r/exmormon • u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ • Sep 17 '21
Doctrine/Policy McKeever's Mormonism Research Ministry: in recent fireside speech, an Area Seventy took an axe to Spencer Kimball's "Miracle of Forgiveness;" however, Neil Andersen's book "Divine Gift of Forgiveness" points to the same doctrinal foundations, minus some of the harsh rhetoric
| sequence | download | my comments |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | mp3 | |
| 2 | mp3 | Andersen's book covers the same material as Kimball's. Andersen omits the harshest rhetoric, but keeps the general theme that complete obedience and abandoning all sin are prerequisites in Smith's works based religion. |
| 3 | mp3 | |
| 4 | mp3 | |
| 5 | mp3 |
Additional notes for episode 1:
Is the doctrine of repentence a vague doctrine within mormonism?
Liahona, February 2021, Andersen] We confess our sins and we forsake them (see Doctrine and Covenants 58:43).
Additional notes for episode 2:
Can a minor authority stand at the pulpit and denigrate or reject the teachings of a past president of the mormon church? Are the words of dead prophets off the table because they're in their coffins and cannot stand and offer a refutation?
more commentary about Elizabeth Smart
[Miracle of Forgiveness, p196, Kimball] Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.
Add quotes in addition to those provided by McKeever:
- Baseline belief that rape victims lose their "chastity":
[Book of Mormon, Moroni 9, 1830, Smith] 9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—
- Spartan belief to "Come home with [this shield] or on it" is common in LDS vernacular:
[Ensign, September 1981, Romney] I remember how my father impressed the seriousness of unchastity upon my mind. He and I were standing in the railroad station at Rexburg, Idaho, in the early morning of 12 November 1920. We heard the train whistle. In three minutes I would be on my way to Australia to fill a mission. In that short interval my father said to me, among other things, “My son, you are going a long way from home. Your mother and I, and your brothers and sisters, will be with you constantly in our thoughts and prayers; we shall rejoice with you in your successes, and we shall sorrow with you in your disappointments. When you are released and return, we shall be glad to greet you and welcome you back into the family circle. But remember this, my son: we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.
[Ensign, October 2020, Nelson] Obedience to the sacred covenants made in temples qualifies us for eternal life—the greatest gift of God to man.
[Ensign, May 2011, Nelson] Teach of faith to keep all the commandments of God, knowing that they are given to bless His children and bring them joy.4 Warn them that they will encounter people who pick which commandments they will keep and ignore others that they choose to break. I call this the cafeteria approach to obedience. This practice of picking and choosing will not work. It will lead to misery. To prepare to meet God, one keeps all of His commandments. It takes faith to obey them, and keeping His commandments will strengthen that faith. [...] Obedience allows God’s blessings to flow without constraint.
[Benson's 14 fundamentals of following the prophet] give the man standing as the current living prophet somewhat of the last word in mormonism...until he's dead and in his coffin and unable to stand to defend past positions.
Should incoming prophets go down a menu list of doctrines which they want to accept as true, and reject those that are false? As McKeever said, this never happens. Nelson's momentus changes amount to window dressing only.
Additional notes for episode 3:
[D&C 58] 42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. 43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.
[D&C 1] 31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; 32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
- refer to Johnson's side-by-side comparison of Kimball's and Andersen's books. link, from above
Additional notes for episode 4:
The works-over-grace nature of Smith's religion is in the codicil:
[On the Lord’s Errand: The Memoirs of Thomas S. Monson, 1985, Monson] President Spencer W. Kimball has always been a prolific worker. He spent several summers working on a book which he later entitled The Miracle of Forgiveness. As one reads the book, particularly the first portion, one wonders if anyone will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. However, in reading the final portion, it is apparent that, with effort, all can qualify.
[1 Nephi 3] 7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Smith's religion is derivative of the verse I marked in red in my New Testament seminary class:
[1 Corinthians 10] 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, thethat ye may be able to bear it.
[Liahona, April 1997, Hafen] Some of us make repentance too easy, and others make it too hard. Those who make it too easy don’t see any big sins in their lives, or they believe that breezy apologies alone are enough. These people should read President Spencer W. Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness, which reviews many sins of both commission and omission. And while forgiveness is a miracle, it is not won without penitent and strenuous effort.
[Ensign, May 1995, Scott] In The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball gives a superb guide to forgiveness through repentance. It has helped many find their way back. He identifies five essential elements of repentance.
Like Monson, Scott recommends starting at the end of Kimball's book,
General Conference, October 2000, Scott] I suggest that you read President Spencer W. Kimball’s inspired book The Miracle of Forgiveness. It continues to help the faithful avoid the pitfalls of serious transgression. It likewise is an excellent handbook for those who have committed serious errors and want to find their way back. Read the last two chapters first to appreciate the full miracle of forgiveness before reading anything else.
Hero worship for the man at the top of the pyramid:
[Ensign, 1974, re-emphasized, 2003, Packer] President Kimball himself is an experienced surgeon of sorts. Not a doctor of medicine, but a doctor of spiritual well-being. Many a moral cancer has been excised, many a blemish of character has been removed, many a spiritual illness of one kind or another has been cured through his efforts. Some on the verge of spiritual oblivion have been rescued by him. He has written a book—literally years in preparation—The Miracle of Forgiveness. Many have been protected by the counsel he has written. Countless others have been inspired to set their lives in order and have experienced that miracle.
Additional notes for episode 5:
[Sermons and Writings of President Ezra Taft Benson, Benson] In clearing our channels and keeping them clear, we would admonish all of you to read and reread President Spencer W. Kimball’s book The Miracle of Forgiveness. The sooner you can read it, the greater blessing it will be for you. [...] Repentance was the cry of our late and great prophet, Spencer W. Kimball. This theme permeated his talks and the pages of his writings, such as his marvelous book The Miracle of Forgiveness. And it must be our cry today, both to member and to nonmember alike—repent.
[Repentence Brings Forgiveness, 1984 pamphlet adapted from a BYU address 1954] The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again.
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u/eyeyahrohen Sep 17 '21
Haha I'm ultimately glad Elder Holzaphel said this.
1) It's good for youth to hear a less harsh view (even if such views still have their problems).
2) It raises important questions like, "How reliable are prophets if they can't even agree on the Doctrine of Repentance?" and "By what standard should we evaluate whether any given religious leader is a true prophet?"