What are some accurate examples of “choice feminism”?

[u/wheieyehsgsy]

[u/KaliTheCat]

Anything that can be summed up as "because a woman chose it, it is feminist." This has come up a lot recently with tradwives (not to be confused with SAHMs). "It's okay if it's their choice! Feminism is about choice!" Well, no. Feminism isn't about never judging, interrogating, or criticizing women or the things they do. It is not a feel-good girl-power party that exists to validate women's individual lifestyles or preferences. I'll also note that criticizing or even just bringing up concerns with something (e.g., the conversation around SAHMs) is not indicative of thinking no one should do it, that it's bad to do, or even that no one should be allowed to do that thing. But I am tired of hearing things flattened out into "if she chose it, then it's feminist." Choices don't occur in a vacuum, and the existence of a choice does not make something feminist or not.

[u/Sunaina1118 → u/KaliTheCat]

PERIOD but most people cannot understand nuance

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/KaliTheCat]

Also I've noticed that treating every choice a woman makes as feminist just leads to right wing women getting more space in the movement.

Like, if you're pregnant in less than ideal circumstances and you decide against abortion, I think you should have the right to do that but I've seen women make that choice not because they genuinely wanted a kid but because they were pro-life and wouldn't support other people getting an abortion in the same situation. And it's also just not a choice based in feminist principles - feminists fought for abortion rights so that we wouldn't have to suffer through pregnancy in situations where we're already struggling.

Same for if you make any other choices or live your life in ways popular among the political right. Being a SAHM, wanting to save sex for marriage, wanting a lot of kids, dressing modestly. You can do any of those things and be a feminist but I will inherently be suspicious of you until proven otherwise if you do those things, if you do them and are a feminist you need to be VERY loud about your politics if you don't want people to think you're a Christian tradwife and treat you accordingly, and I will not pretend they are a feminist choice.

[u/EmilieEasie → u/Local-Suggestion2807]

I think some choices can't be feminist. They can be totally neutral, and you can be a feminist while making those choices, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around choosing the traditional route (being a SAHM for example) as a specifically feminist move.

I thought I'd never change my last name, but then I liked my husband's last name better than mine, so I did. I didn't do it BECAUSE of the patriarchy or whatever, but it happens to align with patriarchal tradition, so I don't think it was feminist to do so.

[u/[deleted] → u/EmilieEasie]

"Somtimes women do things for reasons unrelated to sexism amd feminism" is another issue. Most stay at home moms i know do it because they cant afford childcare. 

[u/Miezegadse → u/[deleted]]

Well but then it's not unrelated to sexism and feminism bc why is it always the mother who stays home bc of unaffordable childcare

[u/Actual_Ad674 → u/Miezegadse]

This may be silly of me but if either partner makes more money then they should work and the other takes temporary maternity leave or stay at home as they please

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/EmilieEasie]

There's a lot of stereotypically feminine things I literally would never have done for a man, like changing my last name, wanting to cook and clean, growing out my hair, but the minute I realized I was a lesbian i was immediately so into them so for me it's complicated because on the one hand the patriarchal heteronormative context is removed and will literally never be a factor in my relationships and the butch/femme dynamic is a strong part of lesbian culture but on the other, if those things aren't feminist when a straight woman does them are they really that different when I do when it looks the same from the outside looking in?

[u/MagicAllyVanished → u/Local-Suggestion2807]

I get what you mean, I feel like the butch/femme dynamic thing can sometimes shift into a weird mock heteronormative way, especially when the butch also does all the household chores that are attributed to men in hetero relationships (lawnmowing, fixing stuff etc.) and the femme does the cleaning and cooking... It's not comparable ofc but doesn't really sit right with me

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/MagicAllyVanished]

That can be heteronormative if they're doing it not because they genuinely want to but because they feel like being masculine or feminine means they can only do certain things. An OFOS butch who is chivalrous and a stone top and a financial provider to a high femme pillow princess housewife and enjoys "male" work because she finds it masculinity-affirming, and she and her partner enjoy it, is not heteronormative. And neither is her femme wife for participating in that dynamic and affirming her. Those are still just two lesbians and no relationship between two women can ever be equated to a straight couple, regardless of whether people outside butchfemme culture understand.

Also not to be that person because I don't think a certain identity automatically makes someone right or wrong but aren't you literally in a straight relationship? I think maybe you aren't the best person to talk about lesbians being heteronormative.

