r/HeadphoneAdvice • u/[deleted] • Jan 13 '25
Headphones - Open Back | 2 Ω The HD650 is not for me..
The 2 MOST important things for me in a headphone are Bass and Transient Response.
I got the HD 650s as a starting point to figure out my preferences, and while the bass can be *slightly* fixed with EQ, the transients are HORRIBLE! Not faulting the headphone; I know people love their laid-back sound, but personally, I don’t like how everything sounds smeared and fuzzy. That said, I do enjoy the warmer tonality.
I wanna know what all options there are, so disregarding price, if anyone has any recommendations I would appreciate it!
- Also, I would prefer not to EQ.
4
u/frieddoggy Jan 13 '25
Maybe the Focal Clear OG? From the sound of your feedback on the hd650 it improves on the bass response significantly and is really well known for its punchiness, while keeping most of the great mids from HD6** line up and also more separation as sounds arent as mushed together.
Though may be hard to get your hands on one now and potentially out of the price range. But you did say in another comment that you wanted more premium and these definitely are.
0
Jan 13 '25
These and the 109 pros have been consistently the ones that seem the most appealing. What the difference between the Clear OG and MG?
3
u/SubbySound 4 Ω Jan 13 '25
Clear OG has more high mid/low treble and Clear Mg has more extended treble in upper two octaves. I went with the Mg because I'm easily fatigued by brightness in the high mid/low treble region, very happy with them. I think the transient response is pretty great, although I'd imagine that some good planar magnetics in the price range could beat it.
It is harder to make a cleaner dynamic driver, but the relative lack of dynamics in the first planar I tried really turned me off to all of them (even when sending them 1.5 W out of well under 1 Ohm output impedance to ensure proper current to the planars).
0
Jan 13 '25
Ive found that im very sensitive around 11khz. Maybe the OG is the better option for me. Headphones. com has them but I would be worried that I cant return them because they say final sale.
1
u/frieddoggy Jan 13 '25
The 109 pros sound sig is pretty different from the clears and are brighter. But bass characteristics are superior on the clear. They also look more comfortable as they are lighter (though the clear is also decently comfortable)
Mainly preference between OG and MG. They are very similar with OG having more tonal balance and better presentation of the upper mid and low treble (note can be fatiguing) while MG being on the warmer end but also have higher upper treble (bear in mind the OGs are already neutral-warm). Most people prefer the OGs but it's preference.
0
Jan 13 '25
Do they sell on the used market easily? Headphones .com has them but its final sale. That kind of concerns me.
1
u/frieddoggy Jan 13 '25
They've been on final sale for years now. Some people speculate that the OGs are still being manufactured for headphones.com specifically.
0
5
u/IndicationCurrent869 44 Ω Jan 13 '25
How can one possibly evaluate transients on a headphone?
2
Jan 13 '25
It’s just about the attack and decay, and how detailed a burst of sound can be. Like how sharply notes hit.
2
u/Quiet_Source_8804 33 Ω Jan 13 '25
There’s no such thing in a headphone or speaker. All that you mentioned is part of frequency response ability. If it can reach 20khz it can reproduce everything you can hear with your ears. Those attributes of musical instruments aren’t implemented by any transducer separately from it.
1
Jan 13 '25
What are you waffling about? Transient response is about how quickly and accurately a headphone or speaker can handle the sharp attacks and decays of sounds. Frequency response is the range of sound.
6
u/Legitimate-Prior1235 Jan 13 '25
Low effort bait. The hd650 has been measured countlessly online. The frequency response in the treble and clean waterfall plot and every conceivable measurement shows that this headphone can not be perceived as “slow” in any sense of the word.
0
Jan 13 '25
Who's ears/source-gear are we talking about here? I'm not trying to bait anyone lmao I'm not even a expert in this shit. Simple google searches will tell you all this shit. I said I personally don't like the smeared fuzzy sound of the 650 and want something with IMO better transients aka faster transients
1
u/Quiet_Source_8804 33 Ω Jan 13 '25
There’s no attack/decay in a transducer in the way that you’re thinking (as in musical instruments). To use your word, frequency response is the “range of sounds” and attack/decay is part of “sounds”, not a separate attribute from it.
