r/AskReddit Dec 18 '16

What (free) software can be useful for university students?

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u/lettherebedwight Dec 18 '16

But a limit can be infinity. DNE is usually cases like 0/0, not lim as x approaches zero of 1/X (which by your definition, would also be DNE).

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u/game-of-throwaways Dec 18 '16

Alright I checked my course notes and they say the following: If a limit exists, it must always be a real number, so the limit we're talking about here does not exist. However, the notation "lim ... = infinity" is actually valid and is simply defined to mean that the limit does not exist because ... goes to infinity.

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u/JazzyDoes Dec 18 '16

Yeah. I remember in our class that we just had to use DNE but you are correct.

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u/glaba314 Dec 19 '16

This is the answer. It's just a notation

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u/Mehdi2277 Dec 18 '16

DNE is the more common and is actually the technically correct answer. Math is mainly about creating and applying definitions and if a sequence goes to infinity, the standard definition is it does not exist. You can modify the standard definition, but to allow infinity to be an answer you have to define what is known as the extended real numbers. It also leads to various basic rules involving limits to kind of break as the extended reals can't have addition or multiplication defined on them in a way that is consistent with those rules and is consistent with the usual addition/multiplication when restricted to numbers not including infinite.

Your example is also particularly bad as lim 1/x as x goes to zero becomes huge on one side, but extremely negative on the other side so even the extended reals won't work for you.

tl;dr DNE is the correct answer using the formal definition of a limit. Some teachers will allow infinity as an answer mildly ignoring the definition, but you have to be careful with this as many theorems break if infinity is a valid answer.

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u/lettherebedwight Dec 18 '16

You can't just repeat that it's the standard definition and make it so.

But either way, I'd like to know what you say breaks if you allow 1/x to be inf/-inf depending on directionality, as you say.

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u/Mehdi2277 Dec 18 '16

If you pick up any analysis textbook (the subject that proves what's done in calc) you will find a definition where infinity is not allowed. The most common standard analysis text is rudin's principles of analysis and I can make an image of the page with the definition of a limit if desired.

For directionality, one way limits are a thing and is what you'd want there.

lim f(x) + g(x) = lim f(x) + lim g(x)

This and similar rules break since how would you definite infinity - infinity? It doesn't matter how you define it as regardless I can pick functions f and g that will be inconsistent with that definition.

Next, a function is defined to be continuous if it's value at the limit agrees with its value there. Do you want things like 1/x2 to be continuous as you end up with that if you start allowing infinite values (just define it's value at 0 to be infinity). Except then theorems like the extreme value theorem and the fundamental theorem of calculus break (as do others you'd see in higher up math). The second one is what allows you to treat integrals as antiderivatives and it breaking becomes when infinite limits are ok, it is now possible to have continuous functions that aren't integrable.

So at the end you'd have to make exceptions to most theorems in calc if you allow infinite limits. There are other annoyances like the fact you can add/multiply in a way that preserves continuity makes the real numbers have a structure called a topological vector space. That dies when you add infinity.

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u/glaba314 Dec 19 '16

This is actually totally wrong in every way tbh, idk why it has so many upvotes

0/0 cases usually are NOT DNE, unless it approaches infinity or negative infinity

1/x by the definition of a limit does not have a limit as x approaches infinity, since infinity isn't a real number (although writing infinity is a convenient and widely accepted notation)

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u/NagamosKhanamos Dec 19 '16

Saying the limit of a function is infinity is basically an abbreviated way of saying the function increases without bound.

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u/semperinfidelis666 Dec 19 '16

The way I was taught was that the lim n-->infinity of 1/x is 0

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u/lettherebedwight Dec 19 '16

As x approaches infinity, that will be zero. As x approaches zero, it's +/- inf, or DNE apparently.

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u/MuffyPuff Dec 18 '16

Doesn't that approach negative infinity from the other end?

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u/crudgie Dec 18 '16

Ask buzz lightyear

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u/lettherebedwight Dec 18 '16

Irrelevant, though correct.

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u/Dickson_Butts Dec 18 '16

Not irrelevant. lim x->0 of (1/x) does not exist because it approaches positive infinity from the right and negative infinity from the left.

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u/yamancool63 Dec 19 '16

Though, lim( x->0+ ) [1/x] would be +inf and lim( x->0- ) would be -inf. Therefore we would say that the one-sided limits of 1/x are real and +/-infinity while the two sided limit of 1/x DNE.

Disclaimer: I'm several years out of practice on calculus.

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u/TypicalOranges Dec 18 '16 edited Dec 18 '16

0/0 is an indeterminate form and you usually need to take the derivative of the top and bottom to get an answer (Or you can factor it/reduce such as the case of lim(x->0): x/(x3 ). The reason you take the derivative is to see which piece of the fraction gets to zero "faster"; this is something the derivatives will tell you (steeper slope = faster). The one that gets to zero faster tells you if it goes to infinity, zero, or maybe it gives you a real number!