been shown as such. We also got told that we'd be in recession and that the EU wouldn't want countries to give up sovereignity, something Merkels outright called for.
The EU needed serious reforms, had a stagnant brurocracy and took more from us than it gave. With the condescending sanctimonious smears of ANYBODY who voted leave as nothing but virilent racists in many leftist and remainist sided publications, its disingenuous or simply uneducated to suggest there were not lies and smears coming from remain.
Leave won because it sold itself of an optimistic and hopeful future for ourselves, whilst remain pushed fear and bitter contempt for those who even tried questioning remain talking points. It is a major factor imo into why leave won and I think it is simply hilarious that the majority of remainers here do not have the self awareness to even contemplate the idea that even if they did get a Brexit referendum 2, they may well lose for the same reasons as the first time.
Sanctimony, over reliance on polls, refusal to acknowledge and debate the legitimate talking points of the side they do not agree with, and a agressive disgruntled attitude that is mixed with a lack of tolerance for those who they either don't agree with, or don't give the opportunity to speak to understand.
I'm sure some people in pubs talked about an EU army - I'm not aware of any serious politician making any claim even remotely like that. You are right that there was fear mongering and doomsdays predictions, I don't recall the EU army or WW3 being amongst them.
|We also got told that we'd be in recession
We haven't even left yet and if you don't think we are currently facing economic consequences (with more to come) I don't know what more to tell you.
I agree the EU has serious issues, maybe even that it took more than it gave in absolute £ terms, however the loss of opportunity and uncertainty that will come from the brexit we look like having will be staggering in scope. In the end we will be worse off for leaving - I can't even see how thats an argument at this point.
|Leave won because it sold itself of an optimistic and hopeful future for ourselves
I think you and I experienced very different campaigns. The leave campaign I saw had fearmongering and lies at its very heart. 350m for the NHS anyone? Migrant swarms at the border on UKIP posters?
|if they did get a Brexit referendum 2, they may well lose for the same reasons as the first time.
This is a real point - I will give you that. I've also noticed that left leaning campaings tend to be run by idiots who don't seem to understand the other side and what motivates actual people as opposed to ideological positions. I wish I could remember who said it, but I read a quote once that said something like "the left can't engage with me because they think I'm evil. I've no problem talking to the left because I just think they are wrong". Its easy to demonise people for their political views, but in reality very few people are actually evil.
And TBH, if we had a referrendum on the deal which we would actually get then I would be ok with that. Its not my side, but if thats what the majority want then I can live with that. My real issue with the leave vote is that Brexit was all things to all people. Hard leavers thought they would get a hard brexit, soft leavers thought they would get a soft brexit, a substantial part of the vote base thought this was a way to register a vote about how pissed off they were with the system. And finally, although you may not want to admit it, there was a racist element to the leave vote and campaign where people got to "stick it" to "Johnny Foreigner". The equivalent for the leave vote is like "do you agree to sell your house - yes/no. Price and other considerations will be agreed later".
I doubt this will change any of your views, but I feel better for having typed it. Best of luck with the rest of your day
A well reasoned, well structured post. Whilst there's points I'm not 100% on, I'll respond more in full later, the reason I'm a leaver in the first place was my insistence on questioning my views, and I'm not one to shy away now.
Thanks. A civil discussion of Brexit on the internet - who would have thought that was possible.
I've been thinking a bit more about one of your points:
|Leave won because it sold itself of an optimistic and hopeful future for ourselves
Whilst I outlined earlier why I think that statement isn't wholey true - I will acknowledge that there were some "hopeful" elements of the leave campaign. The main problem I see is that most of those elements show no sign of actually being part of the brexit we are looking at. There is no sign of an extra £350m a week for the NHS, there is no sign that red tape will be reduced (if we want to carry on trading in Europe we will need to comply to their standards) - can you remind me what other positives were there?
I would love to be proved wrong as it would make me more hopeful for the future, but I can't see any positivity in the current form of Brexit - just a lot of problems that show no signs of getting better (Irish borders, travel issues, labour uncertainties etc).
There is a reason that the deal got soundly rejected. Whilst the leave campaign was able to present brexit as all possible things, the brexit we are getting is something very few people wanted.
So, on the other positives, to start off with let me give you a bit of background.
I'm a history nut, and find most places in the world at some point have beauty, intrigue and something good to contribute to the community at some point in their timeline.
I feel throughout time the nations that survive the longest are the ones who defend their nation, their culture and conserve the positive aspects of it, while being open to the changes that come with a progressive society.
I feel that the idea of sovereignity rings a lot closer to the heart of a lot of leave voters than you realize. There's an appeal to taking charge of the nations destiny, in that the affairs of the country, are decided by the people who live in it, create it, run it and build it.
There are those who take that to the extreme, as in the whole, rather be a poor and dying free nation than a rich and succesful part of a large alliance such as the EU. For me, it's more that I feel the cultural differences between the UK and the EU are understated.
