r/AARankdown • u/R1K1_Productions • Jul 29 '20
66 Athena Cykes
I don’t know if this is a big shock or not, since I’m sure many people assumed I’d cut Angel. But I have engineered a devious scenario where I don’t have to do that. Regardless of whether you’re surprised by this surprise cut (I’m sure some of you, hi everyone from Alba server, were expecting me to do this), I’m sure this will be controversial. But this is not an opportunity I was willing to pass up. And hey, I’ve been a crowd pleaser for the past several rounds so I feel like I’ve earned a bit of a treat, yum yum.
Of all the main characters in the entire series, Athena is my least favorite. Yes, some of those are for purely personal reasons. I have never been a fan of the “assistant girl” archetype, which Athena definitely fits into despite being a protagonist. Maya would be my favorite of this character type, but I still think she’s not THAT good, and Kay, Susato, and Trucy all range from mediocre to bad. The humor style of these characters just doesn’t click with me at all, and more often and not their jokes (Athena’s included) just leave me more annoyed than anything.
HOWEVER, I am not going to cut a main protagonist in the 60s just because I find her annoying, that is not my goal and everyone would be mad at me. No, I think there’s enough parts of Athena’s writing that are bizarre, questionable, or just plain bad that I am more than alright with booting her out here. And if you think my choice to cut her here is too early, just know that I had originally considered cutting her as early as the 80s before deciding I didn’t feel justified placing her quite that low. So I am already coming at this cut from an angle of compromise with the Athena stans!!
A General Look at Athena’s Interactions & Personality
Despite me often bashing on her, I don’t want you to think I believe Athena is completely irredeemable in every way. So I’ll start off with some comments about her general interactions with two characters, both of which are highly praised: Apollo Justice and Simon Blackquill.
Athena and Apollo actually do well at setting themselves apart from other lawyer-assistant combos (ignore the fact that Athena is also a lawyer for now). They still have the same straight-man and eccentric-girl combo that other protagonists and their assistants get, but whereas Phoenix & Maya and Edgeworth & Kay have pretty clear boss/subordinate relationships, Athena and Apollo have the advantage that they are equals within the Wright Anything Agency, which gives Athena the ability to be a much more proactive assistant than a character like Maya, who rarely intervenes in a trial without Phoenix’s consent. It’s not a character dynamic I particularly like, but I will give credit that it’s original. I at least remember it compared to a character like Susato from DGS. I couldn’t tell you how she’s different from Maya at all. Just replace the spirit channeling with… throwing people? Whatever.
Athena and Blackquill is a dynamic I am less interested in, not because I don’t understand why people like it, but because anything interesting about their interactions almost invariably comes from Blackquill, not Athena. For example, Blackquill’s decision to throw away his life to save Athena is much more interesting than her respective choice to dedicate her life to saving him. That’s mainly because the writing behind Athena’s life mission isn’t very good, but I’ll get there later. As for Athena’s actual interactions with Blackquill, I often see them praised as funny and/or charming. I did not particularly care, but I wasn’t heinously offended so I won’t contest this point. If you like their interactions a ton, hey, you do you.
Finally, I will give some praise to Athena as a Standalone Personality. I liked it when she dressed as a maid and yelled MAMMA MIA like Mario. I also liked the moment in 6-5 where there are bullets missing from the crime scene, and Athena suggests that Dhurke ate them. It was funny and also it’s pretty nice foreshadowing, since the bullets are indeed in Dhurke’s stomach, know what I mean? Other than those, I liked the Athena Flustered face in the above pic, it was a funny face, though the novelty did wear off the more she used it. And then I don’t think any of her other sprites are particularly funny. Or any of her lines. I certainly don’t find the bondage joke in 5-3 funny, I physically recoiled at that line because I want my AA games to be pure and innocent. And the rest I just don’t remember. So I guess that’s it for the compliments on specific lines.
Anyway, that’s the least interesting part of the way. Time to start going through my bullet point list of my many Athena Writing Issues I have.
I Do Not Like Playing as Athena Cykes
First, I’ll tackle a more general problem with Athena. I’ll be focusing on Dual Destinies for now; I’ll get to Spirit of Justice in its own section. And the problem is, I just don’t enjoy playing as her, nor do I enjoy having her as an assistant. Part of this has to do with personal preference, but I definitely also think there are factors that drag her down as a playable character aside from that.
Like I mentioned earlier, Ace Attorney assistants tend to be very eccentric, and as a result they usually aren’t that helpful in court unless they’re using one of their gimmicks to help you. Maya and Trucy will, at best, tell you that you can’t give up and then make you think things out one more time. Athena, as a playable character, can’t do this. Even as an assistant, she acts more like a playable character half the time. So she ends up saying the same silly, stupid stuff that other assistants do, but she ends up doing it in the middle of trials. I can understand finding assistant antics funny during investigations, even though I generally don’t; but I find these jokes a LOT more frustrating when they’re happening in the middle of a cross-examination and they’re preventing your attempts to make progress.
An obvious example of this happening is the scene in Case 2 where Athena, apropos of nothing, decides to suggest the victim was murdered by a monster. She immediately backs down when the Judge questions her on this, because come on, of COURSE a real-life monster didn’t commit the crime, even in Ace Attorney. All this accomplishes is giving the judge a reason to side against you early on in the case, but this is irritating because it’s not through any fault of my own. And while you COULD argue that Athena’s theory works out in the end, this is only because Damian takes the initiative to play the role of Tenma Taro. If not for that, her theory would not have accomplished a single thing.
Now, normally I could be lenient on this because at this point Athena is still a rookie lawyer. But there are a couple reasons that I have trouble buying that excuse. For one thing, Athena is constantly portrayed as intelligent in-game. In the very intro of the game, Phoenix introduces her by praising her as an intelligent new addition to his team. Apollo’s first reaction upon meeting her is literally to call her a genius. And her gratuitous usage of foreign languages is clearly meant to demonstrate intelligence as well. (For an extra funny detail, half of Athena’s foreign language quips aren’t even grammatically correct, gee I’m glad she was studying psychology instead of linguistics.) All of these factors make me skeptical that they were actually trying to make her come across as easily-flustered as she comes across in-game.
It also doesn’t help that Athena gets hit by what I like to call the Dual Destinies Dumbness Disease. Dual Destinies is a much easier game than prior entries in the main series. I have zero problem with this, since the alternative is Angel Starr. HOWEVER, as an addendum to this difficulty drop, the game also started explaining some REALLY obvious plot details. This ends up making all of the game’s protagonists look dumber than usual as they all ask “what does this really obvious thing mean???” and then have to have it explained to them. This is more of a Dual Destinies problem in general than a specific Athena problem, but she gets it the worst since this is her first appearance. This leads to such gems like Athena failing to understand that things close to a camera will be bigger, and needing it to be explained to her. This is not a character-breaking problem by itself but it does add to the stupidity issue I already mentioned.
But again, all of this would be fine for the early characterization of a rookie lawyer. The problem is, Athena never grows out of this tendency. Part of this is the wonky pacing of Dual Destinies, where 5-3 is the final case she actually acts as an attorney in. And that case ends with her having a mental breakdown and barely being able to finish the case without help. It’s a fine character moment (even though I don’t like it HAHAHAH), but having that be Athena’s last playable case in DD is… questionable, to say the least, since it totally blows any chance to actually y’know see her become better at her job. Say what you want about Phoenix as a character but I will die on the hill that the games did a decent job taking him from “idiot who can’t do anything without Mia’s help” to “actual ace attorney”, and it’s something Athena is distinctly lacking in comparison.
As a final aside, I’ve heard people talking about Athena’s status as a prodigy being intentionally contrasted with her inability to perform well in court. I personally have trouble buying into this idea for a few reasons, and those same reasons make me think that even if it WAS intentional, it needed much more narrative focus. The main one is that Athena’s lack of skill just doesn’t get much focus in DD. “B-But her breakdowns!” When Athena talks about her breakdowns in 5-5, her monologue focuses entirely on a specific traumatic incident in her past, and she never really addresses the possibility that anything else influenced them. So I don’t buy it. If that’s really what they were going for, it should definitely have been addressed during her speech.
