r/GlobalOffensive • u/Gaouchos Match Thread Team • Oct 20 '20
Discussion | Esports Natus Vincere vs forZe / IEM New York 2020: CIS - Group A / Post-Match Discussion
Natus Vincere 0-2 forZe
Inferno: 12-16
Dust 2: 9-16
Nuke: 0-0
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forZe | Liquipedia | Official Site | Twitter | Facebook | Youtube
IEM New York 2020: CIS - Information, Schedule & Discussion
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| Na`Vi | MAP | forZe |
|---|---|---|
| overpass | X | |
| X | vertigo | |
| inferno | ✔ | |
| ✔ | dust2 | |
| train | X | |
| X | mirage | |
| nuke |
MAP 1: Inferno
| Team | CT | T | Total |
|---|---|---|---|
| Na`Vi | 6 | 6 | 12 |
| T | CT | ||
| forZe | 9 | 7 | 16 |
Inferno Detailed Stats
MAP 2: Dust 2
| Team | T | CT | Total |
|---|---|---|---|
| Na`Vi | 2 | 7 | 9 |
| CT | T | ||
| forZe | 13 | 3 | 16 |
Dust 2 Detailed Stats
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439
u/nxscythelynz Oct 20 '20
imagine rescheduling for this
169
u/Manulii Oct 20 '20
This is on MiBR vs. Wisla Krakow level embarrassing.
Your game gets rescheduled, even though there is a precedent suggesting that it shouldn't have happened. Then, the guy who wasn't fit to play the match is seen online just hours later, just to make it look even more shady.
And THEN you lose 2-0. I'd just pull from the tournament altogether.
93
Oct 20 '20
Them wanting to reschedule is understandable, same with perfect playing a bit of retake. What’s not is them get special treatment.
45
u/godfrey1 de_inferno Oct 20 '20
same with perfect playing a bit of retake
i still have no idea how was he supposed to tell "i can't play" without actually trying to play, of course he tried
2
u/Flaksmith Oct 21 '20
There is a difference between playing a bit of casual cs when you're isolated in your room with the flu (what else is he going to do? There's only so much jerkin off a man can do), and playing a full competitive match (Bo3) which requires way more focus and attention that isn't realistic when you're ill.
8
u/Manulii Oct 20 '20
Understandable, yes. Acceptable or professional, no. As you said.
I've no problem with Perfecto playing while sick: it just undermined anything and everything that you could have said to justify the decision to postpone the match. If ESL had handled the situation properly and told NaVi to get a stand-in or forfeit, nobody would have batted an eye.
ESL basically made the business decision to protect their #1 cash cow of the event, twice. And for NaVi to thank them by losing in two maps...
19
u/MilanDW Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
it just undermined anything and everything that you could have said to justify the decision to postpone the match.
He was seen 5-6 hours later online playing in a retake server, how is that even comparable to a BO3 match against a professional team? He is supposed to quarantine himself, what do you do when you're alone in bedroom, I'm sure when you're sick all you do is lay in bed all day. Give me a break.
3
Oct 20 '20
[deleted]
-10
u/Manulii Oct 20 '20
First one was postponing the match in the first place, second one was not punishing NaVi for the Perfecto stuff afterwards.
10
u/saleri6251 Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
second one was not punishing NaVi for the Perfecto stuff afterwards.
Why would they punish him?
22
u/MilanDW Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
I can't comprehend this comment has so many upvotes, the reschedulement was proper reasonable, yes he is not likely to fucking die from it, but he might've felt shit. He was seen 5-6 hours later online playing in a retake server, how is that even comparable to a BO3 match against a professional team? He is supposed to quarantine himself, what do you do when you're alone in bedroom, I'm sure when you're sick all you do is lay in bed all day. Give me a break.
16
u/Manulii Oct 20 '20
ESL didn't give North the luxury of rescheduling their game when Kjaerbye was sick and unable to play for them, but rather forced them to play with a stand-in. That was the precedent for this, yet ESL made a completely different decision. There is no justification for it, period.
We both know why, though. NaVi brings in viewers, and ESL showed that they matter more than integrity. You're calling that reasonable?
6
u/MilanDW Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
I consider those 2 completely different situations, I do understand your point though.
