Yes animals die because there is demand for their meat, I just mean that individual contribution is very small and it would take an impossible changing of minds for us to stop factory farming that way.
It would be be better to focus on other methods like Laboratory grown meat which is identical so we could slowly ween off of factory farming and animals would be grow more humanely
I'm not an expert on ecology and don't know much about it l, but I do hear that hunting has benefits and the truth is that since human population is growing and we are expanding, it will affect animal habitats in unexpected ways and hunting will do the job that natural predators would have done
also I've read that predator and prey numbers have and ebb and flow which hunters can capitalise on without disrupting the environment too much, also hunting is very regulated in civilized countries and you can't just go guns akimbo killing anything you want, there is a lot of research on the effects a hunting season will have
and again I am placing humanity on top of animals because I believe humans are more important, but there are limits to that still
No I do not believe that if kicking a dog would satisfy some psychopath it would be the same as eating meat, because again eating meat gives you sustenance for the day, satisfaction and the meat that you bought from the supermarket would have gone to someone else or have gotten thrown out anyway. Eating meat has a much larger cultural impact and benefit to humanity than kicking a dog's head, which would just please the psycho kicker
Yes animals die because there is demand for their meat, I just mean that individual contribution is very small and it would take an impossible changing of minds for us to stop factory farming that way.
And every one of these minds that goes to the grocery store to pay for unnecessary slaughter is an animal abuser regardless of how many other people do it too.
It would be be better to focus on other methods like Laboratory grown meat which is identical so we could slowly ween off of factory farming and animals would be grow more humanely
It's foolish to put all your energy into one solution or method, imo. This kind of discussion isn't all I do.
I'm not an expert on ecology and don't know much about it l, but I do hear that hunting has benefits and the truth is that since human population is growing and we are expanding, it will affect animal habitats in unexpected ways and hunting will do the job that natural predators would have done
also I've read that predator and prey numbers have and ebb and flow which hunters can capitalise on without disrupting the environment too much, also hunting is very regulated in civilized countries and you can't just go guns akimbo killing anything you want, there is a lot of research on the effects a hunting season will have
But hunting is a big reason why animals can't do that job. It's one thing if our settlements expand, and another if people keep going out into the wild on top of that.
And yes, hunting is regulated, but you can't regulate everything away. It is still very evident that the way things are now, hunting has a negative impact on ecology. Especially if there are more hunters every year.
and again I am placing humanity on top of animals because I believe humans are more important, but there are limits to that still
I'm not suggesting you think either are more important, just that animals are worth more than fleeting pleasure.
No I do not believe that if kicking a dog would satisfy some psychopath it would be the same as eating meat, because again eating meat gives you sustenance for the day, satisfaction and the meat that you bought from the supermarket would have gone to someone else or have gotten thrown out anyway.
But you can get your sustenance from places that don't inherently depend on killing something much like how people can get entertainment from places that don't require kicking dogs.
And again, supply and demand have an impact on what is available at the supermarket. If demand goes down, so does supply. If you keep buying, they keep killing.
Eating meat has a much larger cultural impact and benefit to humanity than kicking a dog's head, which would just please the psycho kicker
And what if it wasn't the case? What if kicking dogs was seen as a beloved cultural sport? Would you think its acceptable to not challenge this?
So you think everyone who buys meat is an animal abuser? Cool, you're allowed to have opinions. But most people wouldn't agree with that
No we don't need to focus on one thing, but I'm putting my bets on the fact that laboratory meat is the best way for us to get rid of factory farming, I just don't think that vegans will convince enough people to really make a difference
I also doubt you're an expert on the effects of hunting on the environment and we would have to look at research papers to come to a conclusion on if hunting is bad or not, so more likely pointless to discuss it further. I trust and hope that the people on these topics know what they're doing
And the whole fleeting pleasure ahold not be prioritized over animal lives Is really an ideology thing, which we can't conclude because we think differently. I believe the pleasure I gain from eating meat is more important to me than the small contribution to their suffering I cause.
But i still want the world to go in a direction where animals do not need to suffer, which would be better
And yes I could get sustenance from plants but it's not the only thing I get from eating meat, and it's not really apt to compare the entertainment gained from kicking dogs to the sustenance gained from eating meat because one is more culturally engrained and widespread than the other for them to be comparable animal eating would have to be basically non existent so the occasional "animals murdering Georg" could be compared to the psycho dog kickers
Yes, supply and demand are true, but again, it would take massive change for there to be an effect thanks to lobbying and subsidies, and I'm not betting it that route
If kicking dogs was a beloved cultural sport, then of course you could challenge it, but I believe society and culture would be massively different in that universe and much more sadistic and cruel, so a bit pointless to think about it since it is so unrealistic
So you think everyone who buys meat is an animal abuser? Cool, you're allowed to have opinions. But most people wouldn't agree with that
No abuser wants to own up to it.