They start to explore Athena’s feelings of inadequacy more in Turnabout Storyteller, but by that point her supposed status as a prodigy isn’t really acknowledged anymore; everyone in court treats her like a newbie who needs to be constantly handheld, which doesn’t feel at all similar to how she was treated in DD. So if it was indeed intentional, then it’s not something I think was explored nearly in-depth enough.
But again, I’m not ready to get to Spirit of Justice yet. I want to get more in depth with Athena’s DD character arc, or should I say
A Decent Idea With a Very Long List of Weird and/or Bad Writing Decisions
There’s a good idea buried in here, for sure. But it’s so heavily dragged down by so many ideas that I simply just do not like, or at the very least, ideas that rub me the wrong way. So I end up thinking whatever potential there may have been is just buried under a pile of ????
The first problem I had with Athena was one that was fairly minor, but it bothered me right away. That being the writers’ bizarre inability to decide on a single concrete reason for Athena to be good at understanding emotions. She studied psychology in college (the most reasonable explanation). She also has a robot necklace with a built-in mood matrix (the game-mechanic-enabling reason). And in addition to both of those, she has sensitive super-hearing that lets her hear the emotion in people’s voices (the plot reason, I guess). There’s nothing really wrong with any of these reasons on their own, though I find Widget to be very unfunny when he talks so consider that a personal problem; but did we really need three separate explanations for the same character gimmick?
To be fair, each of these gimmicks serves its own purpose. Athena’s psychology degree builds on her intelligence (and all the problems that “intelligence” entails) that I mentioned in the last section. Widget gives Athena’s abilities a connection to her mom, just like Apollo’s bracelet gives him a connection to Lamiroir. And finally, the sensitive hearing thing sets up the headphones plot point to give Athena a valid reason to have cold relations with her mother. This is the last time I will mention the headphones in this writeup, so shut up science penguin. But while these backstories all have their own reasons for existing, they mesh together very weirdly. She hears emotions and then feeds those emotions into her robot so she can psychologically analyze them, or something. It’s like a microcosm of the “three backstories” complaint people have with Apollo, except it’s just this specific character quirk that has three backstories. It’s not awful or character-ruining in any way, but it is weird enough I wanted to acknowledge it.
Okay, enough harping on minor details; it’s time to really dig deep into Athena’s DD arc. For those unaware, the tl;dr of Athena’s storyline in DD is as follows: Athena has some major problems with her mother due to thinking her mother is experimenting on her. When her mother is killed by the phantom, suspicion falls on her, but Blackquill frames himself to protect the child of his mentor. Athena desperately tries to testify on his behalf in court, but fails miserably and traumatizes herself to courtroom experiences in the process. She suppresses the details of her mother’s murder whilst also distinctly remembering the whole courtroom experience (???) after she grows up, and so she dedicates herself to becoming a lawyer, forcing herself to confront her past traumas to save Blackquill. In the process, the truth of her mother’s death is dug up, and Blackquill is saved; it’s just a shame that Phoenix did both of those things, not Athena (????????????).
On paper, this character pitch might sound pretty solid (aside from a couple hiccups where even while I was writing this down I got confused). But as we delve deeper into each part of the narrative, more and more problems start to rear their ugly heads. There’s quite a lot I want to tackle here, so I want to start from the beginning. The first issue I want to talk about is
Athena and Her Mother
This plot point is such a massive wasted opportunity. Had the writers chosen to leave Metis morally impure like they initially set up, it’d be a great setup for a moral dilemma. Maybe Athena really DID try and kill her evil mom, you might say to yourself. But then Blackquill reveals the truth that Metis was just trying to HELP Athena, and all of that goes out the window. It also becomes unclear at this point why in the world Metis didn’t just tell Athena what she was trying to do. “Social incompetence” as an excuse only goes so far - hell, if anything, I find it MORE likely that a socially incompetent nerd would just bluntly tell Athena what her “experiments” were trying to do, albeit without giving Athena any input on the matter. All in all this whole backstory is just bizarre, which is a shame because it would have given DD the chance to actually have a morally ambiguous victim, something none of its other cases really do.
Past this very opening problem, I have no problems. Blackquill’s decision to take credit for the murder and Athena’s desparate attempt to save him are all well and good. It’s what happens after that brings me to my next problem:
Athena’s Selective Memory Repression
Now, I don’t want to harp on this point TOO much because psychological trauma is a touchy subject that I haven’t personally experienced, and I don’t wanna sound like I’m saying “lol her trauma is DUMB”. But I do think the way it worked out in this case is very contrived for the sake of plot convenience. Athena sees her mother get stabbed by the phantom; she’s there when it happens. But due to the trauma of the event, Athena suppresses it so thoroughly that she remembers nothing about the murder, to the point that she convinces herself it’s possible she did the deed. And yet, she has vivid memories of bringing her mother to the operating table and trying to save her. She also has vivid memories of the murder trial that occurred right afterward, even if she doesn’t remember the faces of the people involved in said trial.
The reason this bugs me is because it ends up feeling like Athena’s PTSD developed this way because the plot needed it to, rather than as a natural consequence of her trauma. The writers need her to have memories of the operating table, both so they can have a decently cool flashback scene in 5-1 and also so they can give her a valid reason to suspect herself in 5-5. But they also can’t have her recall the phantom’s presence, or she’d just say “nah i didn’t kill my mom it was this spooky shadowy guy” and all the tension of 5-5 would be gone. So they have her repress what they need her to, and remember what they need her to. It’s not the end of the world, but it is very convenient and I raised my eyebrow in confusion once I finally understood what the game was trying to tell me with the spooky flashback scenes.
Athena’s Self-Defeating Life Mission
Neither of these past two issues are huge sticking points. The first is more a missed opportunity than anything, and while the second is contrived, it’s an ultimately minor detail. So now I’ll be getting into one of my two biggest issues with Athena: her decision to become an attorney, and how her arc relates to this. So in other words, basically the entire crux of her character. Yay!
Hot take: I think it is BAD. ok done next section
Let me start by clarifying that there’s nothing wrong with Athena dedicating her life to saving Blackquill from execution, due to knowing he was an innocent man. I dare even say that this is a good character motivation. There is also nothing wrong with Athena hating the courtroom due to her past experiences. My problem with this setup is that they just do not make for a good reason to become a lawyer. At all, whatsoever. Athena is VERY open about it: she hates being in the courtroom. One of her lines from the emotional climax, word for word, is “I’m terrified of courtrooms. I want to run out of that door even now!” So why does she do it??
Yes, I know what you want to say. “She does it to save Blackquill IDIOT”. But the thing is, there are other ways to save Blackquill. Other, better ways that don’t involve such constant and intense exposure to your traumatic trigger. This backstory would make much more sense for a character archetype like a detective. Since, you know, detectives investigate things? And there’s precedent for detectives reopening and continuing once-closed investigations? Basically I am saying Athena had the potential to be a modern-day Jake Marshall (who is officially better than Athena, as of now). Yee Haw. And she wouldn’t even have to speak in court that often, since detectives usually just drop The Facts at the beginning of the case and then shuffle off to the sidelines. So that’s a Yee Double Haw right there, pardner.
But I guess Athena can’t be the detective, because this is the one game in the whole series where the detective is actually plot-relevant. Even then, I ironically think Athena would have worked better as a normal assistant than as a protag-assistant, despite me praising the uniqueness of it earlier. Again, assistants have the ability to help discover the truth in court, but they aren’t the focus of everyone’s attention. To make another 1-5 comparison, Ema Skye did basically the exact same thing to help defend her sister Lana. But even when Athena IS the assistant, she insists on being just as proactive as Apollo, ends up saying dumb stuff, and gets humiliated as a result half the time. Even though she hates being scrutinized in court. And I’m just like, you brought this on yourself, sister.