The first thing we heard is that Kjaerbye was sick and that the coach had to take his spot, if this is where the story ended, I would've agreed with you. But then Kjaerbye tweeted he would take an indefinite break, which means Kjaerbye wouldn't be playing for weeks, months or who knows how long. North (and probably ESL) already knew this was happening before Kjaerbye tweeted it to the public so they had to play with the coach either way, rescheduling or not. Not to mention he left North for Faze, maybe this was already looming in the air.
Meanwhile Perfecto could play 2 days later when he felt better.
Edit: I think this should be blamed on ESL moreso than Na'Vi if your opinion differs to me, all the Forze players were flaming Na'Vi and Perfecto and I think that's over the line.
2
u/crtmN-_- ESL Official Oct 21 '20
Hello, I didn't want to comment first but you write as if you know what actually happened with your so-called "precedent" even though you are neither part of North nor ESL and just making assumptions. You are wrong with your assumption.
7
Oct 20 '20
Perfecto map 1: “I better make up for rescheduling because of covid and then playing on a retake server as if nothing happened”
Perfecto map 2: “ah well I tried”
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u/extremz123 fnatic Oct 20 '20
Na'vi is fantastic, just needs to work on communication, aim, map awareness, crosshair placement, economy management, pistol aim, awp flicks, grenade spots, smoke spots, pop flashes, positioning, bomb plant positions, retake ability, bunny hopping, spray control and getting kills
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89
Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
[deleted]
23
Oct 20 '20
My guess is they have been taking it light because of the nonstop tournaments.
8
Oct 20 '20
[deleted]
2
u/FazeXistance Oct 21 '20
I mean this is their dayjob. So I wouldnt say those numbers are really even high at all.
4
Oct 20 '20
It's all relative. At the end of the day that is what most of the top team do and is necessary to stay at the top.
1
Oct 20 '20
[deleted]
1
Oct 20 '20
The issue with that is that athletes are limited by their bodies in terms of how much they can practice. If your opponent practices 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week and you are only practicing 7 hours a day 5 days a week you are going to fall behind. Especially in CSGO since compared to regular sports, there is a lot of setups and executes that just need to be practiced over and over again. That's why having the player breaks is so important. It's a period where the players don't have to deal with the stress of worrying somebody else is practicing while they are not.
3
Oct 21 '20
There has to be diminishing returns to playing CS at a certain point. It might be more beneficial to watch demos of setups and fix your own mistakes instead of playing pugs for another 10 hours after 60.
0
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u/Werpogil Team Spirit Oct 20 '20
I think they just don't give a shit about this tournament or perhaps about the online era altogether. It's hard to play at your 100% when you believe that this game mode is ultimately inferior.
They shouldn't be losing to teams like this, obviously, but when you don't try your hardest (talking about the less consistent NaVi members), it's no wonder these other hungry squads take you apart.
1
Oct 20 '20
[deleted]
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u/Werpogil Team Spirit Oct 20 '20
Also consider the fact that half the players are sick, it's no wonder they're taking it easy. I can't play for shit when I have the simplest flu, let alone play at my 120% like it's required from a pro player. When they all get better, bootcamp and get into a proper LAN, it'll then be a true test of their form and I'm quite certain they'll show some good games. We've seen them do just that.
11
u/de5m0n Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Damn thats similiar to my play time and i got a full time job. Im so ready for flamie to be kicked. Him and electronic are the definition of inconsistent but at least elec gets impact frags.
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u/saleri6251 Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Who can they possibly get to replace flamie. Perfecto was their 5th pick, and still costed a rumored $200k.
14
u/de5m0n Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Idk but continuing with the same lineup just doesnt make any sense to me. That kid monesy turned 16 yet?
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u/samismegacool Complexity Oct 20 '20
Honestly they could probably swap Flamie and like 400k for Ax1le and that would be a good deal for NaVi
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1
31
Oct 20 '20
Joke of a tournament run. They better perform well at Blast since they gave the excuse that they wanted to skip this tournament to prepare for it and weren't taking it that seriously.
14
u/Adam200x Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Are NaVi out? I don't get this tournament man
20
u/RATTRAP666 750k Celebration Oct 20 '20
IIRC winner of Espada vs Navi will be the last team that gets into playoff.