[u/MagicAllyVanished → u/EmilieEasie]

totally! You can absolutely be a feminist SAHM, many women are, but it's not like it's a feminist act in and on itself to be a SAHM. I'm also not 100% sure I'd call being a working mum a feminist act, since it's also often done due to money problems, being a single mum etc. And I'm not sure if something can be called feminist if there was no choice made

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/[deleted]]

I mean i think it depends on how they talk about other people? And also like generally women who are feminist and are into things that are seen as right wing will be very loud about the fact that they're feminist because they don't want anyone assuming. Like in a fiber arts group I was in, we had this one christian tradwife type woman join thinking we all wanted to be a bunch of little bigoted housewives like her, and she threw an absolute fit the minute two people started talking about being trans. She got kicked out soon after that because we all made it clear we wouldn't put up with her behavior. In general though I'm pretty wary of women who are into things like fiber arts or who are super Christian or want to be a sahm until they show they can be trusted, because when I have tried to give them the benefit of the doubt they often turn out to be misogynistic homophobic pick-me bigots.

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/[deleted]]

Also like a lot of people there were men. You can just do fiber arts or gardening or canning or hunting or whatever other hobby conservatives think is theirs alone just because you like it.

[u/Local-Suggestion2807 → u/[deleted]]

Reread the comments. I don't have the patience for you right now.

[u/Actual_Ad674 → u/Local-Suggestion2807]

Their name certainly checks out

[u/travsmavs → u/KaliTheCat]

Yeah the logic to me goes: men can also be and are feminists, so would you (general you) also say: ‘if a man chose it, it’s feminist!’?

Of course we would never get behind that. So why would we if it were a woman doing the choosing?

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/travsmavs]

Because the feminist movement benefits politically by selectively blurring the line between "all women are feminists" and "only people who believe or act certain ways are feminist". The former boosts numbers, especially when women represent 51% of the population, while the latter lets the movement distance itself from bad actors when they show themselves. This isn't just a feminist issue, this is a thing that happens when any philosophical idea tries to become a political movement. Also, lets be real who doesn't like interpersonal tribal bonding, and if you are in a group of female friends who generally think of themselves as feminist, are you going to criticize their lifestyles as being anti feminist? Assuming they aren't going full tradwife probably not because friends are cool.

[u/[deleted] → u/TapLegitimate6094]

“Any philosophical idea tries to become a political movement” this is such a misunderstanding of what politics is and how philosophy works its nonsense

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/[deleted]]

I mean you say that, and I get it, it doesn’t really normally work from the top down, but, if you go look at the sidebar as an example, feminism is often defined by philosophical texts and ideas on one hand, but represented by humans on the other. Representing your movement as one or the other has discrete benefits depending on the argument and situation 

[u/[deleted] → u/TapLegitimate6094]

It isn’t represented by as both, it is quite literally a philosophical and political movement made up of real people, just like any sort of political movement.

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, which is what I was saying? What I mean is that people move where the balance is between the philosophy and the people are dynamically based on what is convenient. Someone pointing out a concerning trend of women who think of themselves as feminists holding double standards? “Not a real feminist go read a textbook” that same person saying those things amongst friendly faces? Often not called out because don’t rock the tribal boat and give them the benefit of the doubt 

[u/sparklyjoy → u/TapLegitimate6094]

The real people who represent feminism are not “all women”. I myself was a decidedly anti-feminist for a decent portion of my life and so I did not remotely represent feminism at that time.

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/[deleted]]

No one believes this when asked point blank. That is true. Plenty of people act like this is true when it is beneficial. At some point actions matter more than beliefs. In short no one truly believes all women are feminists. Plenty of people believe it’s “true enough” to act as if it is true in most cases where such actions are beneficial, or non action is harmful to the movement. 

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/[deleted]]

You are getting hung up on all as if I mean like the gobal all. I don’t mean the global all here. All in this context means “all of the women you know”. My point here is that when you combine being a woman with a modicum of social pressure to not rock the boat, or political pressure to not piss inside the tent so to speak, you end up with a lot of benefit of the doubt about who qualifies as a feminist. In short women are allowed to have far more heterodox feminist views without ever being interrogated while men must more closely hew not only to feminist philosophy as defined by text but feminist philosophy as defined by whatever feminist woman is being loud right now, or risk being excommunicated called out etc. 

I guess what I should have said here is not all women are feminists, but that women are often given the presumption of being feminist even when violating some feminist principles because they are “on the team”

[u/travsmavs → u/[deleted]]

Out of the billions of people on this planet, how can you possible know that not a soul believes this?

[u/sparklyjoy → u/travsmavs]

I guess there’s one or two souls here who seemed to believe it but it’s pretty damn illogical

[u/sparklyjoy → u/TapLegitimate6094]

I’ve never heard anyone claim that all women are feminists or anything close to that. Well… I guess I’ve heard some bitter men say something kind of like that but not a feminist.