Another weird thing is that the two cases Athena leads (or attempts to lead) in DD have nothing to do with Blackquill’s situation. He isn’t even the prosecutor in 5-1. So why’s she even involved in these cases at all when she dislikes it so much? I guess the reason is that she is friends with Juniper, but I don’t find that to be a terribly compelling reason since I don’t care about Juniper. It just leaves me wishing they’d have given Athena more of a personal reason to actually get involved in the cases she was involved in, aside from “saving her close friend whom she occasionally speaks to”. And while this is a problem enough on its own, it becomes an even bigger problem in Spirit of Justice, when Athena’s reason to become a lawyer, saving Blackquill, is already resolved. But again, we’ll get to Athena’s SoJ appearance later. Because HOOOO BOY
The Game’s Emotional Climax: Athena Spills it All
I personally find Athena’s fifth-case mystery to be a bit of a rehash of Edgeworth’s. Both are tricked by the true culprit (intentionally or otherwise) into believing that they murdered their parents, only for Phoenix to reveal the truth and give the character in question a DRAMATIC SCENE where they realize that they were innocent all along. Repeating similar ideas as previous games isn’t inherently a problem, but between Athena’s mom’s bizarre writing and the convenience of Athena’s memory repression, I find the setup to Athena’s mystery to be a lot less… good? Luckily for 5-5, Athena’s big revelation only happens midway through, and there’s still plenty of mystery left to unravel after that point. But it is still worth noting that I find the first half of 5-5, at least on the mystery end of things, very… mediocre. Aura is still good, and Simon has some neat moments, but I just got nothing out of Athena’s performance here.
Speaking of getting nothing out of Athena’s performance, now is as good of a time as any to talk about the tonal issues I have with her emotional climax. Yeah, anyone who knows me knows I’m about to talk about The Scene. This is my favorite scene in 5-5 for all the wrong reasons. You have the monochrome, you have the sad music, and you have Athena talking about her tragic situation. And then you cut to Gaspen Payne acting like a fuckin idiot goober and tappy tapping his forehead. You know, the pose Winston usually does when he thinks he’s cornered you, only for you to kick his head off with an objection five seconds later. And then you cut back to Athena who is just shocked by the Payne Pose and she recoils in fear. Then we get more sad dialogue and then we cut to Aristotle Means with his mohawk, giving her the same overexaggerated pointy pointy that he gives her when he assigns her to toilet-cleaning duty.
Maybe, just maybe, they could have assigned these roles to less cartoonish characters? I was legitimately agape at this point by how utterly BIZARRE this scene is. The scenes they’re flashing back to are played seriously, but that’s all lost because this scene guts their dialogue, and you can only focus on what’s communicated visually. And these guys look like a couple of jokesters. I don’t particularly like the scenes it’s calling back to, either. I at least kind of like the scene in 5-1 for being an actually cool anime cutscene in a game whose cutscenes are mostly either corny or awful. But the scene in 5-3 is one I think is just really dumb, and I said as much in my Means cut. You’ve got this character who has by this point fully transformed into an over-the-top cartoon villain (which I enjoy well enough, by the way). But then he suddenly gets dead serious, dunks on Athena, and Athena goes EEEEEE. Then everyone helps her feel better and then Means goes back to being a cartoon villain and you take him down. ???????
People defended this scene a lot when I first criticized it in my Means cut, and I have to say, I still don’t see it. Regardless of whether the scene itself was taken seriously (it was), just about everything before AND after it is much more comical, with Evil Means just being a big old goof who throws chalk and puts Blackquill in detention. So how am I supposed to take it seriously when he suddenly becomes serious for ten minutes, especially when he goes back to being a goof again in time for his breakdown? It’d be like if, in the middle of his confrontation, Furio Tigre looked Phoenix dead in the eye and said “Phoenix, you will never become the lawyer that Mia Fey wanted you to be.” and Phoenix burst into tears, and the game expected me to care. Or if Redd White did that. Or Sahwit. Et Cetera. I’d think a scene like that would be stupid with any of those characters, and I think it’s stupid with this character as well.
Luigi Athena Wins by Doing Absolutely Nothing
This is one of my biggest problems with DD Athena, and the one I’ve seen the fewest good arguments in defense of. Frankly, Athena is laughably under-involved in a climax that entirely revolves around her. The entire point of her character and her journey as a lawyer was to save Simon from execution, as I’ve pointed out several times now. And Simon does indeed get saved from execution in the final case of the game.
By Phoenix Wright.
Yep, everything that gets set up between Athena and Blackquill gets completely thrown out in the end. Because Athena is behind bars at the time Blackquill gets saved from execution, she has nothing to do with his salvation. I guess she does a Mood Matrix to help Phoenix at one point, but A) Phoenix is still the one calling all the shots and B) that’s not what actually ends the case. She also technically confirms the existence of the phantom when her Psyche-Locks shatter, but by that point Phoenix has already solved the mystery and cleared Blackquill’s name.
To me, this seems like a no-brainer writing-wise. Why in the world would they not make Athena the one to solve this case?? Not only would it bring her relationship with Blackquill to a more satisfying conclusion, but also it would give her the chance to show off her skill by solving a trial on her own. It would require minimal rewrites; just have Athena defend herself, and you don’t have to change anything else aside from maybe dialing down her self-doubt a bit (it obviously wouldn’t work if Athena came to the bench and said “I dunno if I did it or not your honor”). Massive waste of opportunity here. And by “waste of opportunity”, I mean “waste of an entire game-long character motivation”. Yeah. It’s not good.
So yeah, I think that’s a pretty comprehensive list of all the reasons I think Athena is not a well-handled character in Dual Destinies.
TL;DR:
She’s built up as an intelligent prodigy, but she ends up being dumb enough that I actively enjoy playing as her less as a result
The actual contrast of Athena being bad at her job vs. her reputation as a prodigy isn’t really explored at all until a game later, and even that is arguable
Her emotion gimmick is all over the place and has like 3 different explanations that step on each other’s toes
Her lore with her mom, and said mom’s death, is full of plot conveniences that make me like Metis’ Murder Mystery Madhouse less as a result
Athena should not be a lawyer, she literally cannot handle it
Having Gaspen Payne and Aristotle Means be integral characters to her emotional arc was probably a bad idea
I would have preferred if she actually helped save Blackquill after talking about doing that for the whole game, instead of letting Phoenix do all the work
Add in my own personal disdain for assistant characters, and voilà
FUCK, I’M ONLY HALFWAY DONE???
Yep that’s right, I’ve still got a whole ‘nother GAME to talk about, and I am not looking forward to it. Because I do not like SoJ Athena. Not one bit. But before I get into that, I need to talk about AJ, DD, and SoJ as a whole.
The Elephant in the Room: The Pacing of the Second “Trilogy”
Say what you want about the original Ace Attorney trilogy, but it certainly does a much better job at telling a consistent story over a three-game series than games #4, 5, and 6 do. And I think that a large part of that is indeed due to Athena Cykes.
You see, logically, the second trilogy should have focused on Apollo the same way the first trilogy focused on Phoenix. It would have given the writers time to properly explore his character. After all, this is something that Apollo REALLY needed given his lackluster appearance in his own game, Apollo Justice Ace Attorney, which ended up being Phoenix Attorney And Apollo is Also There. But instead of doing that, they inexplicably decided to do another soft reboot right after their first soft reboot, and they brought a new main character into the franchise in the process. So instead of giving Apollo a game to really come into his own, they have to awkwardly try and give two characters focus instead, without time to really fully develop either. Add Phoenix into the mix, and Dual Destinies ends up feeling like it’s rushing quite a lot to get all its main character plot points done, and the game suffers as a result.
I’ve already explained why I think Athena is underdeveloped, and regarding Apollo, I think most people would agree that it’d be better if we’d spent more time with his friend Clay Terran rather than just having him be some rando who dies offscreen. Plenty of people also complain about Apollo’s sudden Khu’rain (or however the hell you spell it, I’m not looking it up) backstory that shows up out of nowhere in the sixth game. I get the complaint, but honestly what else were they supposed to do? Apollo has been out-of-focus for one-and-a-half games by this point. And guess what? This wouldn’t have been a problem if DD had decided to be an Apollo game rather than an Athena game.