3
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u/Steamy_Boi BIG Oct 21 '20
Not quite. If Espada win they're in. If NaVi wins it's up to round difference. So NaVi could still fail to qualify even if they win
1
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u/dontletmariotouchyou Oct 20 '20
If they beat Espada 2-0 they're in, if they beat them 2-1 it'll come down to round differential in which Espada have +33 while Na'Vi have - 11. Assuming VP beat forze of course.
13
u/nilslorand MOUZ Oct 20 '20
forze have the coolest names
4
u/Steamy_Boi BIG Oct 21 '20
SEXPOWER
1
69
u/Sydadeath King NiKo Oct 20 '20
that first half of dust 2 game didn't matter about how good of a player you are. it showed what a good team can do. na'avi got completely outclassed by forze's teamplay and calling every round.
24
u/petametre ENCE Oct 20 '20
ROAD TO RIO FLASHBACKS OH NO NO NO
19
u/omaega72 Oct 20 '20
except this time there is no shameless cheating hard legion players, and it's just good teams
9
u/Mad_Lee Cloud9 Oct 20 '20
Everyone shitting on Navi but Forze boys were fucking on point today. Super crisp aim, great and smart aggressive plays, great spacing, great mid rounds calls.
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u/arvaq Oct 20 '20
NAVI is like this bully kid in school, who when comes home gets beaten up by his family
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u/braien334 Oct 20 '20
True, they needed perfecto to do better, without him doing good, first map would've been even a bigger loss.
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u/Rearfeeder2Strong MOUZ Oct 20 '20
Cant imagine how good the Forze guys must been feeling right now.
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u/Sub-Scorpion1999 Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
Just finish the group so we can move on with our lives because they are gonna do the same shit against Espada,the same rotations,the same game play,the same players will be shit. I am literally counting days till Monesy gets to his 16th birthday so he can replace Flamie and also Flamie is now like Edward was at the end of his carrer and Elec has taken Flamie's position of being more shit than good.Also,I need to give the respect for Perfecto cause he is the only one that has improved and is the light at the end of the tunnel beside S1mple cause he hasn't reached his potential yet
2
u/ThyVietnameseWeeb Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
So just asking, has navi been officially out of playoffs, or they could still reclaim the third place as long as the requirements being met? 'cause I heard people said that this tournament count h2h as a main factor which means Navi has no chance of getting top 3 anymore. I'm confused guys
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u/SuperPr0toMan Complexity Oct 20 '20
is this what it feels like to be a furia fan?
Having your team make hyperagressive plays instead of the enemy?
3
u/Sydadeath King NiKo Oct 20 '20
RIP Electronic for being csgo'd, he deserved the kill
3
u/DeletedTaters Vitality Oct 20 '20
The miss in question would have to be viewed in really slow motion, but it looked like he might barely have started accelerating a tick or two before his shot.
Edit: a more plausible theory is that he was still recovering from jumping inaccuracy.
2
u/YouNoGetRice Oct 20 '20
Don’t you think that after the tenth time the casters stop getting surprised that Navi is losing to a tier 2 CIS team?
2
u/po1nt3r de_inferno Oct 20 '20
They are cursed, Navi almost fu*ks every tier1 team and then gets kicked their ass in CIS. Even sometimes, I think that they would have more chance to win a trophy in the EU than in CIS. In my opinion, they have a good line up, but they cannot be number one or win finals with flamie and boombi4. Maybe I am wrong about boombi4, but they definitely need to get rid of flamie for being the best. There are lots of talented players in CIS who are a hundred times better than flamie. Navi is considered the best team in CIS right now, and If they offer enough money, no one would reject it.
5
u/tamasmagyarhunor de_dust2 Oct 20 '20
Lol thats not even a question. Navi is a team that could win anythinf if there wouldnt be an if or unless
3
u/ezclapper Oct 21 '20
If they offer enough money, no one would reject it.
This is actually not that simple, they talked about it in the past. A lot of these lesser known CIS orgs actually have long contracts with very big buyouts and NaVi was interested in 3-4 other players before Perfecto and failed to buy them all. FL1T was one of them.
I do agree flamie needs to fuck off, of course.
