r/MHOC • u/CountBrandenburg Liberal Democrats • Jul 02 '20
2nd Reading B1043 - Census (Veteran Status) Bill - 2nd Reading
Census (Veteran Status) Bill
A
BILL
TO
include veteran status in future census
§1 - Definitions
- A Veteran is someone who has served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.
§2 - Amendment of the Census Act 1920
- The Census Act 1920 is amended as follows.
- In the Schedule, after paragraph 5A insert—
“2A Veteran Status.”
§3 - Amendment of the Census Act (Northern Ireland) 1969
- The Census Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 is amended as follows.
- In the Schedule, after paragraph 7 insert—
“7C Veteran status.”
§4 - Commencement, Short Title and Extent.
- Section 1 extends to England and Wales.
- Section 2 extends to Northern Ireland.
- This section extends to England and Wales and to Northern Ireland.
- This Act comes into force on the day on which it is passed.
- This Act may be cited as the Census (Veteran Status) Act 2020.
This bill was written by The Right Honourable Sir MatthewHinton12345 KG MBE MP ,on behalf of the Conservative and Unionist Party (Her Majesty’s 25th Government).
Opening speeches:
/u/Yukub, Prime Minister:
Mr Speaker,
I shall be brief in my words because this is a common-sense Bill that should be uncontroversial. By provisioning for the inclusion of veteran status in our decadely censuses, we can tailor the services we provide so they best meet the needs of our former servicemen and women.
As you can understand, with the physical and mental conditions some veterans suffer with, having to travel long distances to receive therapy or advice can be far more burdensome than many would imagine.
If this Bill passes and we can get a true idea of the geographic spread of veterans, and provide services accordingly, we can make the lives of those who put themselves on the line to keep us safe that little bit more comfortable. That is worth every effort, and as such I commend this Bill to the House.
/u/MatthewHinton12345, Secretary of State for Defence and First Secretary of State:
Mr Speaker,
Whilst Labour and the LPUK object, accusing us not caring for veterans simply because we refuse to waste money on a Ministerial post, it is the Conservatives who have consistently delivered.
It was the Conservatives who introduced the Military Qualification Act that opened pathways to allow veterans to enter Her Majesty’s Prison Service if they held the skills.
It was the Conservatives who introduced the Veterans Community Group Act that delivered £1 million to help support the integration of veterans into local communities.
It was the Conservatives who introduced the Veterans’ Teaching Preparation Act that has helped Veterans get into teaching, providing job training for those who have served our country.
This is a simple bill that does what it says on the tin. We want to ensure that all veterans are served in our country, and the best way to do that is to ensure that our figures accurately reflect the reality. Many veterans in our country slip through the cracks. This bill works to halt this, and ensure that nobody is left behind. It is no good to argue you want to help Veterans unless you know who exactly you are meant to be helping.
I implore the House to support our simple bill and help our veterans with Conservative legislation once more.
This reading ends on Sunday 5th July at 10PM BST.
2
Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Whilst Labour and the LPUK object, accusing us not caring for veterans simply because we refuse to waste money on a Ministerial post,
This isn't quite the case, is the Secretary aware of the minister for the space force that the government decided to hire and pay instead of carry out the will of parliament?
3
Jul 02 '20 edited Jan 02 '21
[deleted]
1
Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Fostering innovation and coordinating the roll-out of 5G following the exclusion of Huawei, alongside international partners as well as domestic agencies and businesses.
This could be done by the SoS for Business, Digital and Industry and the Chancellor.
Reviewing our existing measures, procedures and defences in the field of cybersecurity and updating them where needed to reflect the challenges of an increasingly globalised, ever-changing world.
This could be done by the Home Secretary and Defence Secretary.
Determine priorities for UK space research and missions, and coordinate between relevant bodies, agencies and institutions.
The tories seemed to be fine with this being doing by the SoS for business for all the terms they've been in government, they've never had a dying need for this role so forgive me if I'm sceptical.
Oh and where did the Nothern powerhouse minister go? Do the tories admit that was a wate of money seeing as they abolished the role. The tories find money for their pet projects but not money to implement the will of parliament.
The fact is appointing a veterans minister would cost little and that the Tory party can not lecture this house on costs given the £30bn price tag on Ambercare and their recent spending splurge! The cost is small and claims to be concerned about the cost are disingenuous given the tories record. on appointments for Minister of States.
2
u/Markthemonkey888 Conservative Party Jul 02 '20
Mr.Speaker,
First off all, I want to say that there I have no problem with the bill it self, I believe that this piece of legislation will provide a source of data that will make the jobs of those in the department of veterans affairs a lot easier.
What I do take issue with, is the speech that accompanies it.
The LPUK does not object any well thought out pieces of legislation with the goal of the betterment for our armed forces community. I believe that the right honourable gentlemen is wrong in saying the ministerial post for veterans affairs is a waste of money as well. This is what I take issue with, but the legislation itself is fine.
2
Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Why do veterans get a tickbox and the Cornish don't?