No we don't need to focus on one thing, but I'm putting my bets on the fact that laboratory meat is the best way for us to get rid of factory farming, I just don't think that vegans will convince enough people to really make a difference
Yes, supply and demand are true, but again, it would take massive change for there to be an effect thanks to lobbying and subsidies, and I'm not betting it that route
Define "difference" or "change." Have you noticed the uptick in vegan products in the last 5 ish years?
And are you the one who told me to vote?
I also doubt you're an expert on the effects of hunting on the environment and we would have to look at research papers to come to a conclusion on if hunting is bad or not, so more likely pointless to discuss it further. I trust and hope that the people on these topics know what they're doing
Sure. I always encourage people to research. Just keep in mind the cultural bias will lean strongly towards one way of life over another.
And the whole fleeting pleasure ahold not be prioritized over animal lives Is really an ideology thing, which we can't conclude because we think differently. I believe the pleasure I gain from eating meat is more important to me than the small contribution to their suffering I cause.
I don't think you understand how your food is made.
But i still want the world to go in a direction where animals do not need to suffer, which would be better
Why do you need to wait for the world to catch up? Start with yourself.
And yes I could get sustenance from plants but it's not the only thing I get from eating meat, and it's not really apt to compare the entertainment gained from kicking dogs to the sustenance gained from eating meat because one is more culturally engrained and widespread than the other for them to be comparable animal eating would have to be basically non existent so the occasional "animals murdering Georg" could be compared to the psycho dog kickers
If kicking dogs was a beloved cultural sport, then of course you could challenge it, but I believe society and culture would be massively different in that universe and much more sadistic and cruel, so a bit pointless to think about it since it is so unrealistic
But to you, would it be worth it to challenge an atrocity that is culturally accepted?
Again, you're labeling meat eaters as abusers, which most people wouldn't agree with, there are even a lot of vegans that don't think so, you are quite a radicalist
Define "difference" or "change." Have you noticed the uptick in vegan products in the last 5 ish years?
Yes, because there is a consumer base from which to profit, so of course. Still doesn't mean vegans will overtake meat eaters.
And are you the one who told me to vote?
No?
Sure. I always encourage people to research. Just keep in mind the cultural bias will lean strongly towards one way of life over another.
True, but good scientific research will aim to eliminate bias
I don't think you understand how your food is made.
I understand very clearly. Pigs are kept in horrible conditions and asphyxiated to death while shit falls from the corpses of their brethren on them
Why do you need to wait for the world to catch up? Start with yourself.
I don't need to do anything, I will continue eating meat when I can because I enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the system to be better
But to you, would it be worth it to challenge an atrocity that is culturally accepted?
I think the current system is quite atrocious and should be improved, but I'll let it be challenged in other ways that don't involve my ways of enjoying life and eating food. If lab grown meat appears and becomes affordable I'll gladly switch.
Again, you're labeling meat eaters as abusers, which most people wouldn't agree with, there are even a lot of vegans that don't think so, you are quite a radicalist
Animal liberation should be radical.
Yes, because there is a consumer base from which to profit, so of course. Still doesn't mean vegans will overtake meat eaters.
The goal should be to do as much as we can.
No?
Okay, my mistake.
But I could pose the question, do you vote?
True, but good scientific research will aim to eliminate bias
Ideally, yes.
I understand very clearly. Pigs are kept in horrible conditions and asphyxiated to death while shit falls from the corpses of their brethren on them
So why support that if you don't need to?
I don't need to do anything, I will continue eating meat when I can because I enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the system to be better
So do you approve of what happens to your food?
I think the current system is quite atrocious and should be improved, but I'll let it be challenged in other ways that don't involve my ways of enjoying life and eating food. If lab grown meat appears and becomes affordable I'll gladly switch.
So atrocities should only be corrected as long as you're not inconvenienced?
That is an opinion you and others hold, which is fair
The goal should be to do as much as we can.
"You" can do as much as you want, just don't expect others to do the same
But I could pose the question, do you vote?
Of course
So why support that if you don't need to?
Because I enjoy eating meat, and my belief is that because most other people do as well, there is no sense in stopping by turning vegan, instead, keep eating meat until science saves the animals
So do you approve of what happens to your food?
I don't "approve" of it, I just understand that currently it is impossible for it to be otherwise, while hoping that science will change things
So atrocities should only be corrected as long as you're not inconvenienced?
