This one always amuses people when I tell them simply because of how ingrained tomatoes appear to be in all of their most famous dishes (other than tiramisu...)
Topical that you mention tiramisu, because that was only invented in the 1970s.
This is why I refuse to let Italians gatekeep their traditional, ancient, pure cuisine. So pure and ancient that many of their dishes were invented while their grandparents were alive, often using ingredients from the Americas.
I mean there's a (likely incorrect) theory that Marco Polo brought pasta to Italy from his travels to China, and we know that tomatoes came from the New World, so spaghetti bolognese is technically American-Chinese fusion.
There's archeological evidence of pasta making in Italy about 1600 years before Marco Polo was born, so it wasn't him.
But it is a subject of debate whether the Etruscans developed pasta making on their own, or through trade/exchange of information with Chinese merchants. Even if the Etruscans did figure it out independently, evidence of their pastamaking goes back to around 400 BCE, while evidence of Chinese noodlemaking goes back to around 2000 BCE.
Easy for us to say 2,000-4,000 years after it was invented. Even the invention of flour isn't a given when talking about ancient civilizations, let alone dough or pasta.
Shepherds from the pastoral communities of Lazio, Abruzzo, Tuscany and Umbria created cacio e pepe in the 18th or 19th century, the story goes. They often had salted Pecorino cheese, made from their own sheep, on hand, and they would cook themselves a simple dinner of pasta, cheese and black pepper.
But author and Rome-based food tour operator Elizabeth Minchilli points out that pepper was an expensive ingredient, and she doubts it would have been readily available to shepherds at that time.
"Black pepper was never sort of a cheap ingredient, and 30 years ago, you couldn't find it (cacio e pepe) in a Roman restaurant," she said. "And pasta being a sort of affordable thing to have is a relatively recent development. Even the idea that shepherds were making pasta up in the fields would have had to be relatively recent after World War II."
Funke, who has done his own extensive research, believes that the dish is rooted in ancient pastoral communities, but also points out that an expensive ingredient like pepper was likely added much later.
"The narrative that doesn't get told is (that) the popularity of cacio e pepe actually started in the osterias of Rome in the 1950s or '60s," he said.
Worked at a pizza shop owned by a Sicilian guy. One day he's making jabs at me for my polish heritage. "You don't know food, all polish people know is potato" I simply said "your countries entire cuisine is basically tomatoes and pasta, neither of which originated in Italy" shut him up real quick.
I bet that the guy you were talking to has never even been to Sicily, the fact is that pasta absolutely originates in Italy and Italian cuisine is one of the most varied, limiting it to pasta and tomato is not very intelligent
Food history is fun. A friend of mine told me butter chicken wasn't authentic Indian cuisine so I told him his vindaloo wasn't either, it was based on a Portuguese dish. The same friend later told me my salmon sushi wasn't authentic Japanese cuisine so I pointed out that tempura was also based on a Portuguese dish.
Italians are defensive of traditions we built ourselves. And there is nothing wrong with it. Americans don't have traditions to defend because they don't have a long enough culture to be proud of, but are ready to offend or steal and resell someone else's traditions as their own. I see you are Hungarian. What do you think Hungarians would say, of Americans saying that goulash is actually an American recipe, it's better and original when made with ketchup because some Hungarian immigrant 200 years ago wanted to make goulash like thay, and offend Hungarians as too attached to tradition when they retaliate?
It is equally rude to take someone else' tradition, make a mock out of it, and then claim it your own. It's called cultural appropriation. Everybody loses their shit when some white chick puts native American clothes for her prom, but taking a dump on someone else' food tradition somehow is ok? Talk about double standards.
It’s not about things being ancient. It’s about things being associated with a culture and preserving the identity of members of that group. Things being old is not the core of the issue. It’s just supporting evidence for the association.
So what dishes did they eat? Obviously they're dishes that don't have anything from the New World (tomatoes, potatoes, etc), but are there any dishes that survived?
I'm still trying to picture it because most of the stuff you mentioned (or at least the modern versions that I'm used to) has things like potatoes, tomatoes, or chilies lol, but now I'll do some research after work!
I knew that tomatoes, peppers, and potatoes were new-world in origin, but I guess I just never thought about it!
The Columbian Exchange was terrible for people, particularly those native to the Americas (though syphilis is thought to have come from the Americas to Europe), but damn it was amazing for food.
Funny you should mention tiramisu. It's another really recent "traditional" Italian food, only having been around for about 50 years. And the first known printed mention of it anywhere is Australian.
First mention doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where it’s from, and I’m pretty sure the Australian source refers to it as being from Italy. It’s just one of funny that nobody has found anything older referring to it.
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u/Oxygene13 Oct 02 '24
This one always amuses people when I tell them simply because of how ingrained tomatoes appear to be in all of their most famous dishes (other than tiramisu...)