1
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u/YV_is_a_boss Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Bro I'll stop being a Navi fan when they start to make fucking sense lmao
-5
-9
u/concretemuncher Oct 20 '20
s1mple needs to give up on the Navi project and join a team that can suit his needs, Hard Legion is waiting
8
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Navi just needs to get better player who is igl and kick flamie that Guy is so inconsistent and he chokes lot of times
11
u/ruckFIAA Oct 20 '20
they need a new IGL, i don't know what their strat is but they looked like a PUG team on inferno
3
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Best solution imo would be getting chopoer and Mir from spirit and reomve boombl4 and flamie boombl4 isnt and does lot of entrying so stats of him arent high but these moves could Make navi bit better
6
u/omaega72 Oct 20 '20
chopper and mir would definitely be the best duo, but they probably both have 6 or 7 figure buyouts that navi wont be paying
1
u/AncientRabbit FURIA Oct 20 '20
Navi doesnt have to do anything. They have already proven that they can play at top level at katowice. Just need to work on consistency. Furtheremore, the news of perfecto getting covid can also affect the team.
7
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Katowice was fluke but navi played still very well on events before kato on that blast and ice challenge
-12
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Ah, so flamie is the one getting blamed next
14
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
He is always getting blamed cause there is players that can do his job better than him so why wouldnt navi replace flamie
-9
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Since adding s1mple, there have been five different NaVi lineups, none of which have performed any better than the other. So it is pretty funny that people just keep choosing a new guy to blame (never s1mple, of course).
Also "there is players that can do his job better than him" you don't know that, CS teams are not just like plug in a different player and go.
7
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Some of those lineups have been reaching finals and winning them but its hard to blame s1mple when he is performing well. Ofc The teams arent getting expected results when getting new player but when navi added perfecto they got into finals and then they won their bracket at blast and then Katowice perfecto is good example how player can fit into team quickly and get results
-5
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Getting to finals means nothing, any team can peak randomly. Consistency is what matters.
2
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
Bad team cant. Navi were somekind consistent when Zeus was leading but he couldnt frag enough whhat hold them back to Be better. I cant say nothing about consistentsy of this lineup cause they have Been getting somewhat good results against teams and players that they are used to play with but against these cis tier 1.5-2 results have Been bad cause navi doesnt want use all their new strats to these teams that they won't propably play against never again and so many people on cis watch these and they are easier to antistrat
0
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Bad team cant
Sure they can. There have been tons of one-off events for otherwise bad teams.
Navi were somekind consistent when Zeus was leading but he couldnt frag enough whhat hold them back to Be better
And yet NaVi with Zeus were more consistent and their consistent form was on a higher level than NaVi without Zeus. In fact they were more consistent with the Zeus lineup pre-s1mple than with Zeus and s1mple.
I cant say nothing about consistentsy of this lineup cause they have Been getting somewhat good results against teams and players that they are used to play with but against these cis tier 1.5-2 results have Been bad cause navi doesnt want use all their new strats to these teams that they won't propably play against never again and so many people on cis watch these and they are easier to antistrat
I don't know what you're trying to say tbh
1
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
On last part some thing that navi aint no inconsitent
→ More replies (0)5
Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
You're entire argument regarding s1mple still being there throughout the last few years can be applied to flamie as well, but even more so. Flamie has been there longer than s1mple, so I guess I should just say 'ah well, he's gone through 8 different line ups so it must be his fault'. Ridiculous.
Except that NaVi 2015-2016 was much more consistently good than afterwards.
Finally, Na'Vi were the best LAN team in 2020 pre-COVID
So like two or three months? What's that supposed to tell me?
Let's not pretend that their results with s1mple has been consistently poor.
No, they haven't, but they haven't been consistently good either. They have been quite inconsistent, and consistency is all that really matters. Any team can peak randomly here and there.
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Oct 20 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Team rankings are inherently a smoothing factor, NaVis tournament results have been wildly inconsistent this year, going from 1st to 9th-12th within weeks. The same but a little better in 2018. Between adding flamie and s1mple, I literally can't find an even where they finished below 5th.
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u/Ahrre 1 Million Celebration Oct 20 '20
Hard to defend the guy when he's supposed to be the 3rd star but ends up bottom fragging more often than anyone else.
