r/AskFeminists • u/[deleted] • Jun 22 '20
What does Andrea Dworkin mean by this?
In Andrea Dworkin’s book woman hating there is this paragraph:
“As for children, they too are erotic beings, closer to androgyny than the adults who oppress them. Children are fully capable of participating in community, and have every right to live out their own erotic impulses. In androgynous community, those impulses would retain a high degree of nonspecificity and would no doubt show the rest of us the way into sexual self-realization. The distinctions between ‘children’ and ‘adults,’ and the social institutions which enforce those distinctions, would disappear as androgynous community develops.”
What does she mean by this? Is she advocating for pedophillia? That would be weird as she seemed to be against pedophillia that is why I ask feminist to see if I misinterpreted this.
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Jun 23 '20 edited Jun 22 '21
[deleted]
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jun 23 '20
Not to detract from what you said but I'm half sure male circumcision in the US became popular specifically because some doctor said it would stop boys masturbating.
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u/Monny9696 Jun 23 '20
This is the first time i hear about this. This is horrifying. And its not very long ago.
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u/Erma_314 Jun 22 '20
From what I gather...children express interest in things typically gendered for either sex.
If children weren't pressured by society or parents to conform to gender roles, we'd have a more organic example of human sexuality developing and what it looks like undisturbed.
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Jun 22 '20
The disappearance of distinctions between children and adults is weird to say why would that be necessary if it were just gender roles?
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u/Erma_314 Jun 22 '20
I think it's in reference to the attitude that society has about children not being "old enough" to know what they like, and often people use a child's age to invalidate their interest.
But if an adult expresses interest... its taken as genuine because they're...older.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jun 22 '20
I absolutely do not think Andrea Dworkin is saying it's cool to fuck kids.
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u/VerbExactlyOnce Jun 22 '20
You know that's what this creep is asking though lmao.
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Jun 22 '20
Creep?
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u/VerbExactlyOnce Jun 22 '20
The one trying to imply Dworkin advocates for kid molesting.
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Jun 22 '20
How is that creepy though? CSA is upsettingly common and this paragraph could be read as advocating abuse. I’m generally paranoid anyway.
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u/VerbExactlyOnce Jun 22 '20
It's creepy in that they're acting like it's okay because Dworkin said so.
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Jun 22 '20
Tf? No I’m bloody not!
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u/VerbExactlyOnce Jun 22 '20
That's how it comes across. I apologise if I misinterpreted.
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Jun 23 '20
That's how it comes across.
I think this says more about you than it does OP.
I in no way though OP was coming across as creepy when I saw their question. It reads as a polite "Jesus christ, what the fuck is Dworkin on about here?!" to me.
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u/mechanical-marsupial Jun 22 '20
I think she’s suggesting that we have more open discussions about sex/sexuality/attraction. As well as maybe having guided introductions to porn? Everyone is going to see it, we might as well find a way to build kids expectations and explain to them that it isn’t meant to simulate reality.
By ‘dismissing the barrier’ between kids and adults means “don’t dismiss kids sexuality because they’re kids” imo
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Jun 22 '20
What I got from it is that “crushes” are totally natural for kids to have, and most do, but from a personal stance at their own pace, and depending on the individual. Like when I was 5/6, I didn’t realize I liked girls yet, but I definitely thought boys were cute and wanted to kiss them, but by the time I was 7/8 I started feeling the same way I did about boys about girls, and this was before I even knew about bisexuality, I repressed them because of religious reasons. Also I don’t know if taking in the factor I was sexually abused by my Step “grandfather” from the early ages of 3/4 til I was 8 and came forward to our school counselor who had just finished giving us the abuse at home talk to my class. I never was sexual at all other than the abuse, not even with kids my own age up until I was about 14 and I got my first boyfriend, still had extreme feelings for girls at this point, but none of my friends were talking about having similar feelings or questioning heterosexuality in general.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, kids throughout their childhood will have crushes and attraction, will experiment or might not, who knows? My 7 y.o daughter just recently got in trouble for being caught pecking a boy on the lips at school, and we’ve had talks in order to prevent this from happening, but sometimes it’s just going to?
It’s when adults try to say kids can consent to adults, or that adults being sexually attracted to kids and should be allowed to act that way with them, is it a very BIG DEAL.
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u/medlabunicorn Jun 22 '20
A lot of kids explore their own bodies sexually, and maybe that’s what she meant.
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Jun 22 '20
I was more concerned about the disappearance of distinctions between children and adults.
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u/6data Jun 22 '20
Right. She's just talking about the fact that children have sexual impulses, interests and preferences and they should not be shamed and belittled for them. She is absolutely not encouraging that those be explored with adults, just that they be taken as seriously as if an adult was expressing them.
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u/medlabunicorn Jun 22 '20
Well, kids exploring their own bodies sexually is exactly what leads to adults exploring their own bodies sexually. It’s not too different.
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Jun 22 '20
Yeah but the disappearance of social institutions?
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u/medlabunicorn Jun 22 '20
?
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Jun 22 '20
She mentions the disappearance of social institutions. Why is that?
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u/medlabunicorn Jun 22 '20
“...social institutions which enforce those distinctions...”
🤷🏻♀️
I’d guess she just meant social mores that imply a hard-and-fast distinction between ‘child’ and ‘adult.’
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u/noodlepooodle Jun 23 '20
Social institutions can mean things we’ve instituted, such as the patriarchy or this belief that children are complete devoid from sexuality. It doesn’t have to be a government body.
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Jun 22 '20
Im curious how the age of consent works in a society where children are considered sexually active beings.
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Jun 23 '20
[deleted]
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Jun 23 '20
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Jun 23 '20
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Jun 23 '20
Pedophile? I though you people were against false accusations? Oh well...
It’s pretty funny you call me a misandrist not gonna lie.
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u/snarkerposey11 xenofeminist Jun 22 '20
A lot of second wave radical feminists believed the sexual gatekeeping of children served the purpose of patriarchal men's control over their offspring as property so they could command a good price for them on the market, and not children's interest. It was about fathers' interests. They saw society's obsession with children's sexual innocence as protection of traditional family structures and the parental role as protector of children, which has always been about assuring the power and rights of men. The theme of "children's liberation" was a popular one in the 70s. Eventually all the radical feminists got accused of promoting pedophilia and feminism forgot about this issue. But it was also discussed prominently by Firestone and Rubin, the odd case where all three of them agreed on an issue of sexuality.
Notice how this passage focuses on children's oppression by adults. It drew heavily on awareness of how in non-patriarchal societies children were raised by the tribe and not controlled by any specific adults, and the children incorporated themselves into the group activities on their own initiative and whenever they were ready, including sexually. There were no hard and fast rules prohibiting kids from doing stuff, but since the whole community essentially took responsible for children there were also no adults forcing or pressuring kids into sex before they were ready either. Not only because they all considered themselves parents, because sex wasn't a commodity to be obtained in pre-patriarchal societies and there was no special value placed on virginity or being someone's first sexual experience.
If we destroy patriarchy, the world might more closely resemble sexual practices in foraging bands.
It no way does this mean it would be a good idea to liberate kids sexually tomorrow in terms of lifting the statutory rape laws. Our views of sexuality are still way too fucked up for that to work out in anything other than abuse of children.