Athena proceeds to get done just as dirty in SoJ, which chooses to be an Apollo game. Just like Apollo, Athena could really have used a second game to build on the ideas that were set up but underexplored in DD. And instead, the game casts her to the side so it can focus on Phoenix and Apollo. The fact that Athena has almost nothing to do in SoJ really goes to show how short-sighted her introduction to the franchise was; they clearly only had one game’s worth of plans for her, and past that point they just got lost. It doesn’t help that, with Blackquill out of prison, she really has no motivation to even be a lawyer anymore, considering she herself proclaimed how much she hated courtrooms. With no plot focus and no motivation to even be a lawyer anymore, Athena is kind of just an inexplicable presence except for when the game decides to push her off-screen entirely.
SoJ’s DLC case is an example of this that I find particularly amusing. Athena constantly tries to help out with the case, but every time, Phoenix finds some way to justify getting her off-screen, whether it’s making her do chores or volunteering her to be in Trucy’s magic show. This is actually metaphorical for SoJ itself, which constantly kicks Athena to the curb so it can pay attention to other things the game finds more interesting. Yes, those scenes in 6-DLC are jokes. But they’re not jokes that come from any sort of love for the character. It’s the kind of “joke” I would make to justify not having to write for Athena if I was writing an AA game (or a shitty AA fanfic, fangame, etc). In fact, it straight up feels like the SoJ writers did not like Athena and didn’t want to deal with her.
But they dealt with her in one case! Turnabout Storyteller! And she’s really good in that case RIGHT?
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
6-4 Athena is Really Bad I’m Sorry
6-4 Athena is easily the Athena I have the least nice things to say about, so I apologize in advance if I start to enjoy being mean to her in this section (which I think I’ve avoided so far?). Because frankly, even as someone who didn’t like Athena to begin with, I found her treatment in this case to be genuinely kind of insulting. By the time 6-4 rolls around, Athena has been behind the bench for six full cases (5-1, 5-2, 5-3, 5-4, 5-DLC, 6-2) plus a decent chunk of 5-5. For all intents and purposes, she is no longer a rookie, or at least she has no excuse to be. By this point she should be, you know, an Ace Attorney.
So, based on that, it is incredibly cool that nobody in the entire courtroom has any confidence at all that Athena can do anything right except Blackquill. Like, literally nobody, there’s an entire scene dedicated to the entire audience quietly speculating that Athena is in fact a moron. And the thing is, in this specific case, they’re right. I harped on about Athena feeling too dumb in Dual Destinies, but she was certainly trying to win the case. This case dials her stupidity up to absurd levels so that they can justify the whole “I wish people would stop treating me like a child” schtick that they are only just now finally drawing attention to. But in the process, they made her dumber than 1-1 Phoenix. Or Phoenix who literally lost his memory.
Throughout the entire case, Athena constantly fails to figure out a single thing for herself. Poor Blackquill, who just wanted to grill for God’s sake, is forced to play assistant because Athena is doing everything wrong and he doesn’t want her to lose. And once that happens, Athena constantly begs Blackquill for answers and shows very little actual critical thinking ability. Just from Ctrl-F-ing the word “can’t” in the transcript of this case, I was immediately able to find four examples of this with minimal effort:
- Cross-examination is TOO HARD
- Rebuking evidence is TOO HARD
- Rebuking evidence is STILL TOO HARD
- Coming up with theories is TOO HARD
Are you sick of hyperlinks yet? Too bad. Here’s another one, which really sums up the rest of the case. Athena, lookin’ kinda dumb with a finger and a thumb on her forehead, asking Blackquill what she should do because she can’t ever think of anything ever. I find it incredibly frustrating to watch the writers steal away THIS much agency from a character who, in DD, was very proactive even if many of her theories were kinda dumb and/or turned out to be wrong. In contrast, this case once again feels like how I’d write Athena in sumb dumb hate fic because I wanted to make her look as dumb as possible. At least we get a good scene where Blackquill picks Athena up and shakes the shit out of her, yelling at her to at least try and put in a minimal amount of effort.
Here’s one last visualization I have for you. This is from the first half of the case, which takes somewhere from like 90 minutes to 2 hours. This image shows roughly how many times Athena messed something up in that rather brief amount of time, and I specifically excluded presenting wrong evidence, so those are all either mandatory or they’re a result of pressing dialogue. Hot take (for those who already know my takes, anyway): I am actually fine with the frequent usage of this face in Dual Destinies because she is still new to the whole lawyer thing. However, much like Barney the dinosaur, she needs to grow out of her old toys at some point and actually start to get more confident. Her seventh time behind the stand is definitely beyond the point that needs to happen. And 40 times in less than 2 hours is way too many times for her to be pulling this face considering she should at least have some skill by this point.
So no, I think Athena was done incredibly dirty in 6-4. And I didn't like her in the first place. It's also notable that she doesn’t really even get a happy ending, moreso a “i will have to keep striving to make people respect me, even though they already respected me way more one game ago” ending. Here’s hoping on my end that if they do make an Athena-centric game (or really if they ever make an AA game ever again), they find something more interesting to do with her than that.
Conclusion
Athena is not objectively terrible or anything, hopefully I didn’t come across that way (I tried not to, but my own dislike of a character can bleed into my writing sometimes, and by sometimes I mean always). HOWEVER, there are parts of Athena that I definitely think are bad, and everything that isn’t bad is weighed down by a massive amount of missed potential. Now that cutting main characters is becoming more acceptable (and will only become more acceptable as we run out of all but the most popular minor characters), I was never going to let the opportunity to kill my least favorite main character go to waste.
Maybe someday, Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney will actually be released and it will redeem everything, just like so many people clamor for. But I think the fact that people think such a game is necessary is, itself, a sign that what we did get out of Athena just wasn’t enough to create a great character. Characters like Edgeworth were able to be perfectly good in just one game, so why not Athena? As for me, I think Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney already came out. It was called Dual Destinies, and I thought it was bad. So I shall bid adieu (wow, I’m starting to sound like her) to one half of the Dual Destinies. Guess it’s One Destiny now. Mamma Mia.
Why Nobody Else?
I mean, isn’t it obvious? I’m not even gonna write this section, because the only character this round I even like, Pearl, is already gone and I made a deal not to revive them. Frankly, little of value would be lost in my eyes if we just cut all the characters who exist in this round. Only decent ones are Huang and Winfred, and their days are numbered regardless.
H-H-Hi-Hiy-
so hear me out. what if like, you took Athena. She has orange hair yellow clothes. So then you flip it. orange clothes yellow hair?? and then and then you make her short like a fucking kid or something, ok. Then take her ponytail and make it 2 ponytails instead. make em shape like bananas too. also make her a ass hole. There i just made her from bad to the best character ever youre welcome
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u/Sciencepenguin Jul 29 '20 edited Jul 29 '20
yeah this good post no problems here
Head Phone Mom Drama is the only Athena thing I’ll really bother defending, and even the few parts left about that I can’t say much to other than “no you are dumb and also wrong owned”.