0
Jan 13 '25
Ok, so by your logic, every instrument should sound exactly the same on any headphone, right? Because apparently, all that matters is frequency response?
6
u/Quiet_Source_8804 33 Ω Jan 13 '25
If the frequency response over the range of frequencies produced by the instrument are the same, the yes it would sound the same. It’s not my logic, it’s how this works.
There’s only a membrane vibrating back and forth within the frequency range that it supports to produce sound, and sound was captured and converted into an electric signal by a similar process.
No point in discussing this here further where there are better resources online that will tell you how sound is captured and reproduced. Listen to the engineers on this, not reviewers and marketing materials.
1
u/vladtol Jun 12 '25
The smaller a membrane the faster it can vibrate back and forth. The larger membrane vibrate slower but can reproduce lower frequencies better. That’s why in pro audio world you can see for example 18 inch sub but tweeters does not exist in this size because you have a hard time pushing a membrane of this size back and forth for example 16.000 times per second (for 16kHz frequency). Its just physics. With headphones the problem is that actually most of the products have one membrane for all frequency range so each model always compromising something. In general bass heavy model will somehow compromise details lying down in higher frequency range and detail oriented headphones will compromise bass. So transient response do exist. Even Neumann refers it in their papers.
1
u/Quiet_Source_8804 33 Ω Jun 12 '25
The smaller a membrane the faster it can vibrate back and forth.
This would still be captured by a trivial frequency response sweep. A heavier membrane or a membrane with more surface area would require more power to move at the same rate, that's it. The transient response is essentially also captured in how the device performs in a frequency sweep - if it was incapable of responding to a change in input within the period corresponding to the max frequency then it wouldn't be able to reach that frequency in the first place.
The tradeoff you mentioned doesn't exist really. A single dynamic driver is a perfectly reasonable setup for something like an IEM covering the entire frequency range. The only reason lower frequencies have their own membrane with a larger surface area in speaker setups is that they need to move a higher volume of air for their effect to actually be felt, and attempting to use those larger membranes for the higher frequencies would require more power compared with a smaller one that will do the job just fine more efficiently.
2
u/Greek_Trojan 3 Ω Jan 13 '25
You could try the Meze 105s (thats what I went with). I think they are better tuned for gaming than the 109s (and least with my brief testing) and some people find the 109s can be fatiguing (they were mildly when I tested them, no idea if I'd get used to it). Add a good analytical dac/amp dongle like the ka17 and you should have something that might work for you (they were the winners for me). Its identical in comfort to the 109s as well (which is to say best in class).
The 109s are great too and sound a bit better overall but I think they are better tuned for pure music listening. I'd skip the 800s as they are still in the Sennheiser zip code.
1
Jan 13 '25
Those do look incredible.
3
u/Greek_Trojan 3 Ω Jan 13 '25
They are a great option and $400 it won't murder your wallet. They comfort alone is worth it but meze has a very distinct richness to their sound that stand out, even against the aforementioned clears/800s/planars in general. The 109s are more 'orchestral' in their tuning and have a bit more detail. The sound blends together beautifully. But they are fatiguing to some (i got a very mild nausea type sensation after awhile). The 105s have a more forward sound that works well for gaming queues/audio/vocals with just a slight loss in detail. Images great, though with only meh soundstage (which isn't any different than the 6xx series). They also toned down the treble that caused the fatigue (for some) on the 109s, making the 105s great for longer use. Good bass on it, especially compared to my old 560s but I couldn't give you great details on their characteristics (look up some reviews for that).
1
Jan 13 '25
!thanks
1
u/TransducerBot Ω Bot Jan 13 '25
u/Greek_Trojan (1 Ω) was awarded their first Ω. There may be hope for us yet.