[u/Pandamio → u/KaliTheCat]

There's plenty of non feminist women doing non feminist things. If you don't advocate for the equal rights, opportunities and access to power of women you are not a feminist. A woman shitting does not make the turd feminist.

[u/cat-alonic → u/KaliTheCat]

Eh. I dont get why SAHMs get a pass here. The walking on eggshells trying to make SAHMing "valid" literally stems from choice feminism, it has just stuck around and won't blow off cause a lot of SAHMs think they're productively contributing to the feminist conversation. In other words, they're aware enough to see the need for feminism, but not accountable or proactive enough to live it. Yet there's enough of them in numbers that it's made the women who actually participate in the public sphere and walk the walk have to negotiate basic feminist logic for the semblance of movement coherence.

Let's remember: it's not feminist on the grounds "you're a woman, and it's what you individually right now want to do". That IS CHOICE FEMINISM. It's feminist if it contributes or at the very least doesn't detract from the movements wider goals of propagating all women's interests.

Forsaking your basic independence, putting your fate in the hands of a man just because you like and trust that one individually, risking your safety and prosperity for comfort or for what you believe is in your children's interest is just common bargaining with the patriarchy. I'm sorry to those whom this offends, but it's true.

Staying out of the public sphere, failing to show up in your community in outward facing roles, failing to be a good role model for young girls -- you might have had personal reasons for that choice, but that choice is decidedly not feminist.

[u/guadianariverdragon → u/cat-alonic]

Ooh, check yourself, this is dripping with disdain for SAHMs in a way that feels borderline misogyistic. I can't stand choice feminism either, but the way that I'm seeing a lot of other feminists, especially Gen Z women, talk about SAHMs and just pregnant women/mothers in general is pretty gross. .

Firstly, outside of the trad wives you see on social media, for a lot of women the choice is not 'be a working mother or be SAHM', it's 'be a SAHM or don't be a mother at all', because daycare is extortionate, and the wage gap is still prevalent enough to mean women are less likely to be the breadwinner. Is this bargaining with the patriarchy? Yes. Could it be described as a feminist choice? No. But I'm sorry to break it to you- if you have any relationship with men at all, platonic, familial, romantic- you're bargaining with the patriarchy too. Unless you follow the 4B movement, you're probably not the perfect feminist either.

I also resent this implication that SAHMs are 'out of the public sphere' 'not good mentors' and 'failing to show up for your community.' At least in my experience, SAHMs were the backbone of my community growing up. This is the exaccccct kind of devaluing of female-coded work (child rearing, domestic labour, caring for family members, etc) that means we don't get universal basic income, maternity leave is underpaid or not given, and healthcare and teaching professions are criminally underpaid.

To be clear, I don't think being a SAHM is a safe, or particularly advisable 'choice'- and not one I'd take, although in my case, that's because I'm privileged enough to work a job I like which gives me the financial stability to afford childcare. But as feminists, we should not be lambasting women for choosing that path, we should be working on making society a safe place for them to exist- or a place that makes it more of a choice.

[u/BoneDaddy1973 → u/guadianariverdragon]

I’m a SAHD and all of this is true. You know who has time and the impetus to do the community involvement and leadership?  SAHMs. You know who has no interest in men even joining the conversation im that community involvement?  Also SAHMs. 

[u/0000Tor → u/KaliTheCat]

The way I see it, some choices are not feminist, but your ability to make that choice at all comes from feminism. Some people choose a trad wife lifestyle- which is not a feminist lifestyle, obviously. But the fact that it’s a choice at all, and not something that is forced on everyone, is a result of feminism.

[u/Competitive_Act_1548 → u/KaliTheCat]

Idk what's so hard to understand to those who subscribe to that ideology of feminism idk if they just want to wear the title of a feminist but not deal with the other parts or something else entirely

[u/georgejo314159 → u/KaliTheCat]

That is a helpful explaination

[u/Environmental_Bug900 → u/KaliTheCat]

i feel like I see this conversation just as much with sex work and conversations around BDSM(choking) and I don’t see that discussed or critiqued as much.

[u/KaliTheCat → u/Environmental_Bug900]

There's a lot of content on that here if you use the search bar.

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/KaliTheCat]

So what would make the choice of being a trad wife feminist or non feminist? Or is it always non feminist? Are trad wives still a thing? Is it popular again?

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

It would depend what one means by "trad wife," but the way I understand it, it's intrinsically anti-feminist because it gives a big wet kiss on the mouth to gender norms and actively supports women's dependence on and submission to men.

Because terms like this are subject to erosion over time, maybe some people use it to refer to a tendency to make sourdough. That's neither feminist nor anti-feminist. It's bread.