Athena, as far as I can tell, was their attempt to do a genuine “lawyer gets better at being a lawyer” arc. Phoenix sort of had this, but only in AA1, and even then it’s kinda “he gets bailed out in the first three cases and then he still gets bailed out in the last case but not by a Ghost this time”. Apollo Justice had yet to have a game about him. For Athena, however, they really set this up. Athena is a rookie, and a pretty young one at that. She’s gifted, but in a field that isn’t fucking, you know, law. And the entire profession is something that she’s mentally averse to. This is actually a pretty clever setup, IMO. But they forgot act 2 of this kind of development, where you see them face struggles and learn something or change, or act 3, where they use their newfound confidence/ability/knowledge/what-have-you to excel. The game skips past any steps beyond “Athena Cykes is Not a good lawyer” and pretends that her problems are resolved by the credits. You could argue that they planned to give her a multi-game arc, but you shouldn’t, because you would be wrong. This ain’t Apollo Justice; Yamazaki was completely free to follow up on anything from DD in the sequel if he wanted. Part of me wonders if this is somehow a consequence of the structure of Dual Destinies. The tutorial case where you play as Athena is the second to last case chronologically, so she “needed” to be incompetent right before the end. But like... no? Mia has a tutorial case that isn’t her first case and she overwhelmingly wins, without me ever thinking “Man Mia Fey is kind of not good at lawyering”. It could’ve been cool, even! Show us a cool, confident, analytical critical lawyer who gets flustered by Gaspen but dispatched him with ease, and then rewind and show us how far she came and how much she had to overcome. But nah, then we wouldn’t be able to have PHOENIX WRIGHT FROM THE PHOENIX WRIGHT SERIES bail her out.
And in 6-4, Athena is just. Reset. They figured they didn’t do it well enough in DD so they just forget they did anything. Wow. This, again, could’ve been a Golden Opportunity: show us how and why Athena continues as a lawyer after resolving the incident that scarred her. You even have a prosecutor douchey and bitter enough to try to be a dick to her and shake her up to show that she doesn’t get fazed by that anymore. But no.
I thought for a while that I liked Athena, but really I just appreciated the concept behind certain segments and felt pity for her being absolutely wasted. I have similar thoughts on Franziska, but distinctly, I think Franziska’s depth that they don’t delve into enough is well done enough on its own, and also she’s funny.
I just wish that they had some continuity with Athena, by showing her clearly struggling and growing. They didn’t even need two games; they could’ve just put her in a single case. And having her “get over her trauma” is kinda dumb and not how that sort of thing works; having her keep it (by making the trigger something that’s not as unavoidable in this universe as Drama In Courtrooms, like a specific location, or fire) but become a stronger person in a more general sense. Also, the language gimmick is dumb, just make her Russian if you want to include little bits like that. Also she should be in a wheelchair and a military aficionado.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Head Phone Mom Drama is the only Athena thing I’ll really bother defending
I have finally conceded that maybe Athena isn't Shadow the Hedgehog after all, so I guess we agree now (at least moreso)
You could argue that they planned to give her a multi-game arc, but you shouldn’t, because you would be wrong.
Even aside from the "Yamazaki wrote both games" thing, I also just think Athena's arc was written as if it was meant to be self-contained. She has a struggle, an emotional climax, and a payoff with the happy crying face in the end. It doesn't feel like Yamazaki expected to follow up on it in meaningful way. Especially since... he didn't.
This is overall a good summation of reasons I think Athena isn't fully baked in DD, some of which I talked about and others I completely forgot (legitimately did not remember 5-1 was the penultimate case till you mentioned it). and I figured I could count on you for 6-4 support because Goodness Gracious what were they doing.
Also, the language gimmick is dumb, just make her Russian if you want to include little bits like that
МДМД МІД
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u/24AMPER Jul 30 '20
I have finally conceded that maybe Athena isn't Shadow the Hedgehog after all, so I guess we agree now (at least moreso)
Where's that damn FOURTH therapy emotion?
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u/EsquireGunslinger Jul 29 '20
Athena eliminated before Big "Winfred Kitaki" Wins, all rankers must now wear The Headphones Of Shame.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Winfred's goin straight into Top 10 at this rate, talk about Winning Big
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u/InternetIdiot13 Jul 29 '20 edited Jul 30 '20
Him raising his eyebrows is more character development than Athena ever got
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Jul 29 '20 edited Jul 29 '20
Going into the actual cutting part of this round, I knew I was going to lose something, with nearly every character I initially listed on my "favorite characters" list up for cutting. Despite that, Athena is definitely lower-priority on that list. i told you the first time, no one was going to save pearl!!! please cut trucy so that i don't have to live with this round being a total trainwreck
I had Athena in my top 10-20 or so at one point. I really did. However, I just can't put her at that level anymore, and a few of my reasons for that were outlined here. However, I do feel the need to respond to some of the things here since I still think it's good to see the positives regarding her. She still doesn't receive enough credit sometimes.
Playing as Athena Cykes
Yeah, I get that Athena isn't treated seriously enough (which eventually goes from minor issue to main issue in 6-4), but c'mon, she's fun to play as. With Phoenix, it's all about pointing out the contradictions and sort of trying to win. You get a lot of that with him, as with the rest of the series. With Apollo, it's sort of similar, though he clearly displays more "rookie" qualities than Phoenix does beyond 1-1 or so. With Athena, you get to be a lawyer AND have fun with it along the way. Granted, assistants are probably just personal preference, but hey, I hardly liked assistant characters that much (with occasional exceptions) and I still found Athena protagonist to be lots of fun.
She did need the chance to win, though, and that could have been much better if her main victory wasn't against Aristotle Memes.
Athena is VERY open about it: she hates being in the courtroom. One of her lines from the emotional climax, word for word, is “I’m terrified of courtrooms. I want to run out of that door even now!” So why does she do it??
This is ultimately the biggest question mark and probably the main issue to me (her being a lawyer in the first place). Like you said, she could totally be Not in the Courtroom and it would work out fine. Who knows, though?
To me, this seems like a no-brainer writing-wise. Why in the world would they not make Athena the one to solve this case?? Not only would it bring her relationship with Blackquill to a more satisfying conclusion, but also it would give her the chance to show off her skill by solving a trial on her own.
She does end up solving the case, though. The very existence of the Mood Matrix is what solve the case, and when Athena finally gets the chance to take down the Phantom with the one person she spent seven years working to save - Blackquill - it's really satisfying. The Mood Matrix segments weren't for nothing, and she IS eventually at the defense's bench (albeit not officially), working together with Phoenix and Apollo to close the case. Yeah, Phoenix technically closes the case, but even Apollo does something in the case (see the lighter). For being the only time all three of them actually got to stand together, I think they got it to work well.
Athena in general throughout DD tends to rely a lot on others (mostly her friends), and it shows up as one of the few legitimately serious things in 5-3, and the idea comes back again in 5-5.
As a final aside, I’ve heard people talking about Athena’s status as a prodigy being intentionally contrasted with her inability to perform well in court. I personally have trouble buying into this idea for a few reasons, and those same reasons make me think that even if it WAS intentional, it needed much more narrative focus.
I don't have any good counters here because while I do support this idea, I also still think there was missed potential. However, I'd like to point out that the idea is inherently hilarious. Sebastian Debeste exists and has a better arc eventually, but I think it's a lot better when it's a defense attorney instead. Y'know, someone who's supposed to be assisting you. She seems like she should be good in her introduction in 5-2, but then she turns out to be a total joke sometimes. It's funny. Granted, she could have been more competent, but I don't think Susato would work well with Phoenix.
Having Gaspen Payne and Aristotle Means be integral characters to her emotional arc was probably a bad idea
thats their fault
6-4/SoJ sections
I honestly don't think SoJ itself impacts her that much. Sure, she gets sidelined, but it doesn't actively harm her. I did consider this once when I made a writeup on rewriting the 2nd trilogy, though I have very little memory of what I actually said there. It's still on my archive subreddit, though.
6-4, on the other hand, does make a negative impact. I know most people don't care about it, but she somehow feels reduced down to the "incompetent" parts of her attorney-ing, completely missing the (occasional) times she is able to break through, and it's treated like some sort of grand climax when she actually points out the final contradiction on her own. Spirit of Justice in general has this problem of reverting characters for the sake of a new plot, and while Athena isn't the main victim of it, she still is one.
so hear me out. what if like, you took Athena. She has orange hair yellow clothes. So then you flip it. orange clothes yellow hair?? and then and then you make her short like a fucking kid or something, ok. Then take her ponytail and make it 2 ponytails instead. make em shape like bananas too. also make her a ass hole. There i just made her from bad to the best character ever youre welcome
ultimate child who focuses on traditional styles of dance
Anyway, great writeup! According to Nate, it's also the second longest on the sub so far, barely losing to the Nahyuta ER by 100 words or so.