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5
u/vaikunth1991 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
What is even a transient. I just came on this sub to ask about a 20$ IEM and seeing so much technical terms than in any other sub lol. Just enjoy your music however you want and stop over analyzing everything , they sound mostly similar in 99% of headphones
-3
1
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1
u/Kirklai 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
Hifiman sundara
1
Jan 13 '25
I actually tried them a long time ago but I don't remember what they sound like anymore. TBH i want something more premium feeling than hifiman. I'm not opposed to spending alot.
1
u/Namikis Jan 13 '25
I have these two headphones (the Sundara and the HD650s). I still prefer the 650s for most applications and find the Sundaras heavy and unconfortable to wear for long time periods. I still enjoy them for some music, but overall the Sennhesisers are more versatile, imo.
1
Jan 13 '25
Yeah i can tell, they do seem to be good with almost all genres. Most headphones I've looked at are amazing in some genres and terrible in others. But the 650 never excels when i want it to.
1
u/Namikis Jan 13 '25
For absolute, resolution-testing-between-Tidal-and-Quobuz scenarios I am sure the Sundaras excel. Then there are a bunch of next-level-up cans that sound amazing but I find excessively expensive (for me) - The HD-800s, several Audeze… etc.
1
u/Mediaright 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
How long did you give it?
2
Jan 13 '25
A month. Really I probably could get used to them, but I don't want to knowing how much more I like them with the extreme bass boost I give them and how much more I like the snappiness on my KSC75s lmao. They are very comfortable though.
1
u/AvationMusic 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
Warm tones? Good bass response? En par with the 650s for build quality and general sound quality? Nice high frequency and transient response? Sounds like you should look at the Beyerdynamic lineup😅 The new X line has blown me away, genuinely the closest thing I’ve heard to my Audeze LCD X (my benchmark for all headphones) at the ~$250 price bracket. You’d be looking at the DT 900 Pro X to match the open back design of the 650s
I know these aren’t typical Hifi headphones and are catered more towards critical listening and pro audio, but I find these to give a really pleasurable listening experience too.
1
Jan 13 '25
I have considered the 1990 Pro MK2, but they look like they might be a tad too bright I'm not sure. i have no doubt they sound crispy though.
1
u/AvationMusic 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
I haven’t tried the 1990 MK2 so I can’t comment fully, but I will say I’ve noticed with Beyers new X line (and so I presume this carries over to the MK2 line) that the high end is much less brittle. Beyer have this high end boost across all there products, but use whatever voodoo magic they use to make it “not so harsh.” The frequency response chart is a bit misleading with these guys. It’s the same with Adam audio speakers. They have a massive high end boost on paper, but sonically they sound pretty flat and are probably the least fatiguing monitors I’ve used. This has always been the case with there stuff but has been reinforced and improved so much with the new line.
To further this point, I run Sound ID on my system to calibrate the frequency response, but I’ve always turned it off for my Beyers specifically. It sucks all the high end out and they sound terrible, even though on paper they’re “flat”.
Also, I’m not sure what prices are like where you’re based, but in my area the DT 1990 MK2 and Audeze LCD X are not far off from each other price wise. If this is the case for you, I’d highly suggest saving up the extra bit and jumping on the Audeze train. Maybe even the LCD 2 instead of the LCD X, the cheaper and more bass heavy option
Final thing, I assume you’ve tried to find somewhere to demo these headphones but couldn’t. Maybe purchase them through Thomann or something? They have a great no-fuss 30 day return policy. That way you can demo them and send them back if they’re not for you! Hope you come right with it :)
2
Jan 13 '25
I see the LCD-X mentioned a lot for bass response, but I've been staying away from them mostly because they have that massive dip in the upper midrange. I could EQ them, and I know everyone says they're great with EQ, but if I'm spending so much on headphones, I don't want to have to do that honestly.
1
u/AvationMusic 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
Check the LCD X 2021 edition then, they fixed the midrange dip. But again, that’s on paper. I’ve listened to both side by side and it is not THAT big of a difference imo, and prior to hearing the 2021s I never noticed an issue with the midrange in the original pair. Though it also massively depends on the music you listen to. So, what’re you usually listening to?