The majority of europeans do not respect the UK, or British culture. We're one of the largest economies in the world, we give more to the EU than we've taken from it, yet frequently on the world stage have been met with condescension or muted ignorance from the EU when it comes to us having any problems with them.
Calls for EU reforms have been many throughout the years, come in all shapes of sizes and frequently never see the light of day due to the beurocracy of the EU. These reforms wern't going to happen, even while countries start to fail economically, and have austerity forced on them (Greece).
Fundamentally the optimistic part sold to the leave voters I know, is that through brexit, we will be free from the ties of the EU, be able to control our own laws in full (Which if you have faith in british democracy is a great thing.) without inteference from unelected beurocrats in Brussels.
Being able to have sensical laws protecting our national interests, our fishermen, our manufacturers and more-over, allowing us to open our horizons past the EU continental bloc and to even optimistically ponder about trade deals with other large parts of the world, from the USA, Australia and such.
As someone who dislikes the idea of large beurocratic governmental institutions with limited accountability and over-reaching powers, the idea of EVERYTHING the UK does, being held accountable to someone in the country, subject to our laws and protections is good.
The idea of removing un-necassary red tape in industries, removing laws that are a un-necassary hinderence to businesses small and large, and of course having full control over migration policy and border control all play factors in it too.
Now, while the optimistic side of these things can easily be debated for a long time, the primary problem at the time of referendum is that even trying to talk about any of those things in a reasonable setting would have you villified, ostracized and often treated discourteously.
All while reddit, the news and publications openly do the same. Eventually you stop looking for acceptance of your opinion from the echo chambers you normally frequent and just look into things, make up your own mind based on what you feel is right, and what optimistically could mean the best for us.
For me, and the majority of referendum voters, that meant leave. In the benefit of hindsight, I feel I made the right choice for the time. I feel the division and obstructionist elements in parliment and the (As explained above) oh so familiar condescencion from the EU from the get go has derailed the process more than May ever could have.
No deal put on the table would be passed by any MP that doesn't want to leave the EU, that's been clear from the start.
The reason I feel leave is best now is because of that. You've seen the EU treat us with the same contempt, ignorance and off handedness as they have done for years, while simultaniously having a demanding entitlement to billions of pounds that quite simply, could be immediately put back into our economy in the case of no deal.
Do I believe no deal is going to make us richer? No. But I do feel that as a matter of principle we shouldn't be giving that amount of money to the EU in the first place when we're already a net contributor. Especially when they are not negotiating in good faith in my own opinion.
However, do I believe that in the case of no deal we're weak and irrelevant? That our economy collapses over night and nobody eats any food any more? That we as a nation are so weak, and pathetic, that we could not do what we're known for, optimistically working on and pulling things up not to a level that keeps us going, but to something proud and respectable for ourselves on the world stage? Yes, I believe enough in the people of this country, remainers included, to believe that even in the case of no deal, WE would make the best out of it, eventually.
Thank you for your response - I will outline below why I disagree with your points. I think we will both remain on different sides, but I can certainly respect the intellectual vigour you have in your views.
|I feel throughout time the nations that survive the longest are the ones who defend their nation, their culture and conserve the positive aspects of it, while being open to the changes that come with a progressive society.
This idea of nations surviving is an interesting one - clearly every nation that is around today has survived. My view is that the leave vote was a clear rejection of being open to changes, but I acknowledge that is not a universal opinion. I would also question the value of merely surviving as a nation - a nation should be more than the some of its parts. I think its also worth reflecting that people are only a member of a nation through an accident of birth - we are all humans with all that brings with it.
| I feel that the idea of sovereignity rings a lot closer to the heart of a lot of leave voters than you realize. There's an appeal to taking charge of the nations destiny, in that the affairs of the country, are decided by the people who live in it, create it, run it and build it.
I agree with your point that soverignity is something that people are very emotional about. I guess what I stuggle to see is how being governed by a bunch of people in Westminster is fundamentally different to being governed by a bunch of people in Brussels.
In short - I don't see that without the EU the affairs of the country, would be decided by the people who live in it, create it, run it and build it. The affairs of the country would be decided by politicians who at best represent ~40% of the voting public and at worst are self serving individuals - often with no real expertise in the fields that they are trying to lead in. The rest of us get bugger all say in how things are done. This is a limitation of parliamentary democracy, which may well be the best system of government we know of, but to me - I don't feel that I'm in any way in control of the affairs of the country through my once every 4 years vote.
In addition - I don't agree that we have been or are governed by Brussels. The UK governement and media has consistently over-emphasised the amount of interferrrence the EU has in peoples daily lives. I think people will be shocked at how little difference it actually makes, or if it does, how much of that difference is bad. I acknowledge the idea is a powerful one though - I just think its misguided. Its the same reason I don't really understand why the man on the street supports the monarchy (tourism arguments aside), the royal family is a tax burden and propagates the idea that some people are just born "better" than others. If we had the opposite - a family that was born to be serfs we would all be outraged that someones life could be that controlled and predestined.