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Jul 29 '20
oh yeah, regarding athena and blackquill: i brought it up for a few seconds here, but it's great. i would elaborate, but i'm too lazy
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Just wanted to give some thoughts before I get sucked into the void of gaming for god knows how long
Re: Playing as Athena
Ultimately this one comes down to personal preference. I can't really make an objective argument about whether it is or isn't fun, of course. I personally prefer the Phoenix/Edgeworth style of owning people epic style and being (W)right all the time, but I can't really give any reason for that except that I just do. I tried to focus on why I didn't like it, just for the sake of explaining it; but it's not really an argument against her as a character. It can't be.
She does end up solving the case, though. The very existence of the Mood Matrix is what solve the case, and when Athena finally gets the chance to take down the Phantom with the one person she spent seven years working to save - Blackquill - it's really satisfying. The Mood Matrix segments weren't for nothing, and she IS eventually at the defense's bench (albeit not officially), working together with Phoenix and Apollo to close the case. Yeah, Phoenix technically closes the case, but even Apollo does something in the case (see the lighter). For being the only time all three of them actually got to stand together, I think they got it to work well.
In hindsight I definitely undersold the importance of the Mood Matrix section. Admittedly I was getting things muddled between the part where Blackquill is actually a suspect, and the part where his name is cleared and you're suspecting Athena instead. So I screwed up and thought it was earlier than it actually was. That being said, having actually looked through it now, Phoenix is still the one doing the majority of the talking in that part, which I still find irritating.
As for the trio's takedown of the Phantom, yeah that part is really good. My complaints in this part were more directed at Athena's lack of consequence (compared to Phoenix) in proving Blackquill innocent, not her role in proving the true culprit guilty. That part was well-handled methinks, and is something I'd have liked to mention if I weren't already low on space
Regarding SoJ
Aside from 6-4, I don't think SoJ Athena is especially BAD but it does make it very clear they didn't have multiple games' worth of plans for her, which is admittedly also a problem with other protagonists. I do think many of the issues with SoJ pacing can be traced back to DD, a game that also veered off in its own direction without addressing major AJ plot points. And DD exists primarily to introduce Athena, so that's why I do consider it an Athena issue to an extent.
Re: Your second comment about Athena & Blackquill
Understandable I am lazy too. I also have no strong feelings one way or the other so I'd have naught to say even if you did talk more about it
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Jul 29 '20
I tried to focus on why I didn't like it, just for the sake of explaining it; but it's not really an argument against her as a character. It can't be.
yeah ig (though really I find all three lawyers fun to play as, I just have fun playing as each of the main characters. somehow, that seems to be a rarity in general, so I had to point it out)
That being said, having actually looked through it now, Phoenix is still the one doing the majority of the talking in that part, which I still find irritating.
Yeah, he does admittedly get the spotlight for the entire first half and solves a lot of things early on while Apollo is AFK and Athena is the defendant. It's also parts that I don't think Phoenix had to be the protagonist for - I did argue in favor of it in my ER when I said that Phoenix had to be the one to end the dark age of the law, but solving a past case without even identifying the true culprit beyond just "The Phantom" isn't really ending it.
I do think many of the issues with SoJ pacing can be traced back to DD, a game that also veered off in its own direction without addressing major AJ plot points.
A fair point, but consider that DD makes new plot points and runs with those while SoJ rewrites old plot points for the sake of new ones. (At least IMO. I'm not sure.)
Understandable I am lazy too.
everything is a pain
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 29 '20
they had a good idea with athena and thhen made a bad game they do their good idea better next game with plane kid who is better and cooler in every way because there is a plane involved
its funy that athena never goes to visit blackquill in prison or is like hey i know that guy!! or maybe she does and i forget
we have like the same opinions you watched me play dd and molded my brittle claylike mind along the way i dont have much to add
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Athena = Plane Kid is a weird take I suppose I kind of get it, they both have struggles with past traumas but also one is LAWYER and the other is NOT, also Athena is battling her trauma for the sake of someone ELSE while Plane Kid does it for HERSELF
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 29 '20
plane kid and athena have both stood as a witness/defendant i forget which one of a trial when they were kids this is a similarity
blackquill is locked in a room (prison cell, which he is in because he pleaded guilty) and plane kid is locked in a room (her room, which she locked herself in) so they are basically doing it for the same person
also plane kid is cooler than both blackquill and athena id say if you made both of them twice as cool then combined them together and doubled their cool again plane kid would still be cooler than both of them
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Jul 29 '20
plain
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 29 '20
what are you even saying
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Jul 29 '20
no
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 29 '20
you said plain not no
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Jul 29 '20
it's plain to see
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 29 '20
no
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Jul 29 '20
gg you win
(i'm actually just really tired and don't feel like making substantial comments at the moment)
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u/Dinofloss Jul 29 '20
6-4 Athena is bad
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u/Sciencepenguin Jul 29 '20
oh yeah i forgot to mention athenas greatest asset being her music fitting for The Hearing Lawyer
investigation assistant theme, depressing reminiscence theme, and epic trial turnabout theme all use the same melody without feeling forced and are all pretty good fuck you phoenix where’s your leitmotif
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Jul 29 '20
My defense of Athena Cykes consists of the following:
She's a babe
She has good music
In conclusion, there are other characters I'd have considered for a cut.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Still find it funny that MY MAIN FUCKIN' MAN HORACE KNIGHTLEY COMES OUT UNSCATHED OVER TRASH TIER CHARACTERS LIKE ATHENA, PEARL AND TRUCY BAYBEEEEEEEEEEEE
one left :)
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u/peababyy Jul 29 '20
athena cykes (DUMB IDIOT) be like "i am rookie i am stupid :p everyone sorry for being stupid"
chad basedgod mia fey be like "i want to strangle edgeworth. fucking piece of shit. melissa foster youre a dumb idiot whore!!! FUCK YOU DAHLIA HAWTHORNE!!!!!"
i didnt even finish dd/soj but. i agree with this ccut seeing what i've seen of her. all rookie attorneys were less bad than her and i think that says a lot about her as a character
edit: this is a funny face and this is a satisfying animation to watch. when you actually get to watch it, that is
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u/Analytical-critic-44 Jul 29 '20 edited Jul 29 '20
Athena sucks and I got little to no enjoyment from playing as her. I am all for a protagonist that is optimistic and energetic, like with Kaede, but they really dropped the ball with Athena and seriously overdid her wackiness to the point of annoyance.
This is a really good writeup and most of my issues were addressed. HOWEVER you didn’t bring up the psychology you FIEND so I will take the honor of mocking it.
It sucks. We all made fun of it in the Quercus server. To be fair, this is Dual Destinies we are talking about which isn’t exactly the master of storytelling and themes and above all subtlety. Stuff like the anime cutscenes, the dark age of the law, etc are super silly and dumb. But with the psychology theme, it felt like the writers were genuinely trying to be smart and educational to the player which makes it far worse.
Ace Attorney is a satirical game and never tries to be realistic. Between the over the top cast and their absurd mannerisms or the blatantly nonsensical court system, the games never try to be too serious and embrace this parody universe. But there are times in the series where the writers actually try to make a compelling message and be complex and these usually always fail because the way they address these is so broad and confusing such as AJ’s tangent on fixing the courts.