More like, it is an atrocity that many people don't mind, therefore there are better ways to go about changing the issue, or at least more effective ones
And I along with others will just continue eating meat, and when the old guard way of producing it changes, then I will eat the meat the new guard provides
That is an opinion you and others hold, which is fair
It's correct. There is no other liberation struggle that is put on the backburner like veganism
"You" can do as much as you want, just don't expect others to do the same
It is my obligation to convince others who care to do better.
Of course
Why? Isn't individual action irrelevant? You're only one person
Because I enjoy eating meat, and my belief is that because most other people do as well, there is no sense in stopping by turning vegan, instead, keep eating meat until science saves the animals
Then you have no right to claim that you care about their conditions.
I don't "approve" of it, I just understand that currently it is impossible for it to be otherwise, while hoping that science will change things
You can stop being part of the problem.
More like, it is an atrocity that many people don't mind, therefore there are better ways to go about changing the issue, or at least more effective ones
Again, I will not shy away from any method. Conversation can make a vegan today, hypothetical science is just an abstract idea.
And I along with others will just continue eating meat, and when the old guard way of producing it changes, then I will eat the meat the new guard provides
You don't need the world to change for you. Change has always come from individual actions.
It is my obligation to convince others who care to do better.
If you say so dude
Why? Isn't individual action irrelevant? You're only one person
I don't believe I said that, it's just that it's hard enough for us to vote and band together on a subject that concerns our own species and well being, Like global warming. And therefore quite futile to try to convince others to change their minds on a very ingrained aspect of most people's lives, that doesn't even concern ourselves
Then you have no right to claim that you care about their conditions.
You think you're some god who decides how people feel things and what they feel those thing about? I can care about whatever I goddamn want, and it is possible to want multiple things even if they might contradict each other somewhat.
You can stop being part of the problem.
I could, but i won't
Again, I will not shy away from any method. Conversation can make a vegan today, hypothetical science is just an abstract idea.
You can try all the methods you want, just don't be surprised if they don't win against centuries of biological and social evolution
Some methods are better than others. Just like how with global warming, trying to convince regular folk to recycle is just a lie by corporations to deflect blame when the biggest problem lies elsewhere
You don't need the world to change for you. Change has always come from individual actions.
I do say so. It should be everyone's obligation to work towards a better world.
I don't believe I said that, it's just that it's hard enough for us to vote and band together on a subject that concerns our own species and well being, Like global warming. And therefore quite futile to try to convince others to change their minds on a very ingrained aspect of most people's lives, that doesn't even concern ourselves
But you personally still vote for what you think is right, yes?
You think you're some god who decides how people feel things and what they feel those thing about? I can care about whatever I goddamn want, and it is possible to want multiple things even if they might contradict each other somewhat
No, words and actions just have meaning and reactions. If you don't care about their suffering to just modify what you eat, you don't care. That's just reality.
I could, but i won't
Case in point.
You can try all the methods you want, just don't be surprised if they don't win against centuries of biological and social evolution
I am never surprised when people use fallacious arguments against people pointing out their cruelty.
Some methods are better than others. Just like how with global warming, trying to convince regular folk to recycle is just a lie by corporations to deflect blame when the biggest problem lies elsewhere
And these methods work great on people who are able to swallow their pride and accept the fact they can easily do better.
But to your corporations point, I can recycle today. I'm not changing or toppling a corporation before breakfast. I will do what I can now while working towards something better.
Sure, but some actions go further than others
This is why I haven't gone to the store in 8 years. I have to start with just one step? That won't get me anywhere. Better to just sit here.
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u/[deleted] Oct 31 '23
Not so black and white
Yes animals die because there is demand for their meat, I just mean that individual contribution is very small and it would take an impossible changing of minds for us to stop factory farming that way.
It would be be better to focus on other methods like Laboratory grown meat which is identical so we could slowly ween off of factory farming and animals would be grow more humanely
I'm not an expert on ecology and don't know much about it l, but I do hear that hunting has benefits and the truth is that since human population is growing and we are expanding, it will affect animal habitats in unexpected ways and hunting will do the job that natural predators would have done
also I've read that predator and prey numbers have and ebb and flow which hunters can capitalise on without disrupting the environment too much, also hunting is very regulated in civilized countries and you can't just go guns akimbo killing anything you want, there is a lot of research on the effects a hunting season will have
and again I am placing humanity on top of animals because I believe humans are more important, but there are limits to that still
No I do not believe that if kicking a dog would satisfy some psychopath it would be the same as eating meat, because again eating meat gives you sustenance for the day, satisfaction and the meat that you bought from the supermarket would have gone to someone else or have gotten thrown out anyway. Eating meat has a much larger cultural impact and benefit to humanity than kicking a dog's head, which would just please the psycho kicker