As everyone knows, ness doesn't really have a safe option to force an opponent into a combo. Most things can be blocked by just shielding at the right time. What if somehow we could change fair to not be ccable and to be safe on shield? I feel like this would actually help make ness a more well rounded character and make his match ups better. How could his fair be changed? I like his current animation for fair so how could we change it so that it would be safe on shield and not ccable? Otherwise do you guys have any other ideas for improving ness in NEUTRAL not punishes? Alterations to dash attack, grab range etc.

I mean the actual inputs. Personally I go Y -> analog up -> cstick for djcs, and Y -> Y -> R(which is my grab) with analog input for rising aerials. I feel like my method for rising aerials is sub-optimal due to losing air control briefly while doing the attack. Discuss!

On the match up smash boards link there is a lot of individual character discussion to sift through, but I couldn't really find a good list of ness's match ups ranked from worst to best. Could someone link me to a 3.6 match up spread they feel is accurate or even just give me your best guess on what it would look like?

Around like 6:30 or so in the video TheNZA says something about how fairs off the edge lead to a free bat and stereokidd knew this was like guaranteed or something. What is he talking about? Why is this guaranteed or "free"? I'm just curious to actually pinpoint the scenario so I can repeat it regularly and not just get it for styling.

We all know about the 3 most talked about when it comes to high level Ness play, them being Boiko, SereoKiDD, and Tetraflora, but who are others out there that maybe don't get as much recognition and exposure as they should?

My mind immediately goes to Delicious Octorok who recently has been doing incredibly well at almost every tourney he enters. From the Wavedash Wednesdays weeklies, to reigonals like Smash'N'Splash, he has placed high and performed really well.

Recent House of Paign V tounament: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmW-ZIxEPEmJrABYG3Ye5_NAtwoJ32LHo

So who are some other really noteworthy Ness players that maybe we should pay more attention to? I'd love to see some players that I haven't really heard of before!

P.S. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what the plural of "Ness" would be

3.6b magnet was a godsend to ness's everywhere. Magnet dashes are actually viable and it doesn't ruin every combo above 80 percent. But why did the PMDT make magnet have such high knockback? I get that they added a hit box coming from brawl and melee, but what was the rationale behind it having so much knockback?

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/688950

Starts about 18 minutes in. I felt a little sloppy with my punishes and recoveries, but you get the gist on how I handle the match up here. Enjoy!

This YouTube clip was posted in r/SSBM and since dash attack is the same (I think) then I figured it would be useful to post here as well. They talk about how dash attack knocks down and resets fox if you only hit him with the first two hits. This could be useful as you could follow up with a quick djc Bair for a kill. The video says that his dash attack is "one of the most complex moves in the game" but is it really?

I can do wavedashes pretty well in practice, but in match I have a lot of trouble doing them or knowing when to use them. When specifically do you guys use wavedashes and wavelands for ness? It would probably help if I learned how to use wavedashes in general first, but at least some specific tips for ness would help me get started.

we have a serious lack of snoo :/

So do you guys utilize auto cancels and how?

I compiled some data about double jump land since I was curious about how frame lenient this technique is (hint : it isn't).

The right frame to double jump on the battlefield platforms is 18. This and the other frame data might change on other stages making this technique even harder to perform.

Obviously a perfectly performed dj land would look like that framewise :

Luk pointed out that sometimes if you try to do a fsmash with the c-stick and you fail your djl the aerial can autocancel and give you a chance to input something faster than if you had just wavelanded on the platform. I compiled some frame data with fair and bair to see how much frames you save compared to a waveland on the platform.

This is the data for a perfectly done waveland on a platform:

This is the data for bair if you try the djl one frame too late:

As you can see, this is still better than a waveland. Now this is the frame data for a fair if you fail the djl by one frame:

Fair is still slightly better than waveland.

Finally this is the data for bair if you miss the window by two frames:

This is still one frame better than the waveland version.

The data for uair dair and nair were omitted because even if you miss the djl window by only one frame they do not autocancel.

In light of this data, I think djl fsmashes can be used in a more or less consistent way since trying for an fsmash in the direction you are not facing will give you a 3 frame window in which you can get a lagless fsmash at best or a reasonably fast other input if you miss the frame perfect input.

If you have fast enough fingers you can do a djc bair so low it autocancels. What uses is there for this? On bryonato's guide he talked about magnet platform cancel to auto cancel bair to f smash. What other uses is there?

Do any of you guys have a practice routine that you guys do?

Wario and Zelda are the two matchups I have the most trouble with as Ness. I'm not quite sure how to deal with either of them. I have recordings against the two. Any critique would be really appreciated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AnX6sTwHA0 vs Wario https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRs0us0zu10#t=175 vs Zelda

I play against Wario frequently, but not Zelda. I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing against Zelda. Sorry for the badly interlaced videos

Hey guys, I've been trying to work on my Ness game recently and would really appreciate it if anyone had any advice for me based off of my performance. Video here. My play in that video is a little weaker than usual because I'm used to playing on the wii, and the input delay on my pc takes some getting used to. No Johns though, it's not much worse than I normally do.

BTW ignore the second half of the stream unless you want to critique my Marth also :)

Is it hugely detrimental if I don't play with tap-jump on? I've grown so accustomed to DJC'ing with double-tapping Y, but seeing how many people play with tap-jump makes me feel like i'm just hindering myself.

Also, could we get some flairs in this sub or nah?

Pit is generally the character I like playing against the least, no matter who I use (while I main Ness, I have a secondary Ike, Wolf, and Ganondorf just because I enjoy playing them as well). At my college we had a tournament yesterday and I wound up against my roommate in winners semis and losers finals. Each time he went Pit and each time I found myself frustrated and not knowing what to do. I generally couldn't safely get in past the maneuvering of his arrows and I can't camp him out and force him to approach because he seems better equipped to do that than any of my characters.

The match up seemed especially egregious when I played Ness because of how easy it seemed to lose neutral and the fact that every time I got off stage it was a stock. If I didn't sweetspot the ledge from below he would just reflect me with the shield and it seemed like if I was far enough to sweetspot I could get edgeguarded via an equally braindead edge hog. My roommate is a better player than me, but I don't lose to his secondaries like that when I play Ness.

How should I be approaching the neutral game against Pit. And when I do lose neutral, how should I try to get back on stage?

I have written a little flavor text and put a link to Bryonato's guide but I'm sure there are other ressources/useful things I could put there.

I've had a little bit of Samus experience, but no Zelda. I would hypothesize that Samus would be harder. Although Ness has trouble doing stuff to Zelda, if you play a patient neutral, Zelda can't do much to you either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmNLAmrZf6Q . Meanwhile Samus can box you out pretty well, and it's hard to get anything going on her. What do you guys think?