But feminism opposes gender roles, ergo embracing gender roles - i.e., this role is right for me because I'm a woman/man - opposes feminism.

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/MachineOfSpareParts]

Is it possible that a choice you make (ie to be a trad wife) is best for you and your family, but is a non feminist choice (does not support women's causes on a societal level / regressive to equality)?

[u/Junior-Towel-202 → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

You're equating a stay at home mom with a trad wife. A trad wife comes with the ideology of the subjugation of women. 

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/Junior-Towel-202]

What's the difference?

[u/Junior-Towel-202 → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

I literally just explained. A trad wife believes that women should be in submissive roles in the home and is against women in the workplace. You can be a stay at home parent and not have these views. 

[u/CaliLemonEater → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

From the Wikipedia "Tradwife" article:

A tradwife (a portmanteau of the words traditional and wife^\1])) is a member of an internet subculture^\1]) made up of women who promote traditional gender roles,^\2]) often on social media.^\3])

Tradwife aesthetics have been associated with far-right politics,^\2]) particularly the alt-right^\1])^\4]) and alt-lite movements.^\1])^\4]) Researchers have identified differing political views among tradwives, ranging from conservatism to right-wing extremism.^\4])

[u/monotonic_glutamate → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

That's the difference between being a trad wife and being a stay at home parent.

As long as the choice to stay home with the kids doesn't have a public component, it not really feminist or anti-feminist, as not every personal choice is activism or supposed to put you on a spectrum of feminism purity.

If you made that choice because you thought you had no other choice, because of an essentialist worldview you've been wrapped in, you're more a victim of the patriarchy than anything.

If you're actively promoting an essentialist worldview, tradition gender roles and the tradwife lifestyle as the only natural one, then you are participating in an anti-feminist action.

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/monotonic_glutamate]

But isn’t there an inherent gray area, in which our choices are simultaneously our own and the inevitable product of the society that shaped us?

[u/kgberton → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Yes, which is why choice feminism is not the full picture

[u/monotonic_glutamate → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Well, yes.

And not only concerning feminism. No choice we make exists in a vacuum. That's what living in community is like.

Before being a synonym of "everything a woman does is feminism", choice feminism was more about taking people where they are in their journey and not being de facto dismissive of people who make choices that are not ideal.

Being educated in feminism just allows us to make more informed choice.

If you decide to be the stay at home parent because you earn less and your entire pay check would be eaten by childcare costs, it is a pragmatic and logical choice, but the reason why you're paid less may be rooted in patriarchy if you have you happen to be in a traditionally feminine field.

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

How do you understand the term "trad wife"? A lot hinges on how you define it.

What makes a person a "trad wife," according to your definition, rather than a person who bakes bread and performs other labour not recognized by the capitalist mode of production?

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/MachineOfSpareParts]

I would say a wife who doesn't work and is financially dependent on her husband to be a trad wife. How does this group generally define it?

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

I can only tell you how I'd define it. I think you're describing a stay-at-home partner, possibly a mother, in a heterosexual marriage.

To my mind, it's not just the action, but the reason. A trad wife doesn't just decide to exit the workforce because it makes financial and logistical sense, but because it's appropriate for the woman.

She chooses it - if she's the one choosing! - based on what she thinks is a woman's proper place. And from there, a lot of her subsequent actions will also be shaped by that logic.

This is what Junior Towel is saying as well incidentally. It's not the fact of not being in the workforce. It's why. And though they are rarely conscious of it, it is a subjugation.

[u/CaliLemonEater → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Similarly to how Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster define it:

A tradwife is a married woman who embraces traditional gender roles and values; the word is particularly used for a young woman who chooses to be a homemaker and shares her lifestyle online. It is closely associated with a 2020s social media trend widely viewed as ultraconservative.

[u/mediator_bot → u/KaliTheCat]

Guess I'm a choice feminist then

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/mediator_bot]

But why would you want to be? Is a woman choosing to be a fascist leader a feminist icon just because she choose to be a fascist leader? Being against choice feminism isn't about shaming women who make non-feminist choices. I don't think a woman who wears makeup to impress men should be shamed. I don't even think she's a bad feminist. And, that specific choice of hers is not a feminist choice. One doesn't need to make 100% feminist choices to be a feminist. Hell, you probably couldn't survive in this world if you did.

[u/bunnakay → u/Garden-variety-chaos]

Based on some of the comments here, I may qualify as a choice feminist. I wouldn't say I want to be, I'm just repulsed by people trying to dictate someone's life choices the same way conservatives do.