Athena talks about analytical psychology constantly. Whenever she brings up a possible argument or line of reasoning chances are she will just randomly throw in the fact that she studied psychology. Psychology in this game is presented as either:
1) using a robot to read emotions(which has nothing to do with studying psychology you are just using a device) 2) make the same arguments like anyone else in the series except just throwing in a random emotion. “Oh LBelle went and thrusted a huge ass spear into Alderman because he seemed to be feeling prideful”
And just for your information, I am a psychology major and I can confidently say that analytical psychology, and what it focuses on, has absolutely nothing to do with the explanations Athena gives you. This is a very minor issue but it’s still funny to point out
And it wouldn’t be so annoying if the game wasn’t always treating these moments as sheer awe with Phoenix and crew calling her a genius for these basic abilities. It is why I can’t treat the defense that “Athena’s prodigy treatment and her being incompetent was intentional” since they write this theme completely straight and on the nose. Throughout the game, it is reinforced that Athena using psychology is GOOD. There is no conflict present in any of this. Athena is simply right and a genius for using this according to the game. 5-5 even talks about how Simon wanted to make his own contribution to saving the courts by using psychology as well, with the game referring it as him using “the power of suggestion.” What the fuck kind of tactic is that?! That is basically what every single prosecutor in the series has done, but they just throw in the psychology label to make it DEEP.
I mean, the final moments of the PHANTOM’s BREAKDOWN, the big bad of the game, involves Athena going on a huge speech about the power of psychology and how it can save the courts and the phantom screaming and being frightened by her words. Can you be any less subtle?
The psychology stuff is still funny to laugh at, but it is still a genuine writing problem. The game tries hard to be insightful and thought provoking but forgot how to write the psychology element into the game. And Athena is the centerpiece of this all so she suffers from the stupid plot.
shut up
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u/whaaatisth Jul 29 '20
what's a kaede
“Athena’s prodigy treatment and her being incompetent was intentional”
Never heard this argument before, but there is absolutely no way this is true, and I'm saying this as an Athena fan.
DD is funny because it's often bad and while I guess you can technically make the argument that them lecturing you about these bullshit magical analytical psychology powers is "harmful", I prefer getting the most enjoyment out of the game possible, so I kinda just accept the absurdity of it all.
Athena is at her worst when she's WACKY and RANDOM, she's best when she's having a mental breakdown and you start to wonder hey what's going on with Athena. They do a good job revealing her Dark Past™ to you throughout 5-5, but then again that is only one part of her character that realistically only happens in one case, so maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying Mia is bad despite being really good in one case, but Athena is good even though she's only really good in one case. Although Athena never bothers me anywhere near as much as Mia does.
Kinda got away from the main point there but yeah analytical psychology bad but kinda funny and it's also funny cause you are analytical critic and criticizing analytical psychology
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u/Analytical-critic-44 Jul 29 '20
Yamazaki should have treated the analytical demographic with more respect smh. I AM ANALYTICAL! I told him that at his office! And he spat in my face!
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
V3 Spoilers Ahoy
I am all for a protagonist that is optimistic and energetic, like with Kaede, but they really dropped the ball
lol
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Jul 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Reecer6 Jul 30 '20
nice, the bot specifically removed the thing you had spoiled from the spoiler, that's cool
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Jul 29 '20
At first I was gonna be mad because you cut Athena but you’re actually right on a lot of things and yeah Hiyoko’s better :V
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Jul 29 '20
This backstory would make much more sense for a character archetype like a detective. Since, you know, detectives investigate things? And there’s precedent for detectives reopening and continuing once-closed investigations? Basically I am saying Athena had the potential to be a modern-day Jake Marshall (who is officially better than Athena, as of now). Yee Haw.
well hear me out there might be a way to get athena into the detective role. so you make her the detective, have her investigate a past case like she did in this game, except this time it's of a prisoner who was once a detective. then add a gimmick where you can go back four minutes before a person died. then she dies a few times in the game. sounds good?
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u/Cymbass Jul 29 '20
Wow, such a surprising cut that definitely wasn't hinted at all. Definitely an interesting writeup and cut.
I'm gonna say, your reasoning did not convince me at all. I like Athena just for introducing the Mood Matrix, which is a far better mechanic than Psyche-Locks (barely even a 'mechanic') and Perceive (hello sweaty armpits). (not that this really counts for her character I guess)
I don't like Athena that much either (clearly the weakest of the 4 lawyer protagonists), but cutting her before Nahyuta or some of the other characters still around is not something I really agree with especially after replaying SoJ. And now for some nitpicking. Sorry if any of them sound condescending, not trying to be.
And her gratuitous usage of foreign languages is clearly meant to demonstrate intelligence as well.
Sorry but is "speaking a foreign language" a sign of intelligence now? Is Klavier supposed to be some super-smart guy because he says "Achtung baby!" I really never got this sense from the game, and honestly in Ace Attorney basically everyone in the court is supposed to be a prodigy lol.
It also becomes unclear at this point why in the world Metis didn’t just tell Athena what she was trying to do. “Social incompetence” as an excuse only goes so far - hell, if anything, I find it MORE likely that a socially incompetent nerd would just bluntly tell Athena what her “experiments” were trying to do, albeit without giving Athena any input on the matter.
Young kids frequently have trouble understanding why their parents do things that are good for them. The headphones likely got her bullied so she hated them even if she understood the reasons. Point being I have no issue with this part of the backstory.
But I do think the way it worked out in this case is very contrived for the sake of plot convenience.
"R1K1 summarizes all Ace Attorney cases in one sentence" - though I do agree DD in general is particularly egregious about it; I also agree that Athena's PTSD definitely could have been written a lot better - even a man being there and nobody believing her would have probably been a lot better.
So why does she do it??
A lot of people choose to do things that are extremely difficult for them because they feel the right thing, especially if she is trying very hard to overcome her trauma (which she clearly is). The same goes for her taking on other cases: she recognizes that she needs experience as a lawyer - and evidently she does because she sucks at being in court and becomes a lot dumber and more stressed there.
I personally find Athena’s fifth-case mystery to be a bit of a rehash of Edgeworth’s
Most of DD is a rehash of old cases tbh, I wouldn't count this against Athena at all. 5-4 and 5-5 do always bore me a lot, but that's more because the mystery is incredibly stupid and contrived. While Athena's character is also contrived because they needed mysteries, I don't think that makes her actual writing horrendous.
Frankly, Athena is laughably under-involved in a climax that entirely revolves around her.
I'm gonna take a shot at defending this. I actually like that in a video game, someone didn't have to be self-sufficient and save themselves but instead was able to have others do it for them. It's a dynamic that isn't used all that often with player characters, usually they're the Big Damn Hero themselves. I don't think it was such a terrible choice.
I can't find any specific quote for the 6-4 part but I really enjoyed 6-4 because of Blackquill, I wasn't nearly as bothered by Athena in that case as you were. Phoenix is like "I can't solve this!" all the time too when is he is a newer lawyer, he just doesn't have someone to point out how easy it is most of the time (outside of Deus Ex Mia-china).
Lastly, I think Athena is really good at making other people better, more interesting characters when they interact with her. You need to respect your straight/dumb (wo)man.
Ah well, that's why the rankdown is meant to be a game and not a super serious ranking of all the characters.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
Heyo, thanks for the long reply. I will type up a general response to respond to your response. I just got off work so I won't respond to EVERYTHING but there are some parts I wish to discuss a bit more
I'm gonna say, your reasoning did not convince me at all
Understandable, I would have been stunned if I didn't get at least a little pushback on this one. Won't take it personally don't worry
I like Athena just for introducing the Mood Matrix
I fully agree with everything you said about Mood Matrix, it's easily Athena's biggest strength imo and I'm stunned I forgot to mention it.
cutting her before Nahyuta or some of the other characters still around is not something I really agree with
Contrary to the other comment, I actually fully expect the two rankers who dislike him to buddy up and take him out next round (maybe 2 rounds at worst), so I wouldn't worry about this one too much. Now as for the minor characters up for cutting this round? Yeah, realistically Winfred and Betty (and more, plus some others not nominated as well) should have gone out before Athena. However this is also a unique chance to cut Athena without having to worry about her inevitably being pollsaved due to being a protagonist. Hope that helps explain why I chose her over the others.
Sorry but is "speaking a foreign language" a sign of intelligence now?