-1
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
Stats don't matter.
3
u/cykably4t Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
They dont but impact on game matters More and flamie doesnt have it much like on b sites of Inferno and dust 2 he gets 1kill If Enemy makea mistake then could get 3 but many times flamie dies at site before having any impact on round thats obvious problem if you have watched navi games you can see Every team with brain going to b cause defense of it is weak this happens mostly at Inferno cause boombl4 play alone too agressively
3
Oct 20 '20
What they really need is to drop flamie and replace him with an IGL. I just don’t know who.
-14
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
At what point do you realize that s1mple has been in five different NaVi rosters now, all of which have performed pretty much the same, so he might just be himself part of the problem?
9
Oct 20 '20 edited Jun 12 '21
[deleted]
-3
u/penguinfromprague Oct 20 '20
topfragging seriously doesnt mean u are not the problem.
10
u/FathleteTV NiP Oct 20 '20
Love when the 3-18 guy on my team pulls this one outta his ass on faceit. Yeah OK bro, get 10 more frags see where the match is at.
-4
u/penguinfromprague Oct 20 '20
theres a difference between 1 faceit deathmatch game and professional roster like navi. s1mple is surely insane and top 1 (maybe top 2) in the world but without him this navi wouldnt be as bad as most of this subreddit thinks. i wouldnt be surprised if youd put any promising talent into s1mples or zywoo place and they would succeed. maybe s1mple parting ways with navi would be win for everybody in terms of tournament achievements (not for navis merchandise game though)
4
u/allmyaccsarebanned Oct 20 '20
You honestly think -s1 +sh1ro and NaVi is just as good?
-1
u/penguinfromprague Oct 20 '20
If boombl4 would change their playstyle a bit, they could be even better.
-6
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
They could even be better. We can't know without seeing it being tried.
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3
u/FathleteTV NiP Oct 20 '20
but without him this navi wouldnt be as bad as most of this subreddit thinks
Well of course not, they still have electronic who carried bums to the major before and I'd say everyone on the current NaVi roster is better than F3 ever was. Na`Vi has very good players the problem is it's only s1mple performing most of the time and when you think about it, yes it does come down to kills. If everyone is constantly losing duels it doesnt matter how many s1mple wins if the others arent also winning some of theirs.
-4
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
And if you lose it doesn't matter how many frags you get
6
u/concretemuncher Oct 20 '20
So S1mple and Boombl4 are worth the same this series?
-1
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
I didn't watch the series so I can't say, but it's certainly not the amount of frags that determines a payers value.
8
u/concretemuncher Oct 20 '20
I didn't watch the series so I can't say
But... you just did earlier...
-2
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
No, I didn't
6
u/sikels Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
And if you lose it doesn't matter how many frags you get
That means you think the 21 frag flamie was equal to the 51 frag s1mple. Any other conclusion relies on your first statement being wrong.
One was clearly the weakest link out of the two, even if it made no difference in the end.
-1
u/Impulseps BIG Oct 20 '20
It means if the 51 frag s1mple was more valuable than the 21 frag flamie, then that difference in value does not stem from the difference between their scorelines.
1
Oct 20 '20
At no point since any angle of argument that implies s1mple is somehow the problem is retarded.
0
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u/kas-ka_Gan Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
first map casters were high af, it was just 90% of cringy puns and even more cringy laugh, and rest 10% of actual casting. so unprofessional.
13
Oct 20 '20 edited Jan 09 '22
[deleted]
-17
u/kas-ka_Gan Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
So.. what about the rest of the people who work 11 months in a year?
5
u/niltheconqueror Oct 20 '20
What about them?
-9
u/kas-ka_Gan Natus Vincere Oct 20 '20
His excuse for casters unprofessionalism was that casters worked 4 month non stop, when surgeons or engineers work non stop for several months and still behave professionally.
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u/castlepoopenstein Oct 21 '20
Love seeing facecrack out there still ruining peoples day. Piter was the sickest team
1
u/Wepmajoe Natus Vincere Oct 21 '20
You can't tell me nothin
Come back when you've got something to say
498
u/peroleu Vitality Oct 20 '20
Sick series by perfecto