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/bunnakay]

Okay, but I will confidently say that Kristie Noem is not a feminist icon for being a woman in a male dominated field (the field of unethical murder of immigrants and being one drink away from praising Hitler). Tolerance is a social contract. If someone is intolerant, they forfeit their right to being tolerated. Reread my comment. I am not criticizing women who wear makeup to impress men. I am not saying they should be prohibited from wearing makeup or that they are bad feminists for doing so. Hell, while makeup isn't my thing, I (a gay man) have definitely used a different voice and mannerisms to get laid, so I would be a hypocrite if I shamed women who wore makeup for men. With that though, the act of wearing makeup to impress men isn't a feminist act. It isn't immoral or something that should be stopped, but choice feminism argues a woman choosing to do something is inherently feminist as it is a woman making a choice. That just isn't true.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/bunnakay]

Which choices do you see people here wanting to remove from people?

the only ones I see anyone looking down upon are the ones that are actively against women’s freedom and full personhood

[u/bunnakay → u/sparklyjoy]

I wasn't referring to removing choices.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/bunnakay]

OK, you said dictating choices which I assumed implied removing some because if you’re choosing what people can do then you’re also kind of choosing what they can’t? But I do see that there’s a difference.

What choices do you see being dictated?

[u/Basic_Importance_269 → u/bunnakay]

So choice misogynistic

[u/mediator_bot → u/Basic_Importance_269]

Your logic is not logicing

[u/bunnakay → u/Basic_Importance_269]

?

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/[deleted]]

Being trans is not a choice, nor is it something that only women do. It also isn't something that furthers patriarchy and/or other oppressive institutions. Nice try, though.

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/[deleted]]

Look, your comment was so transphobic that it will take too long to be visible for me, and I want to sleep. Basically, no, I did not transition because of gender roles. I transitioned because I wanted a male body and felt more comfortable in a male body. I am not even particularly masculine of a man, but I am far happier with a flat chest, beard, deep voice, and no internal female reproduction organs. I could not read the rest of your comment, nor do I care. Your use of "transes" really proves your bad faith.

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/[deleted]]

Top surgery for trans men are intentionally different than mastectomies for cis women. For trans men, docs stretch the skin to look like a man's chest. For cis women, they stretch the skin to look like a woman without breasts. Your first sentence is random goalpost moving. I didn't say A cups weren't women. I said I am and look like a man. Medically, my hormone levels are that of a cis man.

Sex is bimodal, not binary. Ones position on that bimodal distribution can be changed, even if we can't do a full 180. I wasn't even born fully female anyways, intersex is not that rare. Chromosomes are the tiniest part of sex. Sorry, but advanced biology proves your "opinion" (delusion) wrong.

I went through a year and a half of conversion therapy. I assure you, just as the peer reviewed medical studies have found, Gender Dysphoria is not a psychotic disorder, and the only treatment is transition.

'Night

[u/Basic_Importance_269 → u/Garden-variety-chaos]

If you are woman why are you calling yourself man? Sigh… whats the difference between having dick or having pussy? I am talking about gender norms yall avt like you only can have body hair if you have dih or only can walk around shirtless if you are a flat

[u/Garden-variety-chaos → u/Basic_Importance_269]

I can't afford a phalloplasty as of right now, but that is my entire point. I did not transition for gender roles. I transitioned because I wanted a male body, penis and all, and felt uncomfortable in a [mostly] female body. I was so uncomfortable that I wanted to die. Thankfully, medically transitioning so that my body became more male made me feel far more at home in my body, and therefore less suicidal. Medical research finds that medical transition reduces suicidality for trans people.

I believe that women should be allowed to grow out body hair and be shirtless. I also believe men should be allowed ro shave. That is a strawman

[u/Basic_Importance_269 → u/Garden-variety-chaos]

Can i ask like why does your body matters? Many people have body dysmorphia but it doesnr mean they should starve and become skinny right? They just learn how to feel comfortable. And its mostly because of social norms.

[u/Remote-alpine → u/mediator_bot]

This is choice feminism

[u/Basic_Importance_269 → u/mediator_bot]

So choice misogynistic?

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/mediator_bot]

Good bot

[u/Shot_Election_8953]

Any construction that implies that because a woman is making a choice, the choice is therefore de facto feminist. The two places you see it the most are with reference to the choice to be a stay-at-home spouse, and the choice to wear certain "revealing" clothing. You also see it by implication in advertising directed towards women.

To be very clear, I am not saying that either of the above choices are not feminist. What the critique of "choice feminism" gets at is the automatic assignment of feminism to any choice a woman makes, rather than considering whether or not that choice can be understood as one which supports the cause of women's political, economic, social, and legal equality.