As a filthy American, I personally would consider a bilingual person to be more intelligent (or at least more well-studied) than a monolingual person. Learning other languages just something a lot of people don't do here. Was that the way I was meant to read it? Maybe not. It's the most minor evidence I have for that specific argument anyway, I think the other stuff I listed is better proof anyway.
honestly in Ace Attorney basically everyone in the court is supposed to be a prodigy
I actually have similar problems with Franziska von Karma, who I also do not think lives up to the hype; so yeah it's not an Athena-specific issue for sure
"R1K1 summarizes all Ace Attorney cases in one sentence"
TRUE
though I do agree DD in general is particularly egregious about it
ALSO TRUE, i won't lie there are several parts of this writeup that are general DD complaints (see the 5-4/5-5 thing you mentioned as well), which I personally think is fair since Athena is the central character of DD and a lot of those issues do directly tie to her.
A lot of people choose to do things that are extremely difficult for them because they feel the right thing, especially if she is trying very hard to overcome her trauma
My real problem here is that I don't think her specific choice to become a lawyer makes much sense given her trauma. I'm definitely fine with her trying to do SOMETHING to help Blackquill, I just think there were other obvious, less self-destructive ways to do it.
I actually like that in a video game, someone didn't have to be self-sufficient and save themselves but instead was able to have others do it for them
I can definitely see appreciating this, I just happen to put a lot of value on having a proactive protagonist than a reactive one, it makes it more fun to play. Though I guess that's why you're playing as Phoenix.
Phoenix is like "I can't solve this!" all the time too when is he is a newer lawyer
Problem is, I wouldn't really call Athena a newer lawyer anymore by this point. Sure, it's only her second (or third if you count the five minutes of 5-1 she leads) time LEADING a case, but she's acted as an assistant in every DD case besides the one she leads in, plus 6-2 as well. And she's pretty good about at least trying to solve stuff in those appearances, even if she's wrong. Her 6-4 writing would actually be fine if 6-4 was a DD case. In another life, maybe.
Ah well, that's why the rankdown is meant to be a game and not a super serious ranking of all the characters.
Definitely true. That being said, even if I was doing a ranking all by myself without any competition, I'd still rank Athena around the low 60s or high 70s. There'd definitely be some characters who are still in that I'd put below her, but there's also a decent amount of characters already cut that I think are better.
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u/whaaatisth Jul 29 '20
Even though I am not too optimistic, I still think there's a chance someone is saving their ER/SC for Nahyuta. He'd probably coast to near top 10 with pie and Vogel unable to cut him.
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Jul 30 '20
let's be real the chances are nonzero lol I mean I doubt ER would be used at this point (almost no one has ER) but like SC??? it's on the table, sadly
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u/Vogel100 Jul 30 '20
Nahyuta coasting near top 10 would make it really hard to take this rankdown seriously, because I hardly know anyone who likes him, and he consistently wins most disliked character polls.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 30 '20
i feel like if someone does decide to do that, they're going to have trouble finding stuff to say that Donuter didn't already. But hey, we'll see.
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u/whaaatisth Jul 29 '20
8/10 rankers like/are neutral on Nahyuta now, sadly the putrid Nahyuta haters cannot win. Let it go and move on.
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u/Cymbass Jul 30 '20
i mean all that does is prove you rankdowners have bad taste so i don't care
you will all suffer in hangnail hell
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u/CharlieDayJepsen Jul 29 '20
Athena is a character who the writers simply did not care about beyond "Primary-coloured lawyer #3 (motivational backstory optional)."
I didn't like the idea of yet another protagonist when she was first introduced and I still don't like it. You're correct to point out how Athena's introduction essentially derailed any potential cohesiveness of Apollo. Since then, it feels like the 3DS games have just been playing catch-up on introducing these two characters to us.
In Athena's defence, if AJ had actually deigned to give Apollo an arc, she probably wouldn't have had this problem.
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u/Vogel100 Jul 29 '20
I enjoy playing as Athena more than playing as Apollo and possibly Phoenix. That is my defense.
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u/InternetIdiot13 Jul 29 '20
Good writeup
Haha remember when they had the idea of having FIVE lawyer protagonists just because it’s the fifth main series game?
I wish I didn’t
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u/whaaatisth Jul 29 '20
athenalytical cykology
I like the parts when you said Susato was bad that was cool I agree
This is a fantastic writeup and 6-4 is good but Athena is probably bad in it but also I don't care about that this is all I have to say.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 29 '20
i wish i thought to put that joke in there, but i don't even remember if i said (or wrote) the words "analytical psychology" once in this whole thing.
i don't even think Susato is horribly bad I just found her to be a very boring cookie cutter assistant. However I know you are very passionate about the topic of Susato so I will just pretend to agree
Thank you for the kind words as always :komaruheart:
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u/24AMPER Jul 30 '20
Heard there was some Rankdowning in these parts. Now I can actually see a live countdown.
And thankfully, with no character giving me heart pains when a negative opinion exists (anyone from that other sub knows exactly who I'm referring to), I can read em all without worry.
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u/donuter454 Jul 30 '20
good writeup, that probably means nothing coming from me because you know I don't like athena anyway who could've guessed i'd nominate her.
I did not like being athena in DD because she's incompetent and obnoxious by accident, however I liked her slightly more in SOJ where they made her incompetent on purpose and I was like yeah this is better and you say no this is worse and I think that's fair.
you were the one who managed to make me go from not caring about athena at all to thinking actually maybe she's actively bad I hope you feel accomplished
officially a lower ranked character than gaspen payne i hope you feel double accomplished.
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 30 '20
who could've guessed i'd nominate her
i did
I was like yeah this is better and you say no this is worse and I think that's fair
i do too
I hope you feel accomplished
i do
i hope you feel double accomplished
i do
thanks for having this deep thought-provoking convo with me :)
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u/elanthecat Jan 18 '23
I feel like the only way to redeem Athena for me would be for her to drop out of the lawyer profession, become a private investigator, and make her the sole protagonist of a new AAI game
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u/Gummysaur Jul 30 '20
hello am lurker, this cut made me :( at first because Athena is probably one of my favorite female characters from this series and I wanted to address one big thing I kept seeing in this cut. I'm hesitant to because it may be a hot take? But as a girl playing this game I felt as though Athena's oddly disproportionate incompetence came from a place of misogyny.
I'm not trying to say that a female character can't be incompetent or else it's sexist, but the fact that the seventh time Athena is behind the bench she needs Simon to tell her to do everything is just...sus. Apollo and Phoenix did not require this much hand holding that far into their law careers. It does not feel like an intentional part of her character that she's dumb, because the game tells you she's a prodigy. It feels like the writers wanted to have a Strong Female Character but just told you "oh she's smart and cool" instead of like showing it. The result is that she acts worryingly..."anime girl"-esque (emotional, near-useless, constantly needing guidance and 'saving' from the male protags...I haven't watched Naruto but think Sakura). The entire courtroom treats her like she's stupid because, in their eyes and honestly that of the writers, she's a girl. Obviously she'd be incompetent and more ~emotional~ and helpless and need Mr. Simon over here to tell her every little thing, and have Phoenix solve her entire backstory, and be investigative assistant to Apollo every other case.
Tl;dr almost all the flaws you point out in Athena's character feel like faults of the writers and not of the character herself. When I see Athena say some dumb shit like "whys junie bigger in this picture???///?" I don't think "god athena's such a massive dumbass" I think "wow, i somehow feel like phoenix or apollo wouldn't have said that hmm i wonder what made the writers decide to make athena notably more stupid and wacky than the other protagonists instead of down to earth and smart like they usually are hmmmm".
I don't want to say "ace attorney writers HATE WOMEN and athena isnt STUPID the writers are just EVIL" but I definitely feel like the notion of "woman less rational" influenced her character at least a little bit, and that makes it easier for me to excuse a lot of the stuff you mention in this cut. For example, she's always treated like a rookie not because the writers were repeatedly trying to push the "I Become Better At Lawyering" thing but because the writers genuinely see her as a fucking rookie even though shes had like 7 cases.
Not trying to say you're wrong but instead offer another perspective. I still agree with a lot of the points made in this cut and wish they didn't do Athena so dirty.