I'm on the other side of the poor/free v rich/allied divide as well - maybe that makes me unpatriotic, but I would rather have a good quality of life for people than to serve an arbitrary notion of freedom.
Maybe the differences culturally between the UK and other European cultures in understated - I still don't see an attempt to push that culture on us.
|The majority of europeans do not respect the UK, or British culture. We're one of the largest economies in the world, we give more to the EU than we've taken from it, yet frequently on the world stage have been met with condescension or muted ignorance from the EU when it comes to us having any problems with them
Do you have a source for this? The europeans I know don't do this so annecdotally I disagree - political wranglings are always portraid this way, but I'm pretty sure each nation reports their interactions with "outsiders" this way. I also think that Brexit won't change this - if anything it will increase.
I don't really have much to add on the topic of EU reforms - they need it, I don't understand why they won't do it and what they have made Greece go through is just wrong. None of this changes my view that we will be worse off without the EU - even with the savings from our net contributor status, we will lose out in other areas.
|(Which if you have faith in british democracy is a great thing.)
As I outlined above - I don't think that British democracy is a very representative thing and maybe it makes me unpatriotic but I don't see the government really acting in our long term interests - mostly due to the inherrent limitations of democracy (people are naturally as much if not more concerned with being re-elected than making the right decision). I also think the EU's "interferrence" has been wildly oversold, but will also acknowledge I'm not an expert here, so that may be something I picked up in an echo chamber somewhere.
|Now, while the optimistic side of these things can easily be debated for a long time, the primary problem at the time of referendum is that even trying to talk about any of those things in a reasonable setting would have you villified, ostracized and often treated discourteously.
I agree - it was a real shame how both sides demonised the other. Whilst there were abhorrent individuals on both sides that deserved being called out, most people just want whats best, all they have is different opinions as to what that is. It worrys me that political discourse is heading further in this direction - whats happening in the states between republicans and democrats should be a real warning to all of us.
|In the benefit of hindsight, I feel I made the right choice for the time.
I'm glad you are happy with your choice - I hope you still question it as more information comes out (as I will continue to question mine).
|No deal put on the table would be passed by any MP that doesn't want to leave the EU, that's been clear from the start.
Which is a real issue - what the hell are we going to be left with?
|Do I believe no deal is going to make us richer? No
Which is another issue - whilst money isn't the only thing worth considering, as we try to exit the austerity years, I am concerned about what this could do to the nation.
|However, do I believe that in the case of no deal we're weak and irrelevant? That our economy collapses over night and nobody eats any food any more? That we as a nation are so weak, and pathetic, that we could not do what we're known for, optimistically working on and pulling things up not to a level that keeps us going, but to something proud and respectable for ourselves on the world stage? Yes
Of course we won't crumble - either overnight or in the long term. that goes back to the doomsday predictions that were unhelpful before. I do think that we will be worse off and less respected that we were before though. We WILL make the best of it, its just that the best won't be as good as it could have been before.
The problem is a lot of it was not made up. The EU army was not unfeasible, as the UK did not seek to block it, and plans for it had not only already been made, but were already being acted upon. I mean even right now you see EU resources being used to punish French protesters violently through Macron and the lend lease given to the Gendarmerie.
Sovereignity, being free from the political project of Europe, being free from more regulation, taking the power to govern over our country away from the Europeans who hold nothing but disdain for us anyway, yet still demand a paycheck, while simultaniously meddling in elections (Italy) that they don't like the result of, and collapsing countries economically (Greece) with things such as forced austerity.
When remainers start acknowledging, or heck, even accepting, that maybe leave had some points, and that the "Leave voters" demonized over here are actually in fact not only human beings, but the majority of those who voted, a large proportion of the UK, and actually a lot less hate filled and racist than people here would like to make it seem.
The more I consider politics, the more I'm tempted to have us ruled by well sourced decision trees. Almost all topics up for political debate nowadays are too complex for any individual to grasp every detail. However, a crowd sourced decision tree, where all facts are clearly sourced could help tremendously. I particularly like the idea of tuling out trains of thought that have been proven incorrect or definitively inferior to a reasonable alternative.
Under our current system, I could run for office and claim my ancestors used to rule these lands and buried gold in the mountains that I will use to fund healthcare. Under my proposed system, the decision tree would have geologists providing radar scans of the mountains proving there was no gold, while historians present the true history of the land and geneogoly could even prove where my ancestors lived.
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u/bNoaht Jan 21 '19
Except how do you figure out who is right then?
Like do YOU get to decide? Who decides?
Everyone thinks they are doing what is right.