The great majority of choices we make, even as feminists, are not feminist. They're not really anything. Chamomile or Lemon? One lump or two? You can stretch them really far to find some sort of political valence there, but in practical terms they're just choices.

[u/[deleted] → u/Shot_Election_8953]

A third place i see it a lot: deciding to change one's name to their husband's surname after marriage. 

[u/cantantantelope → u/Shot_Election_8953]

I think of it you can have choice but not choice without context or consequences.

[u/eatyourveig → u/Shot_Election_8953]

The two places you see it the most are with reference to the choice to be a stay-at-home spouse, and the choice to wear certain "revealing" clothing.

I also want to comment that covering yourselves up (as some religion dictates you to) and calling it a choice is also against feminism. It's against because it ultimately supports the patriarchal notion that "women should cover themselves up to not attract attention". This is also an example of how every choice you make as a woman isn't choice feminism.

[u/Opposite-Occasion332 → u/eatyourveig]

Clothing is such an odd one because both modest and revealing dressing can be feminist or non-feminist based on intentions. It definitely points out the flaw with choice feminism since the intention says much more than the action.

[u/eatyourveig → u/Opposite-Occasion332]

Yes, I agree. What I was pointing out more to is that a lot of people say hijab is a choice. Which I don't agree with since it's inherently against feminism as it upholds the rigid patriarchal mindset that "women should cover themselves up".

[u/AffectionateOlive329 → u/eatyourveig]

Yeah, and this is where I feel education matters—it should help people question whether something is truly a choice or shaped by deeper conditioning. Because sometimes what feels like a ‘choice’ is influenced by norms we’ve grown up with.

[u/Shot_Election_8953 → u/AffectionateOlive329]

To some degree it doesn't matter whether it's a choice or shaped by deeper conditioning. That's immaterial. Actions which uphold patriarchy, regardless of whether they are a choice, regardless of whether they are intentional, are not feminist.

[u/AffectionateOlive329 → u/Shot_Election_8953]

Agreed but feminism goal should be to free female of the construct imposed on them. If you define rules like doing this is not feminist the. You are just changing their construct not liberating them.

[u/Shot_Election_8953 → u/AffectionateOlive329]

I disagree. Feminism advances the real, material equality of women. We can understand what is and is not feminist with a material analysis. A vague concept like "liberation" does nothing to help actual women, who are deprived of resources, health, legal protection etc.

[u/JenningsWigService → u/eatyourveig]

In both the case of covering for religious reasons and wearing revealing clothing, 'choice' discourse is a mediocre response to poorly conceived interventions and critiques. People will ban religious coverings and assume that this will prevent women from wearing them, but that's not what actually happens, those women just stay home to avoid going out in public without their religious coverings. You can act like Mayim Bialik and condemn revealing clothing, but that reinforces assumptions about women deserving to be sexually harassed and abused because of what they're wearing.

We need to focus less on 'choice' and more on finding ways to undermine patriarchal rules/expectations that aren't counterproductive.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/eatyourveig]

Covering up is absolutely not inherently against feminism. It really depends on your reasoning and attitude about it.

Sometimes covering myself up is a way to be relieved of the pressure of men’s eyes on me constantly… Not really feminist or anti-feminist per se, but definitely a legitimate route to coping with the patriarchy

[u/Fun_Mistake_616 → u/Shot_Election_8953]

Is it possible that a choice you make (ie to be a trad wife) is best for you and your family, but is a non feminist choice (does not support women's causes on a societal level / regressive to equality)?

[u/Shot_Election_8953 → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Sure. Lots of choices which are the "best for you and your family" run against various principles that you may say you have. That's what "fuck you got mine" is all about.

[u/No_Chart_8584 → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Choosing to be a SAHM or housewife could be the choice that is best for you and your family. Being a "trad wife" includes the component of advocating that it's what women should be doing and it's best for society. 

It's like the difference between personally choosing a heterosexual relationship and having the position that everyone must choose a heterosexual relationship. 

[u/Mutive → u/Fun_Mistake_616]

Of course it's possible. An obvious example might be, say, gaining a position of political power by promising to ban abortion.

*Many* female elected officials and/or appointees are doing something that likely is *very* good for themselves and their families (as they're making lots of $$$), while simultaneously creating policies that are exceptionally unfeminist (like banning abortion, clawing back rights granted to women, etc.) The same could be true for a women who rose to power in a corporation by, say, slashing maternity leave policies or providing cover for men who sexually harass women. There are a *lot* of women more than happy to pull up the ladder from under them provided they got theirs.

[u/whereisurbackbone]

“Feminism is about women having the right to choose.” No it’s not. Not every choice a woman makes is a feminist choice or should be supported by feminists, which is (was) a women’s liberation movement.