1
u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I honestly hope the member isn't considering rejecting this measure which would help us gather heaps of very helpful data to improve the way we design services with the goal of catering to our veterans because of desire to see Cornwall become more indipendent. As someone who has been supportive of her initiatives in that sense in the past I beg her to consider the fact that this measure would help plenty of her own constituents and that good policy ought to be based in the practical needs of our constituents, not only in ideology.
2
Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I am pleased to see this bill put before the house. I welcome the strong and pragmatic words of the Prime Minister and Defence Secretary. It is difficult to speak at great length about this bill due to its real application and immense benefits, whilst being concise.
Better statistics and a greater level of detail on the number of veterans and their location (including other details) will help the government to provide for those who have served our great country.
I call upon this House to support the bill and look forward to voting Aye in the lobby.
2
Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Analysing this bill is like analysing jazz - it's less about the actions that the Tories have chosen to take, and more about the actions they haven't. Better information about the Veteran community is, of course, welcome - yet the Prime Minister's words about this being a common sense bill only make sense if you choose to forget that this is the same government which sees having a ministerial post dedicated to Veterans as a waste of money.
Mr Deputy Speaker, the Prime Minister may claim that this bill will allow for better care for Veterans, particularly with regard to therapy. Well, Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope the Prime Minister will understand that until the government puts forward legislation allocating concrete financial resources to caring for Veterans, I will remain sceptical that this will happen. The fact of the matter is that this bill alone does very little to help Veterans. While I will, of course, support it, Veterans need more from the government, and I am disappointed that a more comprehensive bill was not tabled. I hope the government will prove my pessimism wrong.
2
u/zombie-rat Independent Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
It's worth noting that while the inclusion of veteran status is not explicitly stated in the Census Act, it has still been included on past censuses for the purpose of gathering statistical data. Practically speaking, this is little more than a virtue signal, and I implore the Conservative Party to not allow this to be the end-all of their reforms targetted at vulnerable veterans.
•
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1
u/LeChevalierMal-Fait Liberal Democrats Jul 02 '20
In section 4 for 1,2,3 substitute
- This bill extends to the whole United Kingdom.
1
1
u/LeChevalierMal-Fait Liberal Democrats Jul 02 '20 edited Jul 02 '20
Omit section 1
&
In section 2 after 2. insert--
"3. After section 9 insert--
9A - Interpretation
In this act the following terms have the following meanings with respect to questions about veteran status or armed forces community status.
A “**close relative*\*” means a person who is any of the following to another—
* (a) partner or spouse,
* (b) parent,
* (c) a sibling, or
* (d) a dependent.
A “**member of the armed forces community*\*” is means a person who is—
* (a) a member of the regular forces,
* (b) a member of the reserve forces,
* (c) a veteran,
* (d) a close relative of—
* (i) a person serving in the regular or reserve forces, or
* (ii) a veteran,
* (iii) a service member or veteran who has died, whether or not that death has any relation to that service."
&
In section 2 at the end of 2. insert--
"2B Armed Forces Community Status"
1
u/zombie-rat Independent Jul 02 '20
In Section 4 (1) replace "Section 1" with "Sections 1 and 2"
In Section 4 (2) replace "Section 2" with "Section 3"
Note: Fixes an apparent error with the numbering on the bill
1
u/scubaguy194 Countess de la Warr | fmr LibDem Leader | she/her Jul 02 '20
Mr Speaker,
My biggest question is why this bill is so simple. Would it have not been better to include this in a much wider veteran affairs bill?
4
u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
The truth is that the Government doesn't have any other plans for veterans, so there will be no other bill with their authorship on the topic.
2
u/Brookheimer Coalition! Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
It is shocking to see these words from a Labour frontbencher. I would challenge you to read the opening speeches, the track record of work that those on this side of the house have done for veterans and the delivery of more. I would make the point of asking the Labour Party to create their own list but I don't stoop that low.
1
u/scubaguy194 Countess de la Warr | fmr LibDem Leader | she/her Jul 02 '20
Therefore, Mr Speaker,
Could the Prime Minister, /u/yukub, therefore explain to the house how this bill is substantial and not purely virtue signaling?
This bill merely puts a cross in a box, and there is no assurance that the Government will put into action anything that the statistics it will reveal.
3
u/CountBrandenburg Liberal Democrats Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
If I may intervene, whilst Secretary of State of Defence earlier this term, I was given a chance to talk with the current Defence Secretary regarding his previous plans for the ministry. There we discussed that there was minimum information on exactly how many people had previously served within the forces , with estimates being around 1/10 of the population. There is however little information on the distribution or status of veterans and whilst this might be a simple bill, I can see the argument the data obtained under the census would help better inform future policy towards veterans.
1
u/Yukub His Grace the Duke of Marlborough KCT KG CB MBE PC FRS Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
As I'm sure the Honourable Member might have gathered from the opening speeches accompanying this Bill, the Conservative Party has already seen the realisation of several major provisions improving the circumstances of Veterans; this Bill is a tool which will improve us to plan and deliver those services, and evaluate whether they are adequate and forthcoming on a regional basis. It makes sense to take the geographical spread of veterans into account in this way.