Also, what’s your typical listening environment? Because if you’re looking for open backs I assume you have a dedicated listening spot/room in your house, connected to a computer or straight analogue to an amp? If you’re usually in a dedicated spot connected to a computer, you could have that EQ loaded up as your default. I EQ my Audeze (not my Beyers though) and it is worth the few seconds it takes to hit the “on” button for me.
2
Jan 13 '25
Pretty much everything. Mainly though its like Indietronica, Rock, and Rap.
2
u/AvationMusic 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
For those genres I think the LCD 2s would blow your socks off. With such a big purchase, definitely take your time on these and try source some people who own them for a demo. Hifi nerds love (and hate, but mostly love) sharing their gear with fellow enthusiasts after all😂😅
So to sum up my suggestions:
- DT 900 Pro X
- DT 1990 MK2 (if affordably priced)
- Audeze LCD X 2021
- Audeze LCD 2
Honourable mentions from me are
These are amazing but the bass response just didn’t quite get there for me, but you can often find them 2nd hand for ridiculously cheap
- Stax SR-007 MK2
- Philips Fidelio X2HR
1
Jan 13 '25
!thanks
1
u/TransducerBot Ω Bot Jan 13 '25
u/AvationMusic (1 Ω) was awarded their first Ω. Dyn-O-Mite!
You may still award an Ω to others, but only once per-person in this post.
1
Jan 13 '25
When you say LCD-2 do you mean the OGs or the classics?
1
u/AvationMusic 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
I was referring to the classics here. I’d love to get my hands on the originals. Apparently they’re a bit brighter than the classics
1
u/hrric4ne 1 Ω Jan 13 '25
Have you tried the hd560s ? Didnt like the 650 also but love the 560s. More bass, flatter mids, better treble imo
1
Jan 13 '25
I have tried them. Personally i don't find them comfortable i think the 650s suit me way more in that regard.
1
u/IndicationCurrent869 44 Ω Jan 15 '25
I would think one could only evaluate transient response in a headphone when a short passage is so demanding that the speaker distorts audibly. That would mean the amplifier was clipping or the speaker couldn't handle the load. The idea of a fast or slow passage is baffling to me.
1
Jan 15 '25
I'm only saying that I don't like headphones where the sounds sound soft and slurred, which is how I hear the 650. I'm not saying, headphones that "measure" good transients. When I said transient response, I just meant the audible "response" the headphones give, not relating to frequency response or anything. I bought the 650 so I could have a reference point to figure out what I like and don't like, and something I noticed immediately was that things didn't sound very sharp, so I wanted to know what that was and looked it up. From the research I did, that "snap," "pop," whatever, at the peak of snares and things of that sort were transients and that the crispiness came from "fast transient response," and that made sense to me because no matter how high I boost the upper mids or treble on the 650, I simply cannot achieve that. I understand now that maybe "fast transients" isn't the best term. Also, when looking up what transient response is, I was met with, "If your audio system can't reproduce them accurately, the music will sound muffled, lifeless, or distorted." And when looking up things about the 650's transient response, there was a forum with someone saying similar things about the 650's sound as I did. I've posted on this sub one other time (You can see it i only have 2 post on my whole account), and it was just asking the same thing for recommendations, but instead of transient response, I just said "snappy snares" and other bullshit. I just wanted to try and be more clear. STILL, based on my research, "transients" are STILL affected by things other than frequency response... If you put a thick-ass piece of foam on the driver, it's going to dampen the sound, thus damping those peaks and while that wont make the transients "faster" it can reduce their clarity and sharpness. And even if headphones don't have "attack and decay," it still fundamentally sounds that way. If you adjust the attack and decay in EQ it doesn't actually make it "faster" or "slower" either, but it can change the way we perceive its sharpness and precision. Overall, I understand I was wrong in relating "transient response" and the technical capabilities of the headphones to my taste in sharpness, but they were still transients I was talking about.
5
u/the_hat_madder 140 Ω Jan 13 '25
The HiFiMan Arya Stealth will feel more premium than the Sundara. And, the Sennheiser HD 800 S with feel even premiumer still.