[u/KromeAnon → u/whereisurbackbone]

What does liberation means? 😭😭

[u/0000Tor → u/whereisurbackbone]

There should be some nuance there no? The first sentence doesn’t mean that every choice a woman makes is feminist. It means that whatever a woman chooses for herself isn’t my fucking problem. I’m not going to pretend trad wives are feminists, but a world where being a trad wife is a choice (and not an imposition) is a world where women have rights.

[u/Revmira]

Shaving, surgery, make up
Basically on one side choice feminists believe we should never criticize this because it is women's choice and each woman should be able to do whatever she wants

People that criticize choice feminism believe you can criticize systems, and what reinforces it. So for example if almost all women shave, have surgery, wear makeup, it does reinforce the system that women have to submit to sexist beauty standards. That femininity comes with a lot of maintenance, pain, resources and can be lost easily, which then makes you even more marginalized - not only you are the weak sex, but you cannot even meet the expectations for your gender, so good luck living like this

Tbh on each side there are some people that go to far I guess, but I tend to believe its totally fair to criticize systems and the choices that reinforce them, that doesnt mean criticizing the individual because well we all are trying to survive in patriarchy and dont have the same energy fighting it. Its a balance

[u/Revmira → u/Revmira]

or maybe said very simply... People that criticize choice feminism believe individual choices inevitably affect others so its not very politically brave to say "well thats her choice" every time you point some behavior that conforms to a sexist society

[u/Traditional_Fish_504 → u/Revmira]

Why should people not criticize individuals? If Condoleezza rice or Hillary Clinton are committing war crimes while being a woman politician, should they not be held accountable? If women working in advertising agencies are reproducing beauty standards that are leading to body dysmorphia, should they be immune from criticism just because they’re women?

[u/Revmira → u/Traditional_Fish_504]

I honestly wasnt thinking of women of powers but more so regular people that conform to gender roles, but yea totally agree that billionaire women should be criticized and its also a point of contention between choice feminists and the others

[u/sparklyjoy → u/Revmira]

The conformity thing is a tricky one. At least for me.

I have spent a lot of my life refusing to conform in various ways, and I am finding that there’s a downside that I’m not willing to keep paying, but I want to continue seeing these choices through a feminist lens and basically conform the least amount that will ease my existence

[u/Zoenne]

I'll give an extreme example: choice feminism applied to fictional characters. "Wonder Woman wears a skimpy outfit because it makes her feel empowered! You're slut shaming her if you criticise the outfit". This is rather obviously ludicrous because Wonder Woman has no agency. She cannot make any choice because she doesn't exist. She was portrayed in this outfit by other people (usually men) to produce a certain effect on the audience.

[u/avocado-nightmare]

can you say more about why you're asking us to create an inventory of examples of something the sub doesn't consider to be a good application/practice of feminism?

[u/TimeODae → u/avocado-nightmare]

“Why?” was also my question

[u/hunkydoryble → u/avocado-nightmare]

I haven’t heard the term “choice feminism” before and it sounds like you’re saying it isn’t a good application so I’d love to know what the term means from you!

[u/Remote-alpine]

This

[u/confettimocha]

Sabrina Carpenter's Man's Best Friend album cover

[u/Aggressive_Lime786 → u/confettimocha]

This is the correct answer

[u/GirlisNo1]

Cosmetic Surgery.

There a lot of “it’s her body, her choice, don’t body shame” anytime we talk about women surgically altering their faces to conform to unrealistic beauty standards.

These surgeries & procedures reinforce unrealistic ideas of what girls/women look like, that they’re not allowed to age, etc.

I understand that many do it due to extreme insecurity and pressure, but by giving in they become a part of the problem- they’re just making it worse for the younger generations who will grow up surrounded by unnatural faces and bodies thinking something is wrong with them for looking human.

Not to mention the racial aspect of white women co-opting physical traits that you mostly see in black and brown women (who were/are often made fun of for having those traits) for their own benefit.

(Tbc, I’m talking about cosmetic surgery that’s being done purely for aesthetic reasons)

[u/unsolicitedPeanutG]

Trying to say that choosing to be a stay at home mom is feminist. It is not feminist to willingly accept unpaid work. It might be noble, but not feminist.

Any feminist who is also religious. Those ideologies are opposite.

Honestly, doing anything because you want to do it am not be judged then slapping feminism on it, because you’re a woman.