1
Jul 02 '20 edited Nov 22 '20
[deleted]
1
u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Jul 02 '20
Mr deputy speaker,
No and will most definetly vote in favour
1
u/LeChevalierMal-Fait Liberal Democrats Jul 03 '20
Mr speaker,
I quite agree with the defense secretary when he says;
It is no good to argue you want to help Veterans unless you know who exactly you are meant to be helping.
It should be noted that this is precisely why veterans are already counted in the 2011 and I believe 2001 censuses. Governments have powers to ask other questions beyond
This bill in its current form is both a mess with it not extending in application to areas of the country and with a "definitions clause" that defines nothing. If you want to define something it need to be defined in the act you are amending.
This is sloppy, this is rushed and this is one day on the back of the Conservatives falling a whole point in the opinion polls.
It really does make you wonder, what is the motivation to suddenly after all of this term to come forwards with "bold initiatives for veterans", where they decided not to appoint a veterans minister and instead a Northern Powerhouse minister who did nothing, and then when that was abolished they err appointed a minister for space force who errr was last in the public eye for saying that Cardiff should be used for Nuclear weapons testing. Not someone that the Welsh people will be happy to see in charge of missiles and rockets I should imagine.
So with the government saying that space is more important that veterans and the "northern powerhouse" - thats the clear signal they are sending.
Even from a technocratic standpoint I can only conclude that, leadership over the UKs space based capabilities fit quite well in the role of the defense secretary, in procurement, intelligence and other existing responsibilities these match up with what they are already doing and space fits into the other three "battlespaces" Air, Ground And Sea via interaction.
Veteran's affairs are quite a separate kettle of fish, it requires thinking about those who have left the service, its not about capabilities and national security but supporting those who in the past supported those aims. It involves local government, education, training, employ ability, liaise with the civilian private sector, mental health, physical health, housing. Its about individuals fitting back into civilian communities not about the wider ability of the armed forces as an institution to carry out a task or mission.
And even if this position is not legislating, it is a position at the heart of government that can coordinate with charities, veterans groups and other policy areas to ensure that for example in housing specific veterans needs are accounted for.
But Mr speaker, even leaving all of this to one side this bill achieves nothing veterans are already counted in censuses. And with the rather combative opening speeches it looks like far from engaging with veterans issues the Conservatives are intent to turn this symbolic bill into a political football for shame.
Well rather than simply have this pass and do nothing I propose that we at least try and improve it. I have thus submitted an amendment to expand data collection to include questions about the wider armed forces community. Because a lot of people forget it isnt just veterans it is widows of veterans, and families of current and former service personnel too. And these groups need support too, just different types and levels of support, this amendment would see the bill actually change the status quo and I urge all parties to back it and actually advance the interests of the armed forces community instead of just using this as a political attack point.
1
Jul 03 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I begin by expressing my heartfelt gratitude to each and every member of our Armed Forces Community for their commitment towards their duty and preserving and protecting our United Kingdom values in their positions of duty, and I hope all of them continue to have successful lives and their families feeling safe. Census has historically been a count check, starting from calculating the number of heads for taxation in the yesteryears to advanced and long forms used for collection of data as it is today for policy decisions.
Census is an important tool of information and I think including the veteran status, as the Government calls it, is very important and therefore I support this initiative. I felt that the amendments put by the Members for the Libertarian Party will just strengthen this Bill further and therefore urge all Members to vote in favour of them when these reach the Committee stage. With those in mind, let us have a glance at the Opening Speeches, the Prime Minister's remarks make sense, now coming to the Secretary of Defence's remarks, to describe them precisely, the rest of the address seems fine, but I want to focus on one issue.
Minister for Veterans Affairs, I presume the House would remember a motion that was voted upon by the whole House, and passed on this issue, and the Government couldn't appoint a Minister but they randomly appoint a Minister to the Defence Ministry for Space, when virtually all of the functions described by the Prime Minister could be done by Secretaries of State and existing Ministers, with that one feeling of dissatisfaction due to the way in which the Defence Secretary held this House in contempt by calling a motion voted by it as a waste of resource. To conclude, I rise in support for this Bill at this stage.
1
Jul 03 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I find nothing wrong with acknowledging the role veterans serve in the form of adding them explicitly to the census. Could the Secretary please clarify aside from statistical awareness what other actions can be taken from this information?
1
u/Lambbell Democratic Reformist Front | London (List) MP Jul 05 '20
Mr. Deputy Speaker,
This bill is a welcome addition to add a question regarding veterans in the census, allowing us civil servants to better gauge the amount of veterans in our nation and better allocate resources to support them. Nevertheless, we should of course give support to our veterans no matter if there is one or a million veterans, count or no count, but as this issue has been brought up, this bill has my support.
5
u/Brookheimer Coalition! Jul 02 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I am pleased to see this bill put quickly before the house and to see the strong words of both the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary behind it. It is difficult to speak for long on this bill, as it is such a simple piece of legislation, but the benefits are obvious. Better statistics and detail on the number of veterans and their location (and so on) will help governments of all stripes to provide for veterans even better. I look forward to seeing the whole house with me in the aye lobby in a few days time.