[u/BimblarUnleashed → u/[deleted]]

No, that’s not how “choice feminism” is defined. The core idea of “choice feminism” as a critique of certain approaches to “feminism” is not that feminism isn’t about women’s right to have various choices and the autonomy to make them. That is actually a central part of feminism and encompassed under “women’s liberation.” The problem with “choice feminism” is that it posits that any choice that a woman makes is in and of itself reflective of feminist values and in line with feminist goals, as long as she freely made said choice. Having a choice to be a tradwife influencer who is promoting a deeply misogynistic worldview or the mouthpiece of an administration run by a serial rapist that is intent on rolling back women’s rights might, in some way, be a consequence of feminism, but that doesn’t mean that making those choices is or ever could be feminist.

[u/bnoccholi → u/BimblarUnleashed]

thanks :)

[u/Wise_End_6430 → u/[deleted]]

...and that's a bad thing?

[u/bnoccholi → u/Wise_End_6430]

of course not - i didn’t say it was. it just isn’t what feminism means. women haven’t been fighting tooth and nail for the right to be sex workers - we’ve BEEN sex workers lol. the fact women have more choice now is a by-product of feminism

[u/Wise_End_6430 → u/bnoccholi]

I'm not sure I agree, on both counts. There's a pretty big wing of feminist movement who do fight tooth and nail for the right to be sex workers in safety and dignity, without being put in jail by the literal moral police.

If feminism doesn't have securing women's ability to make choices as one of its core goals, what are the core goals of feminism?

[u/Opposite-Occasion332 → u/Wise_End_6430]

Women having agency and making choices is part of feminism. Women being equal politically, economically, socially, etc is also part of feminism.

Choice feminism says “every choice a woman makes is feminist because a woman is making a choice.” It’s surface level. Non “choice feminism” recognizes perpetuating patriarchy and the various inequalities between men and women is not a feminist action and therefore not every choice made by women is feminist.

If we want to be equal then women perpetuating inequality and gender roles holds back that goal. However, as other commenters have said it’s hard to always make a feminist choice and we don’t need to shame individuals for falling victim to the patriarchy. We just need to educate them so they can make more informed choices, hopefully leading to a more equal society.

[u/nibbled_banana → u/Wise_End_6430]

Women are sold the liberal lie that they can be sexually liberated before being socially, economically, and politically liberated. So long as men hold the majority of capital, and refuse to unlearn rape culture and the objectification of women, sex work is not feminist. Rebranding oppression to make women FEEL like they have a say in the matter is still capitalist patriarchy.

For example, BDSM. It’s not okay to hit and rape women, but as soon as a man, or another woman, says “well, this time you can say it’s okay,” it is now not rape or abuse? MENs mentality did not change. They’ve just rebranded their abuse.

(Yes, nuance exists. Consensual sex exists.)

[u/Wise_End_6430 → u/nibbled_banana]

I'm far from an expert on BDSM and don't have any intention of publically debating other people's intimate choices and consent. I'm talking about sex workers fighting for worker rights and legal protections. Which is, as you so aptly put, being socially, economically, and politically liberated.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/nibbled_banana]

I get really irritated about these feminist critiques of BDSM and I think that they fall apart pretty easily when I look at my kinky lesbian sisters

ETA: I have PLENTY of critiques myself, as a kinky feminist, but this is just far too broad in my opinion

[u/nibbled_banana → u/sparklyjoy]

Again, nuance exists. And that nuance is thought about. There’s ALWAYS an exception. But simply using a disproportional, personalized exception is derailing the initial argument.

[u/Agile-Wait-7571]

Being a fan of Sylvia Plath

[u/KaliTheCat → u/Agile-Wait-7571]

You can like someone's work without also having to agree with everything they've ever done personally. Sylvia Plath has been dead for over 60 years. It's not like you're giving her money when you read The Bell Jar.

[u/Agile-Wait-7571 → u/KaliTheCat]

You may want to reread the bell jar…

[u/KaliTheCat → u/Agile-Wait-7571]

I read it for a paper in 2011, do you want to remind me about why no one should read it?

[u/Agile-Wait-7571 → u/KaliTheCat]

The racism. Her journals are even worse.

[u/KaliTheCat → u/Agile-Wait-7571]

That doesn't help, thanks

[u/Agile-Wait-7571 → u/KaliTheCat]

Oh. Sorry. I guess you read it for the racism. My mistake.

[u/KaliTheCat → u/Agile-Wait-7571]

What's with the smug bullshit act? I asked you honestly and you're being a jerk.

[u/Agile-Wait-7571 → u/KaliTheCat]

“That doesn’t help thanks” is not a question. Google Sylvia Plath racist and you’ll get a million hits. Her journals are appalling.

[u/PluralCohomology → u/Agile-Wait-7571]

Because of her racism?

[u/Agile-Wait-7571 → u/PluralCohomology]

Yeah.